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 Sterile
mushroom lover
Registered: 03/16/01
Posts: 2,535
Loc: under the Amanita
Last seen: 11 days, 14 hours
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 Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! 
#313176 - 05/09/01 02:05 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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I want to know if any of you use Ryches revolution in PF style jars...(Ramsey-Seal) Is there a lower contamination ratio evident? I m shure there is , but just want to know if it worths the extra work....cos i think it might be a little bit of an overkill...opinions?
YOU WANNA GET HIGH
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The Source Of The Force
Is The Power Of The Mind
"if you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - timothy leary"
Anno: "-I can do anything with those clouds!"
Annos Tek
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lateshroom
newbie
Registered: 04/24/01
Posts: 39
Last seen: 17 years, 11 months
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 Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Sterile]
#313347 - 05/09/01 06:09 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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i'm not using it as you might know.. but that's only because i simply don't understand WHERE i am supposed to stick the tape at all. Hawk got me so confused on this one!
and that I was just doing what was necessary to stay comfortable while I waited to die...
code
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and then there was light
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Anonymous
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 Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Sterile]
#313520 - 05/09/01 09:41 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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"Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! "
There are no ramsey seal users, those that try it once, never use it again....... I once took a 100% loss of jars, they all had the 'ramsey-seal' .
Hawke invented the 'ramsey seal'?
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Sterile
mushroom lover
Registered: 03/16/01
Posts: 2,535
Loc: under the Amanita
Last seen: 11 days, 14 hours
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Anonymous]
#313602 - 05/09/01 11:06 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes, if i remember right........and its all about not leaving the verm touch the substrate, by the use of a tin foil "border" in between them....at least thats what i finally understud although i got really confuzed as well lateshroom.....
I think its quite smart....just by observing the needle which carries pieces of substrate(rice,birdseed...) in ,and on the top of the verm layer, you can tell that a contam \, uses them as steps to your lovely jar....are you shure you did it right Pavlov's Dog?
YOU WANNA GET HIGH
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The Source Of The Force
Is The Power Of The Mind
"if you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - timothy leary"
Anno: "-I can do anything with those clouds!"
Annos Tek
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The Messiah
member
Registered: 01/03/01
Posts: 55
Last seen: 22 years, 15 days
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Sterile]
#313612 - 05/09/01 11:20 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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filter disks anyone?
peace, -=To0dLeS=-
TM
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[green]peace[/green], [blue]~(To0dLeS)~[/blue]
TM
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Taz
veteran
Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 1,090
Last seen: 22 years, 13 days
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Sterile]
#313613 - 05/09/01 11:21 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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dude, don't use ramsey seal, this is STUPID, do u like failure are something??
"Out of chaos...comes order...." AND THE FSR..
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"Most of the world's problems are caused by people taking things that do not belong to them..."
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Sterile
mushroom lover
Registered: 03/16/01
Posts: 2,535
Loc: under the Amanita
Last seen: 11 days, 14 hours
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Taz]
#313635 - 05/09/01 11:47 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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please specify.....dont just say its stupid.
It might be, but a answer like yours, is not much better...
Any personal experience make you say that?
What exactly did you do?(if)
YOU WANNA GET HIGH
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The Source Of The Force
Is The Power Of The Mind
"if you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - timothy leary"
Anno: "-I can do anything with those clouds!"
Annos Tek
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MNmyc
enthusiast
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 175
Loc: MN
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Sterile]
#313637 - 05/09/01 11:48 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm not sure that I qualify because I tried it with rye jars. And it would have worked fine if I didn't screw the water ratio.
They all got taken by yeast.
Damn good bread. MMM.
*I figure I learned you either want air exchange or you don't, and so far all or nothing has been better than some air but not through the seal...
Take it easy. And if it's easy, take it twice!
this excerpt and all characters contained within are entirely fictional. Any similarity to reality or not is completely coincidental...Edited by MNmyc on 05/10/01 01:54 AM.
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Life is what happens while you're making other plans...
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Anonymous
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Sterile]
#313644 - 05/10/01 12:01 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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OK, i'll paint you a clear picture of it....... imagine this:
The ramsey seal, you have your substrate, above the substrate is suspended a peice of tin foil, pressed in a 'cup' shape, filled with a little bit of verm. fine. When you pop the needle through the thin verm layer, this leaves a hole, actually 4 holes. After you take the needle out, vermiculite starts to 'pour' through the holes like an hourglass, leaving lots of airiated space and loose vermiculite. Btw, contams do not 'walk' or 'step' down, they just fall in the form of dust and rest in the spot that they fall, till they get blown or shaken or something disturbs them. Usually what happens with a verm barrier in a 1/2 pint is that someone picks the jar up, tilts it, and whatever was 'laying' on top of the verm, usually where the inoculation holes are, gets shuffled until it works its way down to a moist spot on the substrate, and then grows from there. Or the the rim was not wiped. The ramsey seal makes it very easy for this to happen.
Hopefully that might explain a little better for you. At least thats MY reasons for not using it.... PF verm layer works good. Why change it? If you have BAD mold in your area you can always use a thicker verm layer.
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Sterile
mushroom lover
Registered: 03/16/01
Posts: 2,535
Loc: under the Amanita
Last seen: 11 days, 14 hours
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Anonymous]
#313657 - 05/10/01 12:23 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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What do you mean by "vermiculite starts to 'pour' through' the
holes"??????? You mean vermiculite fits so nicely through the needles holes that it "pours" through them??????
What are using? Vermiculite dust??? Or those big elephant syringes? :) No way the verm pours through them holes....i believe there is no reason for the ramsey seal to not work.(if done properly)....and by steping down, i mean that a small bit of rice, can easily pass through the contamination to a near by bit. :)
YOU WANNA GET HIGH
--------------------
The Source Of The Force
Is The Power Of The Mind
"if you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - timothy leary"
Anno: "-I can do anything with those clouds!"
Annos Tek
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Sterile
mushroom lover
Registered: 03/16/01
Posts: 2,535
Loc: under the Amanita
Last seen: 11 days, 14 hours
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Sterile]
#313658 - 05/10/01 12:26 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Oh , and even if some, does pour in, it has no contams on it...(talking for 2,3 or 4 little bits, who where below the surface of the top layer....) +that they have no place to go...(substrate is underneath,remember?
YOU WANNA GET HIGH
--------------------
The Source Of The Force
Is The Power Of The Mind
"if you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - timothy leary"
Anno: "-I can do anything with those clouds!"
Annos Tek
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Anonymous
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Sterile]
#313672 - 05/10/01 01:02 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Beleive me, in every bag of vermiculite, there is both fine and course grade verm chunks, making up the whole bulk of it. Ok, now lets say a couple of peices DO fall through the holes... before they fell through, the verm was supposed to be 'compact' between the foil and the lid, follow, now that a few grains slipped by... then a few more (unless the jars are not touched at ALL throughout the incubation), now the verm is no longer 'compact' between the lid and the foil because some of it fell through, also now the verm is more easily 'shuffled' around in the 'ramsey pool', causing even more verm to fall through + anything else that has landed on there by now. Do you see what i'm saying here? You could try it and if it works for you go with it, maybe even on one jar just to see. That was my 1 experience with it long ago.
So what do you think sterile, does this make sense to you? :)
Btw, I 'think' it was lizardking who wrote up the MMGG which had the 'ramsey seal' . I dont think ryche hawk spent much time making PFtek variations, but as always, I could be wrong. .
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DarK_SavioR
addict
Registered: 05/06/01
Posts: 454
Loc: Down the Street
Last seen: 21 years, 5 months
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Anonymous]
#313682 - 05/10/01 01:35 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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I thaught on the ramsey seal you still have some vermiculite on top of your cake, then the foil, then more vermiculite. I think the purpose of it is to create a 'filter' and then after the cakes are colonized with the mycelium you don't use the vermiculite that was on the top of the foil. The purpose of that, from what I understand, is to remove any vermiculite that could contain possible contaminations that creeped in through the holes. If thats not how you're suppose to do the ramsey seal I think it should be, heh. This way, I imagine, would be more sterile and decrease the chances of contams. Then again, I could be really far off ; ) The instructions for the ramsey-seal are confusing. Also, on the idea of who created the ramsey-seal... wonder if there name was ramsey? hehe
"My only fear of death is reincarnation."
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Vitamin C chase, kill the taste. You can tell its nasty by the look on my face.
Ralphster44 & The FSR!
All thats stated above is for humor and a lie!!
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whyIdied
member
Registered: 04/26/01
Posts: 88
Loc: The exact center of the e...
Last seen: 22 years, 2 months
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Sterile]
#313724 - 05/10/01 03:33 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have used the Ramsey seal with a wonderful success rate. But I am going to try the original soon because I guess MANY people dispute me on the worthwhile-ness of Ramsey. I would like to do a small comparison experiment...if I ever do (probably will) I will post the results.
I think the "hourglass" problem is why most people get screwed. I have been able to avoid that problem most of the time.
...slow moves, sweet feet...
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...slow moves, sweet feet...
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Green Fever
journeyman
Registered: 05/15/00
Posts: 43
Loc: S. Africa
Last seen: 21 years, 8 months
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 Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Anonymous]
#313815 - 05/10/01 08:38 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Okay, most of you are wrong about this. I have used the ramsey seal many time with good results.
The ramsey seal is not developed to replace the PF method of sealing a jar. In fact it does not offer much more protection. It was developed by someone wishing to use a verm layer in jars bigger then 1/2 pint or pint jars.Remember this method was developed as a alternative to filter discs and before polifil was thought of as a filter.
As most of you know, when quart jars are used, they are not filled to the top with grain. Now how the hell do you use a verm seal above the substrate. If you put it directly on top, then it gets fucked up when you shake the jar. So seperate it using foil.
When quart are used, one doesn't inocculate in 4 places. Only in one, then shake the jar to distribute. So don't go making a too big hole in the foil with the needle by moving it around.
In short, the ramsey seal works, but don't use it for pints or 1/2 pints. I do think that the polifil option is better nowadays.
peace,
~GF~
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 zero
???
Registered: 11/01/99
Posts: 234
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Green Fever]
#313823 - 05/10/01 08:46 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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the ramsey-seal works just fine..
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sk8 or die
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DarK_SavioR
addict
Registered: 05/06/01
Posts: 454
Loc: Down the Street
Last seen: 21 years, 5 months
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Green Fever]
#313842 - 05/10/01 09:28 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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That makes perfect sense ; )
Thanks for straightening that up, if I hadn't found that out I would have probably tried it out on 1/2 pint jars.
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Vitamin C chase, kill the taste. You can tell its nasty by the look on my face.
Ralphster44 & The FSR!
All thats stated above is for humor and a lie!!
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ar393
old timer
Registered: 01/26/00
Posts: 702
Loc: VT
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: DarK_SavioR]
#313909 - 05/10/01 11:07 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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do a backwards ramsey seal, i have always done this and it works great....
put in your substrate
add the verm layer
then place foil
lids, more foil
this also makes it almost impossible to for extra water to get into the jars (if you make the lids even slightly tight)
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ar393
old timer
Registered: 01/26/00
Posts: 702
Loc: VT
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: ar393]
#313911 - 05/10/01 11:10 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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or if you are using bigger jars, fo the ramsey seall the proper way, or use polyfill or filter discs, or just use a layer of foil like i do :)
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Anonymous
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: ar393]
#314292 - 05/10/01 07:24 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Greenfever, that makes sense, especially with 1 hole in the center, being very careful.
Now one way that the 'ramsey' seal might be good even with half pints would be to 'press the foil flat down the sides, all the way down to the substrate, and make it level with it, pressing the foil around the edges, kinda like this |___| shape, then filling it with verm, this might give a 'little' extra protection.
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Sterile
mushroom lover
Registered: 03/16/01
Posts: 2,535
Loc: under the Amanita
Last seen: 11 days, 14 hours
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Anonymous]
#314467 - 05/11/01 01:33 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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well.....as i see it....there are no "ramsey-seal" users....
cos as i see :) ramsey seal, means a completely different thing to every shroomer on this earth,heh
Pavlov's dog, with your last reply u finnaly pictured what I thought it was....and if u do that: |_| type of thing,verm wouldnt slip in substrate would it? so it is some better protection.....
YOU WANNA GET HIGH
--------------------
The Source Of The Force
Is The Power Of The Mind
"if you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - timothy leary"
Anno: "-I can do anything with those clouds!"
Annos Tek
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Anonymous
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Sterile]
#314469 - 05/11/01 01:40 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah, I guess its good then, I've always interpreted it as more of a \___/ , like the instructions say, to make a 'pool'.
guess thats settled then
:-)
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Taz
veteran
Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 1,090
Last seen: 22 years, 13 days
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Sterile]
#314476 - 05/11/01 02:03 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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sterile, I'm going to tell you this...I like pavlov's dog took a 100% loss from using ramsey seal. now if it had been 50 % I might try to work with it more but after a 100% loss...forget it. this is why it's dumb. now quit using all the sock puppets to back up your arguement, do you hear people saying good things about the ramsey seal every day? no. why? because it sucks ass, It's not worth the time or the effort, anybody who has tried it will agree. I like all the newbies who showed up all of a sudden talking about how great it is, BULLSHIT, Don't try to convience me any different because it don't work, it won't work, and it is a stupid ass thing to do so get off it will ya???
"Out of chaos...comes order...." AND THE FSR..
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"Most of the world's problems are caused by people taking things that do not belong to them..."
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Anonymous
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Taz]
#314482 - 05/11/01 02:30 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Geez taz, chill out my brutha... I felt that this was more of a freindly debate myself 
Seriously taz, the 'ramsey seal' method would actually work, though not neccessary, if it were utilized in the ' |___| ' form, but if used the way the MMGG, which is a -PF-TEK- ripoff, says to do it "by making a small pool" like this --> \____/ , then it is crap.
whaddaya think there taz ol' buddy?!
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Anonymous
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Taz]
#314484 - 05/11/01 02:37 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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I too, had a 100% failure rate using the ramsey seal my first and only time.
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Sterile
mushroom lover
Registered: 03/16/01
Posts: 2,535
Loc: under the Amanita
Last seen: 11 days, 14 hours
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Taz]
#314736 - 05/11/01 11:38 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Taz-taz-taz......,heh, do u think we all have nothing else to do, but sit right here on the shroomery and make sock puppets? Well, this might surprise you,but no.
I have better things to do.And to prove to you how outrageous your theory is....just take another look at this thread....(CAREFULLY THIS TIME)......little Taz reads on......and all of a sudden!! He realizes that....hey! "What am i stupid?" "Sterile has no reason to allege that the ramsey-seal works! In fact, he is trying to find out!"......heh, this is not a flame Taz.Before you attack your keyboard now,listen....
I have noticed that you are quite excitable lately....calm down mate, and if there is something that bothers you, speak up!
As you know, this site is full of young+old mycologists, hippies,ravers,shamans(?) ,and generaly,people kind & sensitive,with warm hearts,that will be glad to hear you.(including me!)...So dont be shy, relax, and give it a second thought before you...ATTACK! heh.bye!
YOU WANNA GET HIGH
--------------------
The Source Of The Force
Is The Power Of The Mind
"if you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - timothy leary"
Anno: "-I can do anything with those clouds!"
Annos Tek
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Maddoc
Resurrected!
Registered: 05/06/01
Posts: 121
Loc: London, UK, Basel, CH or ...
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Sterile]
#314849 - 05/11/01 01:34 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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I've used the Ramsey-Seal 3 times and never had any trouble? Whats with this?
However, I've never tried the straight PF way, and it might be a bit better but its always seemed to me that during boiling the Verm for the seal will get "Wet" and not do its job properly where as with the Ramsey seal I dont seem to have many problems.
However, I'll try the staight PF method on my next set of jars (gonna be Trops) and I'll see what happens. How about that?
Whoa! Where my Fingers?
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"Your Gimmiky Restraunt - By J.R. Bennigans"
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them_26
enthusiast
Registered: 05/02/01
Posts: 204
Last seen: 20 years, 10 months
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Maddoc]
#314897 - 05/11/01 02:31 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Why not split your next batch between the two methods since you haven't had any problems w/the Ramsey-Seal and post the results. I believe unless you are using both,at the same time, w/ the same strain, substrate, environmantal factors,etc., some people will have a hard time knowing what to believe. Implementing the scientific method and experimenting for yourself is the only way to be sure no other factors affected the flush. Though there seem to be alot of spirits here who have had problems w/ Ramsey.
Hey Taz,
While I am positive from reading your post that you have more experience than I regarding the cultivation of these gifts. You shouldn't assume all newbies(or lowly strangers such as myself) are completely ignorant concerning the topic. Maybe some simply don't know shit about computers or the internet and have just started using the information highway. Shit bro, I didn't even know you could have a free e-mail account until a couple months ago.
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Taz
veteran
Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 1,090
Last seen: 22 years, 13 days
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Sterile]
#315694 - 05/12/01 01:19 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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ok, ok, I apologize for jumping on you sterile, and anybody else who I affended, I have read numerous post where people were pissed from useing this method. it's not vary popular for a reason. and just so all know's, I do not claim to know more than everybody, I do know more than some and some people know more than me, ok, it may work for you but it didn't work for me at all and there is no way I will try it again. you are right about the info sharing sterile, absolutely right. I know I sometimes express my views to strongly but you got to respect that I stand behind what I believe in, just like I respect you for your input, I don't mean to be an ass and am sorry for being that way, it's just that I want to see newbies succeed and when someone post garbage I know for a fact they will fail you better believe I'll be there to say so.
I hear people telling newbies to try shit there first time and it's bullshit. a newbie should do the most simple thing then move on. this will instill greater understanding for them. ok tell a newbie to try the 50/50+ casing tek next week they post WTF everthing is lost to contams, discouragement sets in, some will never try it again because they feel they can't succeed. you want to help people, help them understand, it's like taking a third grader and trying to teach them advance trig when they don't understand the simple math yet, do you see where I'm coming from?
It's all good sterile I don't see you as a flamer I've seen many of your post and your not like that, sorry for being an ass to you I guess I missunderstood where you was going with this that's all. peace broziiiiiiiiiii
"Out of chaos...comes order...." AND THE FSR..
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"Most of the world's problems are caused by people taking things that do not belong to them..."
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Sterile
mushroom lover
Registered: 03/16/01
Posts: 2,535
Loc: under the Amanita
Last seen: 11 days, 14 hours
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Taz]
#315758 - 05/12/01 02:33 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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:) cool Taz , its ok, i like the way you protect newbies... :)
I wish all of the shroomerites where so nice to them :)
Most are though!
And, yes the normal pf verm layer ,is more simple than the.....
"Ramsey-SEALS"(!!!)
LOL
YOU WANNA GET HIGH
--------------------
The Source Of The Force
Is The Power Of The Mind
"if you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - timothy leary"
Anno: "-I can do anything with those clouds!"
Annos Tek
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Psilocybin
member
Registered: 01/30/01
Posts: 128
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Sterile]
#315764 - 05/12/01 02:41 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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I tried ramsey seals on a half dozen jars that all got contamed, although it was my fault, water content was way off and I bioled my jars in a pot with a lid off. But now I use pint jars with polyfill. Polyfill is just polyester fiber, take the lid of your jar and cut a 1/2" hole and pull a big wad of polyfill through till it sticks out both ends and fits snugly. Then when you want to sterilize just fill your jars with substrate, put tinfoil on top, and sterilize.
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Sterile
mushroom lover
Registered: 03/16/01
Posts: 2,535
Loc: under the Amanita
Last seen: 11 days, 14 hours
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Psilocybin]
#315816 - 05/12/01 04:11 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Where can one find polyfill?
YOU WANNA GET HIGH
--------------------
The Source Of The Force
Is The Power Of The Mind
"if you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - timothy leary"
Anno: "-I can do anything with those clouds!"
Annos Tek
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Myconoclastic
Lesbian
Registered: 05/04/01
Posts: 23
Loc: Washington, DC
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Psilocybin]
#315822 - 05/12/01 04:20 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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When I first started out, I used the regular old vermiculite seal, and got 100% contamination. Twice. I then tried the Ramsey seal (with the foil in the l__l position) and only one of the jars got contaminated. I've used it ever since (about ten times total), never losing more than one jar per batch. I think that both seals work well enough, and that contamination is probably caused mostly by other factors. (I think my second attempt failed because the contents of the syringe were contaminated.)
Space is almost infinite. As a matter of fact, we think it is infinite.
Dan Quayle, former US VP, head of the Space Council
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Anonymous
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Sterile]
#315847 - 05/12/01 04:59 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Sterile, you can get polifill at any craft/fabric store.... it comes in a bag about the size of a pillow. It is used for stuffing, it should say 100% polyester fiber.
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Sterile
mushroom lover
Registered: 03/16/01
Posts: 2,535
Loc: under the Amanita
Last seen: 11 days, 14 hours
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Re: Ramsey-Seal users...SHOW UP! [Re: Anonymous]
#316014 - 05/12/01 11:41 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thanx Pav.d....
YOU WANNA GET HIGH
--------------------
The Source Of The Force
Is The Power Of The Mind
"if you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - timothy leary"
Anno: "-I can do anything with those clouds!"
Annos Tek
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