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 Aldous
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 9/11: the worst of both worlds? 
#3128914 - 09/13/04 10:21 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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If you believe the official version of the 9/11 attacks, and the only reaction you can express toward alternative hypotheses is flaming, just don't read on. Thanks.
There seems to be quite a debate among 'conspirationists' about whether the Bush administration planned the attacks or merely let them happen. My opinion is that it's a bit of both.
Follow my speculation for a while.
Attacks seem to be planned and prevented just about all the time, be they more or less spectacular. It seems obvious therefore, that if someone in power needed an attack to happen for matters of foreign and domestic policy, there would be no need to contrive one from zero. The only imperative would be to pick a promising plan of attack among those the FBI is currently spying on, and make sure it succeeds.
So what I'm saying is Bin Laden really planned 9/11. Was he ordered to do so? Did he know the FBI knew and would let it happen? Why bother? He planned the attacks. All the FBI had to do was to understand what was being planned and fill in the blanks. Maybe even take the whole thing one step further.
I've read (but not researched thoroughly) that Mohammed Atta had written a will, in which he states what should be done with his body after his death. Could it be that he didn't know his body would be vaporized (unlike his passport), and that a very different kind of suicide attack was planned, where some planes would be hijacked, but which would turn out very differently? Maybe once the intelligence people heard about the hijacking plans, the idea to make the planes crash into landmark buildings came from them? And once the planes were hijacked, the terrorists didn't control anything anymore. Everything was done to ensure a spectacular outcome, and destroy some strategic targets amidst the confusion (WTC 7). Maybe something went wrong with one of the planes, and they had to activate plan B, a missile, to hit the Pentagon. You get the picture.
What I'm saying is that in most conflict situations, the opposition is not what is seems. It's not about the two parties involved, the real struggle is between escalation and pacification. In Israel and Palestine, for instance, the Israeli (secular and religious) right (and a part of the 'left') needs Hamas, Jihad and Hizbollah, and vice versa. What they're after, what justifies their existence, is the need of confrontation and escalation. They don't want to solve the conflict, they want to fight, because they need conflict for a host of reasons.
Same with Bush/Bin Laden, they're after the same thing, confrontation. They had the same goals on 9/11. Is it really unimaginable, then, that they could have worked together (with Bin Laden either knowing it or not, doesn't matter) to bring about the desired clash? For the neocons, there were almost only advantages: it was very easy to prove the attack came from Bin Laden, because it did, and they could push their agenda as planned. Only a few details were wrong: if they had had the choice, they would have sent in Iraqis instead of Saudis, no questions would have been asked. And there was no real need to plant so much evidence linking Atta and friends to the attacks (like his passport on top of the smoking WTC rubble, his strange alleged visit to Johnelle Bryant, and some other oddities). They clearly overdid that part.
All right, this is all speculation, but as far as alternative theories go, I think there's worse than this one. Comments?
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 RandalFlagg
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 Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Aldous]
#3130139 - 09/13/04 02:54 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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In Israel and Palestine, for instance, the Israeli (secular and
religious) right (and a part of the 'left') needs Hamas, Jihad and
Hizbollah, and vice versa. What they're after, what justifies their
existence, is the need of confrontation and escalation. They don't
want to solve the conflict, they want to fight, because they need
conflict for a host of reasons.
??? Israel spends a huge amount of its governmental budget on
self-defense(which is a drain on resources). The Israeli public
is, I am sure, frightened to death about being killed in terrorist
bombings. I don't think the Israelis want the conflict that they
find themselves in. It doesn't justify their existences. It is just
something that they have to deal with.
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Divided_Sky
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Aldous]
#3130435 - 09/13/04 04:28 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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I won't flame but I have to ask, if you were President, would you as a person deliberately allow 911 to happen, or plan and ok it? Do you think anyone you know would do such a thing?
If not, why would assume someone whom you have never met would be capable of such an awful and inhuman thing?
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Zahid
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3130457 - 09/13/04 04:33 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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??? Israel spends a huge amount of its governmental budget on
self-defense(which is a drain on resources). The Israeli public
is, I am sure, frightened to death about being killed in terrorist
bombings. I don't think the Israelis want the conflict that they
find themselves in. It doesn't justify their existences. It is just
something that they have to deal with.
??? Israel spends a huge amount of its governmental budget on illegal settlements (which is against a U.N. resolution). The Palestinian public is, I am sure, frightened to death about being killed in Apache-spear headed terrorist bombings. I don't think the Palestinians want the conflict that they find themselves in. It doesn't justify their existence, it is just something they have to deal with.
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Annapurna1
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Divided_Sky]
#3130473 - 09/13/04 04:37 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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>> why would assume someone whom you have never met would be capable of such an awful and inhuman thing?
for the same reason that hitler torched the reichstag...
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Divided_Sky
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Aldous]
#3130779 - 09/13/04 05:42 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well first Bush and Hitler are nothing alike. Last time I checked Bush wasn't running on a campaign of invading neighboring countries, blaming all the nations problems on Jews and having them exterminated in camps and has not resorted to martial law.
Secondly, there weren't 3,000 innocent civilians, including his own personal freinds, in the Reichstag. Also the economic impact of burning one building was nowhere near what 911 caused. Would a president really willfully kill not only his own citizens, but destroy the economy and seriously endanger chances of re-election in order to take away people's rights for no reason at all?
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Skikid16
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Divided_Sky]
#3130811 - 09/13/04 05:47 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Last time I checked Bush wasn't running on a campaign of invading neighboring countries,
No, in fact he ran on the platform of no nation building, but then, well, you know.......
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Learyfan
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Divided_Sky]
#3131121 - 09/13/04 07:02 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Divided_Sky said:
I won?t flame but I have to ask, if you were President, would you as a person deliberately allow 911 to happen, or plan and ok it? Do you think anyone you know would do such a thing?
If not, why would assume someone whom you have never met would be capable of such an awful and inhuman thing?
Why can?t you imagine that the government would do something like this? They blew off Kenedy?s head in broad daylight.
9-11 was the BEST thing that happened to Bush. Even you should agree with that. On the 10th, he was a moron. On the 12th he was a genius. 9-11 allowed him to attack Iraq and it?s helping him manipulate a scared shitless public.
Why wouldn?t he do it?
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silversoul7
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Divided_Sky]
#3131156 - 09/13/04 07:11 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Divided_Sky said:
Well first Bush and Hitler are nothing alike. Last time I checked Bush wasn't running on a campaign of invading neighboring countries, blaming all the nations problems on Jews and having them exterminated in camps and has not resorted to martial law.
No, instead he invades countries far away, blames the nation's problems on his predecessor, and has American citizens spied upon and held without trial or due process.
Quote:
Secondly, there weren't 3,000 innocent civilians, including his own personal freinds, in the Reichstag. Also the economic impact of burning one building was nowhere near what 911 caused. Would a president really willfully kill not only his own citizens, but destroy the economy and seriously endanger chances of re-election in order to take away people's rights for no reason at all?
If you think 9/11 hurt president Bush's chances of re-election, I'd suggest getting your head examined. 9/11 is probably the only reason why he even stands a chance of re-election. As for the economy, Bush's spending habits are a clear indicator that he doesn't give a damn about the economy. Also, he has plenty of incentive for taking people's rights away, but it all boils down to power. The fewer the rights of the citizens, the more powerful the government becomes. The Patriot Act is a major stepping stone towards tyranny.
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Divided_Sky
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Aldous]
#3131559 - 09/13/04 08:35 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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I agree of many of Bush's policies and I would absolutely never allow 3,000 of my fellow citizens to be blown to bits nor do I want a dictatorship. If I can support those policies without some kind of malicious intention, why should I believe Bush is any different?
I can and have argued endlessly why Bush would not have rational motive to allow such a thing to happen, but all I am asking here is why assume his unhumanity? Why assume that he would be capable of horrible things you yourself never could do?
It is true that some people like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Osama Bin Laden, are capable of despicable things, but in every instance the motives, circumstances, personalities, background and beliefs of every one of these people are completely different than Bush's. I see absolutely no reason to lump our President in with that rare group of truly evil people. And only a truly evil and inhuman person could allow or support 911 for any reason.
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Skikid16
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Divided_Sky]
#3131601 - 09/13/04 08:41 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Why assume that he would be capable of horrible things you yourself never could do?
Preservation of power.
I don't know what its like to be the most powerful man in the world, but I've heard its addicting.
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Zahid
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: silversoul7]
#3131638 - 09/13/04 08:47 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Also, he has plenty of incentive for taking people's rights away, but it all boils down to power. The fewer the rights of the citizens, the more powerful the government becomes. The Patriot Act is a major stepping stone towards tyranny.
In other words, Bush is about big government.
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Skikid16
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Zahid]
#3131652 - 09/13/04 08:49 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
In other words, Bush is about big government.
You know, I've been debating that for a while, I mean if you look at his record, then yes, he is big government, but honestly, he's so big government, its almost like he's trying to bankrupt the government once and for all, which would make him the ultimate small government.
But hey, like I've said many times, I'm a retard.
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silversoul7
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Skikid16]
#3131673 - 09/13/04 08:52 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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It's the American people he's bankrupting, not the government.
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Skikid16
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: silversoul7]
#3131682 - 09/13/04 08:53 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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which will eventually bankrupt the government, once foreign investors pull their money out.
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silversoul7
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Skikid16]
#3131711 - 09/13/04 08:57 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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In case you hadn't noticed, the government runs its own counterfeiting ring(the Federal Reserve).
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Skikid16
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: silversoul7]
#3131726 - 09/13/04 08:59 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Which much of the value is still based upon international perception of our dollars worth, which will sharpely decrease once foreign investors start hounding for some returns on their "investments".
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silversoul7
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Skikid16]
#3131741 - 09/13/04 09:01 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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I see your point, but I'm not sure that causing the destruction of the United States is exactly what I'd consider to be for "small government," though I can see how it could be interpreted that way.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Zahid
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: silversoul7]
#3131766 - 09/13/04 09:04 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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What if the U.S. government crumbled like the Soviet Union? And the country's 6 million _____ takes power and imposes _____ Law on all of the United States and declares a ________ against__________?????
What would you do??
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Skikid16
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: silversoul7]
#3131804 - 09/13/04 09:11 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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i hear you, and as I said, I've been debating it myself, and I know its very unlikely, but you never know with these damn neocons.
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Evolving
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Zahid]
#3132418 - 09/13/04 11:02 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zahid said:
What if the U.S. government crumbled like the Soviet Union? And the country's 6 million _____ takes power and imposes _____ Law on all of the United States and declares a ________ against__________?????
What would you do??
Let me guess, 6 million morons, some of whom celebrate the 9/11 attacks?
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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Skikid16
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Evolving]
#3132491 - 09/13/04 11:16 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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zing
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Aldous
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Divided_Sky]
#3132980 - 09/14/04 01:27 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Divided_Sky said:
I can and have argued endlessly why Bush would not have rational motive to allow such a thing to happen, but all I am asking here is why assume his unhumanity? Why assume that he would be capable of horrible things you yourself never could do?
Let's not talk about the rational motive, which is overly self-evident and has been pointed out right here.
Bush's inhumanity is not an assumption really. He has actually done many horrible things that I myself could never do.
I could never sign more than 150 execution orders, including for retards and youths. I could never destroy the environment in order to pay off my friends in the oil business (which I don't have). I could never lie to the whole world in order to start an illegal war. I could never use the name of God in order to establish and strengthen political power.
But then, you are automatically assuming that Bush was involved. Who says he was? Maybe the neocons planned it without telling him? He's just a puppet, and an inhumane one for that matter.
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st0nedphucker
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Aldous]
#3133225 - 09/14/04 04:41 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Why can't you imagine that the government would do something like this? They blew off Kenedy's head in broad daylight.
Don't forget the faked moon landings and the abduction of Elvis... 
Quote:
Bush's inhumanity is not an assumption really. He has actually done many horrible things that I myself could never do. etc etc
.....
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Zahid
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Skikid16]
#3133250 - 09/14/04 05:02 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Skikid16 said:
zing
And what will your position on that be tomorrow?
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Divided_Sky
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Aldous]
#3133940 - 09/14/04 10:43 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Again, you have to believe he is a monster in order to interpret his actions in a way that makes him look like a monster. Your logic is like when people say the Bible is true because it says in Jermeiah 13 "The Bible is True". (I don't actually know what Jeremiahg 13 says)
I do not believe Bush lied to start a war over oil, that he wants to conquer the world in the name of God and destroy the environment. I would have to already be indoctrinated into that line of thinking to believe any of that rubbish, which is ironic as you use it to justify your belief.
The question is what came first you believing Bush is evil, or you believing Bush the things Bush does are evil?
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Xlea321
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: st0nedphucker]
#3134049 - 09/14/04 11:19 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Don't forget the faked moon landings and the abduction of Elvis...
And WMD...
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Aldous
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Divided_Sky]
#3134321 - 09/14/04 12:53 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Divided_Sky said:
I do not believe Bush lied to start a war over oil, that he wants to conquer the world in the name of God and destroy the environment. I would have to already be indoctrinated into that line of thinking to believe any of that rubbish, which is ironic as you use it to justify your belief.
You're absolutely right, it's all about beliefs.
I believe Bush tried to convince the whole world that Saddam had to be taken out because of his WMD, of which he showed pictures, and I believe the Iraq survey team didn't find a trace of WMD after the war, and I believe Iraq is drenched in oil... but hey, that's just me.
I believe Bush quotes the Bible in political speeches, and I believe he's never missed an opportunity to stress that he's leading the battle of Good against Evil, and I believe he appointed people like Ashcroft... but hey, that's just me.
I believe he took each and every measure possible to please his oil buddies, and I believe he let the energy business write the draft of his energy bill, and I believe Texas has the worst air quality of all states, etc... but hey, that's just me.
If you want to believe otherwise, be my guest. The truth is all relative, all about beliefs, right? Anyway, I believe so.
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Annapurna1
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Divided_Sky]
#3135802 - 09/14/04 06:26 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Divided_Sky said:
I won't flame but I have to ask, if you were President, would you as a person deliberately allow 911 to happen, or plan and ok it? Do you think anyone you know would do such a thing?
If not, why would assume someone whom you have never met would be capable of such an awful and inhuman thing?
as idiotic as such a comment is..it does answer the key question as to why the mainstream has dismissed the "conspiracy theory"...if fewer ppl made such an assinine assumption that "bush is too good to do such a thing"..the conspiracy theory may well be conspiracy fact today...
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Divided_Sky
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Aldous]
#3135924 - 09/14/04 07:04 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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So could you do it?
I try not to make a habit of judging others by a different standard than I judge myself.
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silversoul7
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Divided_Sky]
#3135971 - 09/14/04 07:14 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Some people are more evil than others. Examples: Osama Bin Laden, Adolph Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Joseph Stalin, etc. If you believe that these people were capable of carrying out atrocities, why is it so hard to fathom that an American president would be capable of such things?
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zappaisgod
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: silversoul7]
#3136053 - 09/14/04 07:33 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Please name one sociopath elected to president who had the ability to circumvent the constitution and defy the congress and the supreme court to pursue a genocidal agenda.
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silversoul7
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: zappaisgod]
#3136064 - 09/14/04 07:35 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Please name one sociopath elected to president who had the ability to circumvent the constitution and defy the congress and the supreme court to pursue a genocidal agenda.
Andrew Jackson
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Annapurna1
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: silversoul7]
#3136112 - 09/14/04 07:46 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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bush has done two(2) better than jackson..he is defying the constitution..and pursuing what could easily become a genocidal agenda (he did call it a "crusade")..with the full blessing and support of both congress and the SCOTUS...
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AhronZombi
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Divided_Sky]
#3137255 - 09/15/04 12:22 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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the president is a pawn for the government. he didnt plan it, it was planned by the pentagon and military industrial complex. and dont think its just the republicans the democrats did it in oklahoma city
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Divided_Sky
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: silversoul7]
#3137299 - 09/15/04 12:45 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
silversoul7 said:
Some people are more evil than others. Examples: Osama Bin Laden, Adolph Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Joseph Stalin, etc. If you believe that these people were capable of carrying out atrocities, why is it so hard to fathom that an American president would be capable of such things?
I adressed most of these examples on the first page. I believe that truly evil people are rare and they show certain traits. Considering both the circumstances of Bush's presidency, his background as a person, environment and personal beliefs, I can say with a great deal of confidence that G. W. Bush is not in company with Stalin and Hitler. That should be pretty damn apparent.
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KingOftheThing
the cool fool
Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Divided_Sky]
#3137321 - 09/15/04 12:55 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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naww man history will put bush in the same category of hitler and stalin
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AhronZombi
AhronZombi
Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 1,265
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: KingOftheThing]
#3137336 - 09/15/04 01:03 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
KingOftheThing said:
naww man history will put bush in the same category of hitler and stalin
i beleive 911 will go down in history as a huge lie. execuded by this government. i dont think it was bush or clintons fault in the sense of a accident. i think it was a plan and involved both partys. the whole point of kerry winning is this. when he wins most actavists and anti bushys will think they have got a victory and will shut up. this will allow kerry to push through the same taking away of rights and evil acts as the american government has been doing for years. dont vote kerry or bush, your vote dosent count. kerry will win but he is no better than bush in any way at all. they are cousins and both part of the skull and bones. if you think you have a choice your a fool
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: 9/11: the worst of both worlds? [Re: Divided_Sky]
#3138166 - 09/15/04 09:51 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Divided_Sky said:
Quote:
silversoul7 said:
Some people are more evil than others. Examples: Osama Bin Laden, Adolph Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Joseph Stalin, etc. If you believe that these people were capable of carrying out atrocities, why is it so hard to fathom that an American president would be capable of such things?
I adressed most of these examples on the first page. I believe that truly evil people are rare and they show certain traits. Considering both the circumstances of Bush's presidency, his background as a person, environment and personal beliefs, I can say with a great deal of confidence that G. W. Bush is not in company with Stalin and Hitler. That should be pretty damn apparent.
Maybe not to the same degree as them, but personally, I don't think I'd put any politician of either major party above doing such a thing. Bush once mocked the pleas of a woman on death row to spare her life. Not exactly what I'd consider to be a "compassionate conservative," and certainly not the mark of a man with a high regard for human life. Also, I'd like to point out that even if Bush himself didn't allow the attacks to occur, members of his administration could have. In a document by the Project for a New American Century(of which Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, and Paul Wolfowitz are members) which was issued back in 1996(I think), it says that they would need a catastrophe on a similar scale to Pearl Harbor to achieve their political goal of the U.S. becoming an international police force. This shows that at least these members of the administration knew that an event such as 9/11 would be to their advantage. Perhaps one or more of them had information about the coming attacks, and withheld it from Bush during their briefings for the purpose of plausible deniability(I certainly wouldn't put it beyond any of those three creeps to do such a thing). That way, Bush could put an honest, sincere face on the whole thing(for reasons I can't understand, he seems to have that effect on people) and make it look like they didn't see it coming. Or it could be that Bush is not so innocent and naive as he appears(Lincoln was known to play dumb so people wouldn't suspect he was up to something).
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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