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InvisibleMOTH
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When does a belief become a delusion?
    #3133075 - 09/14/04 04:24 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Who decides when someone is "delusional?" How do I know if I'm being delusional? My quality of life has never been better. I can't say what I may or may not be delusional about. I think I'll just enjoy it. But I wanted to know what people think about beliefs vs delusions.


*me*


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: MOTH]
    #3133120 - 09/14/04 05:12 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

all beliefs are delusions based on the definition of belief, imo. But if your beliefs aren't causing any problems, and they improve your quality of life, what's the problem? Ya know?


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Offlinetheorganicdomino
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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: MOTH]
    #3133128 - 09/14/04 05:16 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Well I feel that life is inherently a meaningless illusion, it's existence that is the key - we are here, which is better than not being here, to be seperate from the oneness of everything, to have a subjective perception is the joy of life - as much as becoming one with everything during a level 5 experience is!

The joy of life is to find your own meaning for it, which can only ever be a construct, thus a delusion.

Therefore there's really no difference between beliefs and delusions -only the strength of the belief and intracacies of its construction.


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: SpecialEd]
    #3133135 - 09/14/04 05:24 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SpecialEd said:
all beliefs are delusions based on the definition of belief, imo.  But if your beliefs aren't causing any problems, and they improve your quality of life, what's the problem?  Ya know?





well, there is no problem.  But usually "delusional" is said in such a derogatory manner that I am afraid to tell people about what I think or feel lest they shun or think badly of me.  I probably shouldn't care so much about what other people think, but there it is. 

I haven't lost touch with reality yet.  (although if I ever had it to begin with is debatable!)  :sun:


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: MOTH]
    #3133143 - 09/14/04 05:31 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

de?lu?sion (d-lzhn)
n.

A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness.





Your question is at the heart of the matter: this should become one of these huge threads if people recognise it for its value.

What constitutes a false belief?
In Medievel times scientists had "Round-Earth Delusional Disorder" and were burnt at the stake for it by the church.

In the USSR or the McCarthy era and the USSA today opposing ploitical views can be viewed as delusional. (or terrorist)
If you are on crack and pregnant, being convicted of "poisoning your unborn baby" constitutes a delusion to me, but in the USSA its policy.

How about an abortion activist shooting an abortion doctor, standing over him, emptying out her revolver, then shoving in a new clip and emptying that one out as well and claiming to be a pro life activist? :eek:

You could say science, religion, law, philosophy etc holds the last word.. But each disciplin has conflicting theories within its ranks.

I think a delusion would be a firm belief which is contrary to the beliefs the overwhelming majority of people uphold which is a tragic thing to say as this is basically a description of psychiatric politics.
"you are wrong because we all (like to) think you are wrong"

But the measure of a delusion (as everything is a delusion from a reality no science, logic or magic has yet proven to be accurate) in my view lies in the degree of hinderfullness to yourself and others.

If nobody knows you harbor the delusion that your childhood teddybear whispers the Secret to the Universe in your ear, and the acoustic hallucinations only caused increased happiness to you or are neutral to it, then you are talking about a non-detrimental or even beneficial delusional psychosis.

If you lose sleep over it and call people out of bed to share in the wondrous revelations the border of the detrimental is crossed just like when teddy nudges you awake every night and tells you why you are shit and why you must die :crazy:


Personally: If it is positive or neutral to the happiness of others I am all for bizarre beliefs and experiences. A lady I knew once showed my mother and me her 'big secret': it was a room of her house filled to the brim with a 1.000 teddybears.

She was paranoid at first and made us swear that we wouldn't laugh at her for what she was to show (good reality check of her: many would) and then she decided we could be trusted (good reality check too) and showed us her treasure room. It was impressive to see her, in her 60s, so happy and proud among her teddies like she so obviously was. The teddies did not talk to her, but perhaps she did.
Now she had had a harsh childhood and her marriage ended traumatically too. The room full of teddybears was her way of coping with it. The delusion she needed more bears had died out years before, the room did not cause her grief or discomfort to others but rather it was part of her coping process which, far from ideal, was greatly helped by the delusion she needed a room with 1.000 bears.

So to me the only thing of importance in a delusion is the degree of helpfulness or whether it is detrimental.
Since none holds established truth all are to be labled delusional.

My personal safetyvalve is the "99% rule": I believe the things I fully believe to the conviction of 99%: I believe the insane asylums and prisons are filled to the brim with people who knew the 100% truth, so i keep a margin of error in everything
"...and that is my Anti-Delusion." :evil:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: Asante]
    #3133418 - 09/14/04 09:44 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

the question is "When does a belief become a delusion?"

the answer is "Immediately!"

accross the board, the moment you latch on to the matrix, you are risking all against your precarious perch.

we ought be ready to qualify how functional any of our delusions (beliefs) are, and how compatible they are, but always they are founded upon static knowledge while the world is a constant flux.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3133426 - 09/14/04 09:53 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

^^^ much in agreement with both of the above

the thing is, nothing can be said to be absolutely real. We each have individual, personal realities, and each reality is equally 'true'

therefore the only possible definitions for delusion are

A. delusion in the eyes of society, or going against the current cultural paradigm

and self delusion

i consider self delusion not to be the holding of any belief, but when you dont really believe something yet you pretend you do, you decieve yourself to protect yourself from an unsettelling idea.

For example, if you have experience with god, or have felt his prescence, or have been led to believe in him through some kind of logical inquiry, then that belief (in his existance) is not a delusion, it is true for you

however, many people dont really have any concrete faith or belief, but they pretend to (especially to themselves) because they are to afraid to face alternative possibilities.

So in other words i think delusion is either

A. Contrary to societies ideas

or

B. Deluding yourself into holding a belief that you dont really believe in, if that makes sense

i think delusion is different than hallucination, in that respect


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: MOTH]
    #3133431 - 09/14/04 09:55 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

every little thing we do is based on belief.

delusion is about deception. are you decieving yourself?

well there are many different religions out there, so lots of people are decieving themselves.

is there anything wrong with it? if it leads towards irrational behavior where you start bothing or even as wiccan has pointed out, killed people over beliefs, then i say it can be very bad.

the idea of money=happiness has put tons of people in ruin, and it too is a false belief.

the belief that things will jsut work themselves out can lead to apathy or laziness, and that too can hurt certain aspects of life.

how do you know if your being delusional? one way I think is that you are hurting others directly, another would be if you are hurting yourself.

but what about people who deny their own feelings? those who lie so much, they believe themselves!

I always had this idea that we all experience our own personal truths. what is right and wrong to you may not be the same with me. you may drive a car and believe that there's nothing wrong with it, and I may believe cars are evil. you see the positive (that it helps you get from point a to point b) while, I see the negative (planet pollution). now, we are both right in this situation right?

so who IS the delusional one? you driving the car, or me thinking cars are evil?

the answer is both!

everything we do is based on our own experiences, and therefore we experience our own delusional state.

the thing here is do your best to think of others instead of yourself, and your delusions will be a positive one. being aware of how you react to reality is key. through stillness and focus, we can limit the delusion and see our own personal truths on a deeper level.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: MOTH]
    #3133487 - 09/14/04 10:36 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Contemplate on this...

In a tribe (africa or choose a rainforest place) a child of a family wakes up.Goes out of his tent/hut/residence place and meets with his/her parents announcing to them that he just contacted dead grandpa during his sleep and received what was a message from a relative that went to hunt via hearing his voice in his head.The parents will propably be interested to listen to the message they believe he/she received and maybe comment on it or share their experieces.

Now,the same thing exactly happens somewhere in new york or in an apartement in france (substitute Hut and hunting with our equivalent terms).I believe that the childs experience would not be that valid,maybe occurenses like that could give this child medication for the rest of his life.A Psychiatrist could name that person delusional if he believed that all those contacts were true.....

Its more of a social basis thing.Some people believe in cruficied jesus defeating death and being lifted in the sky,others believe in elephant like gods,some others that your soul goes in other bodies of animals or people.Some believe that life is love,others believe life is sex and money.Who of them are delusional?

Who hasnt got their stories right?

How can we tell?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: kaiowas]
    #3133493 - 09/14/04 10:37 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:
every little thing we do is based on belief.





I think that is incorrect.
what we do is based upon monkey see monkey do, and practice.
even the judgement faculty is rote,
however,
we have the ability to see the moment and steer among our repertoire.

this selection option may be a bit of an opportunity outside of the mechanical nature of personality.

beliefs are not as primal as experience - though they become integrated with it.

to seem more lofty (or less responsible) we practice attributing judgement to our beliefs (especially if shared) but it is really our selves and our accumulated experience.


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: kaiowas]
    #3134648 - 09/14/04 04:08 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks everyone for responding. 

Quote:

kaiowas said:

the thing here is do your best to think of others instead of yourself, and your delusions will be a positive one.  being aware of how you react to reality is key.  through stillness and focus, we can limit the delusion and see our own personal truths on a deeper level.




I try not to let the delusion overwelm me.  Like I'll chuckle at it, and say, "wow, I'm weird, lets not take that too seriously" and stuff.  It persists, but I guess it's more an amusement for me then anything else.  When I started having this delusion, I sorta wondered if I was going crazy...the social stigma thing on what is "normal" and all that. 

thanks again  :heart:


*me*


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: MOTH]
    #3134695 - 09/14/04 04:20 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

ALL beliefs are delusional to an extent. We all have our own reality, but we are none of us completely correct.


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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3134707 - 09/14/04 04:22 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

want to chat?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: BlueOrb]
    #3134724 - 09/14/04 04:26 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

not now... I got to go to the grovery store right now so no time...


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OfflineBlueOrb
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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3134755 - 09/14/04 04:31 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

ok, some other time...


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OfflineGomp
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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3134928 - 09/14/04 05:08 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

i use to say, we are all right, up to the moment "you" speak. :P


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: MOTH]
    #3134930 - 09/14/04 05:09 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The key is to not care whether or not you're crazy.

People call me crazy when I talk about deep things all the time. I usually respond, "Yeah, you're right!" and make a mental note that reads "close-minded" next to their name on my mental list. (Don't worry, they're written in pencil, not pen.)

"Sanity" or "Insanity" is depicted by society's standards. (As someone above mentioned, the first scientists to declare the world round were burnt at the stake.) By thinking of one's self as "sane" at all times, and being frightened at the doubt of it, one is effectively clinging onto an ego-monster.

Think the situation through metaphorically... So how are you supposed to float free down the river of life if you're clinging to a safety line? The concept of "Sanity" is a safety line. It makes us feel safe.. like we don't have to doubt ourselves.

That last part is emphasized for a reason... it's quite important. Self doubt is the only way to self improvement. If you never doubt yourself, you'll never see your errors. And if you never see your errors, it's impossible to better yourself.


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OfflineBlueOrb
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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3134949 - 09/14/04 05:13 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

You have to know insanity in order to know sanity, one can't exist without the other! This diad is a universal truth!


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Offlinedeff
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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3134987 - 09/14/04 05:20 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Exactly, you have to let go of the edge of the pool to reach the deep end :smile:

One who holds on can only go so far, but they have the reassurance of returning. Of course, this reassurance is often one's anchor point for further development and is hindering. Just relax and don't worry about sanity, as the label of sanity exists only outside a person's own perception, directed at them. It is nothing important :smile:


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OfflineBlueOrb
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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: deff]
    #3135008 - 09/14/04 05:25 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Well put!


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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3135013 - 09/14/04 05:26 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

What you said makes a lot of sense.  I think that most of my life I was made to think that there was something wrong with me...lots of meds and hospital visits and such.  But after awhile, I realized that I am not my diagnosis', I am just me. 

So I am at a point where I am beginning to feel comfortable in my crazyness for the first time ever.  I still am wondering if I am nuts because of some stuff but I'm almost able to feel okay about it.  Like 'whatever'.  Insanity vs sanity is an interesting topic for sure. 

:sun:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: MOTH]
    #3135054 - 09/14/04 05:38 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

When does a belief become a delusion?
that is a funny question :wink: if I had a belief I had an imaginary, "only visible to me" friend cald Robert, and told people about him and talked to him at any given circumstances.
-people would call me crazy right? and maybe put me in an asylum? what i say to that is (may have said it here before though)
How come you end up at a mental house if you have a invisible non-exist ant friend unless you call it God?


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: Asante]
    #3135093 - 09/14/04 05:50 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:


My personal safetyvalve is the "99% rule": I believe the things I fully believe to the conviction of 99%: I believe the insane asylums and prisons are filled to the brim with people who knew the 100% truth, so i keep a margin of error in everything
"...and that is my Anti-Delusion." :evil:




Thanks for your input, Wiccan Seeker.  I think I'll try and remember to go by that rule also.  :sun:


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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: MOTH]
    #3135117 - 09/14/04 05:56 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

live and let live... all you need is love. if you need any friendly psychoanalysis/conversation you can PM me, ill try my best to listen or help, whichever you prefer...

peace Ellemysh


--------------------
Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: kaiowas]
    #3135369 - 09/14/04 06:54 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

...the thing here is do your best to think of others instead of yourself, and your delusions will be a positive one.

Sounds good in theory, but history does not suport your hypothesis. Conversion to religions and control, i.e. Drug War, are often done "in the best interests" of the one being controlled by the Missionaries.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: Swami]
    #3135399 - 09/14/04 07:00 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

you're right swami, on a mass scale, my hypothesis wouldn't work, because the interests of some may conflict with interests of others.

maybe I should say on an individual level perhaps?

or maybe a delusions without ego....

have to think on this more now  :thumbup:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3135423 - 09/14/04 07:04 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

kaiowas said:
every little thing we do is based on belief.





I think that is incorrect.
what we do is based upon monkey see monkey do, and practice.
even the judgement faculty is rote,
however,
we have the ability to see the moment and steer among our repertoire.

this selection option may be a bit of an opportunity outside of the mechanical nature of personality.

beliefs are not as primal as experience - though they become integrated with it.

to seem more lofty (or less responsible) we practice attributing judgement to our beliefs (especially if shared) but it is really our selves and our accumulated experience.




hmm that's a good point, i think I might have gotten confused with beliefs integrating with our experience.  it's just I'm referring to the decisions we make, are based on what we have experienced differently.  our decisions or judgements of what to do is based on what has already happened before combined with what we learned previously.  a situation would work for one person but not for the other, and so they would have a different view on how things in reality works.

hehe this is an awesome thread!!!  :heart:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: Todcasil]
    #3135453 - 09/14/04 07:09 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Todcasil said:
live and let live... all you need is love.  if you need any friendly psychoanalysis/conversation you can PM me, ill try my best to listen or help, whichever you prefer...

peace Ellemysh




Thank you, I might take you up on that.  :heart:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: MOTH]
    #3136179 - 09/14/04 10:01 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Generally speaking, when a belief which is the formulation of a Universal Truth becomes interpreted individually and exclusively, delusional thinking occurs. A 'Christ delusion' like the one in 'The Three Christs of Ypsilanti' - a book about the Ypsilanti mental hospital in Michigan, when three patients with the same delusion were put together describes delusional thinking.

In most cases, delusional thinking involves 'ideas of reference,' whereby the individual perceives connections with him/herself that do not exist objectively, e.g., the TV anchor is giving ME a hidden message. The cocaine-induced paranoid delusion that the random car door slamming means 'they're' coming for ME.

Such is the case with schizophrenia, paranoid type, or cocaine-induced psychosis. If a spiritual belief contributes to a whole and balanced life which partakes of transpersonal, universal values such as Compassion, or Wisdom-seeking, or virtues - qualities that enhance human development across moral, psychological, social, affective and physically healthful domains; and it is deemed available to anyone (not idiosyncratic), then the belief is a legitimate form of religious experience, not a delusion.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: When does a belief become a delusion? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3137759 - 09/15/04 07:21 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

well put, marktheagnostic
but
in view of all beliefs being subject to the nature of delusion, or made of the same material, here is a good point at which the concept of "emptiness" can enter.
i.e. after a fulfilling shot of "realization" comes the sobering measure of "thatness" (or "thisness") tempered by certainty of "emptiness".
course that is deluded as well
(to the max ...or not, moving right along...)


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