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OfflineElectricBoogaloo
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Poor Man's Pod: How am I doing?
    #3126428 - 09/12/04 06:11 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I started building a poor man's pod today and wanted to see if I've got it right before I go any further.

First, some pictures (the tub is a 58L tub).

Air pump is for a 30-60 Gallon aquarium.

Two holes cut in the top:


Light source added and holes covered in polyfil:


Questions:
1.) Are the holes big enough and do I need more?
2.) The light is a nightlight, and is VERY dim. Do I need something a bit brighter?
3.) I only have perlite for the bottom, but I'm going to be putting casings in there rather than cakes anyway. Is this ok, and how much should I put in? How much water should I add?

Lastly, my wife asked a valid question: how does this help keep contamination away when you are just blowing air in from outside using this method anyway?

Thanks in advance!


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OfflineArohpohpol
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Re: Poor Man's Pod: How am I doing? [Re: ElectricBoogaloo]
    #3126491 - 09/12/04 06:39 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

CO2 is heavier than air! Holes on the top will not drain CO2!!!

Any light source is adequate! Even opening the contaner once a day provides enough light to grow mushrooms!!! If your light produces too much heat, get rid of it!!!

Perlite is not nessesary, especially when doing casings!!! Misting the walls of your terrarium is good enough too keep the humidity high!

You can seal your air pump in a hepa filter vacume bag to cut down on contamination!!!


--------------------
"In heaven all the interesting people are missing." Friedrich Nietzsche


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OfflineElectricBoogaloo
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Re: Poor Man's Pod: How am I doing? [Re: Arohpohpol]
    #3126518 - 09/12/04 06:55 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

"CO2 is heavier than air! Holes on the top will not drain CO2!!!"


That's what I thought as well, but in the original PMP thread (http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1303334&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1), they all say "holes in top". <shrug>


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OfflineSpudz76
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Re: Poor Man's Pod: How am I doing? [Re: ElectricBoogaloo]
    #3126519 - 09/12/04 06:56 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Looks pretty good.  The air holes w/polyfil should have been in the side down about where the perlite layer stops, to vent the heavier CO2.  However, those are not always necessary and are sometimes a detriment (too much humidity loss).  So as you have it is cool, though I'd maybe remove the polyfil and put some tape over the holes until it is decided you could benefit from them.  And they are the right size it seems, just improperly located.

The nightlight should be fine.  It is nice and diffuse, and they really only need barely any light (some have used clusters of three LEDs and it worked fine, and that's less than 10 candlepower, which is rather dim).

Perlite works great.  I have a 68L tub for mine, and I used two 8 quart bags of perlite, which came up to about four inches deep from the bottom of the tub.  Then I added about three gallons of water, mixed in a 1:10 ratio of 3% hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) to water.  This comes up about three inches from the bottom, making a one inch layer of perlite that isn't actually submerged (but it should be wet).  You don't have to be exact with this as it isn't real critical, just bear in mind you need I pushed the perlite down as if trying to pack it down (or, like dunking rice krispies in your milk with a spoon to get them all doused) with the flat of my palm to get it all wet.  Then I fired up the air pump, and sprayed the walls down with H2O2 water (same mix as went in to the bottom), and put the lid on while I went and got cakes.  In your case it would be casings.  Place them in on the perlite but try not to cover up all the 'floor' space because there needs to be some transpiration room for the water vapor being created by the bubbler/perlite/evaporation to get up into the air (if more perlite is covered, there is less surface area = less humidity).  Especially don't cover the zones near the long walls where you have your air wands placed, as directly above those is where the most humidity action happens.

The contams question is a good one (smart wife, you should keep her! :smile: ).  Yes in fact some of the more cautious around here do put on or devise some sort of filter for their air pump so the air it takes in is a bit cleaner, such as a tupperware style box with a polyfil stuffed filter hole in it that the whole air pump goes into.  but this is not necessary for a few simple reasons.  The magic H2O2 in the water layer will mostly take care of any nasties as the air bubbles up through the treated water.  Also the water itself even without the H2O2 addition will 'trap' or 'scrub' most of the particulates like spores and leave them in the water/perlite, where there are no nutrients and they have no chance of germinating.  Most bacteria that would get in also would have nothing to 'eat' so not really a problem there.  Any water that evaporates into the chamber will basically be equivalent to distilled, since evaporated water can't carry anything with it, even minerals, so there is no chance of having airborne contaminants getting in via the air pump and air wands.  Thus my opinion that the extra filter for the pump is overkill/paranoia/extra insurance that isn't needed.  Now and then (like, between 'crop' cycles) you might add some more straight H2O2 to the bin since it breaks down rather fast in some cases (into H2O and O2, so helpful things anyway no fear of toxicity buildup or flammable gases being created).  You really can't have too much, but 1:10 is usually plenty.

Also of note, in the non-PMP type terrarium you open the lid completely and use like a magazine or such to fan out the air, up to 6 times a day in some cases.  Which do you think would have worse contamination problems?  Well actually neither really has huge issues with it, because the perlite is non-nutritative and as long as there isn't all sorts of mess in there (stuff fallen off of cakes or spilled out of casings, especially substrate but also verm if it soaked up some nutes already) there will be no place for the huge load of spores and bacteria you blow into it to take hold.  However with casings, PMP is better since the casing layer may not protect from the onslaught of contaminant precursors as well.

Good luck.


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OfflineElectricBoogaloo
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Re: Poor Man's Pod: How am I doing? [Re: Spudz76]
    #3127076 - 09/12/04 10:13 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for that spudz!  That is exactly what I needed to hear! :thumbup:


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Offlinescape
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Re: Poor Man's Pod: How am I doing? [Re: ElectricBoogaloo]
    #3127091 - 09/12/04 10:16 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

umm.. actually the holes in the top will work. Thats why theirs a air curtain on the bottom so the rising air will mix with the c02 and push it out creating a good FAE(fresh air exchange) ask magash theirs always a big deal about c02 and stuff but holes in the top work just as well if not better than holes on the side.(FACT)


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EVERYTHING I SAY OR DO IS FAKE, IM A COMPULSIVE LIAR, sorry for any confusion this makes.


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Offline3SR
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Re: Poor Man's Pod: How am I doing? [Re: Arohpohpol]
    #3127156 - 09/12/04 10:36 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

How many times must magash tell people about air entrainment.


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Offlinescape
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Re: Poor Man's Pod: How am I doing? [Re: 3SR]
    #3127162 - 09/12/04 10:37 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I dont know... but holes in the top work better than holes on the side :P


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EVERYTHING I SAY OR DO IS FAKE, IM A COMPULSIVE LIAR, sorry for any confusion this makes.


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OfflineSpudz76
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Re: Poor Man's Pod: How am I doing? [Re: scape]
    #3127200 - 09/12/04 10:48 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

He is right, you can use them on top too. I never said you couldn't or that it wasn't the 'right' place for them.

I just prefer holes on the sides, for scientific reasons. I don't trust convection from a possibly underpowered air pump especially when using a small 'rock' size like perlite. CO2 is heavier, thus it will come out better if the holes are lower, period. "(FACT)" The only way it could be different is if there were some sort of venturi or cyclonic flow, which the air wands don't create. There will be negligible CO2 escaping from the lid vents, just stale air.

The reasons for the better results with the top holes instead are due to leaving some CO2 down low near the bases of the cakes. CO2 is beneficial in the prepinning stages (regurgitating what hyphae always says) with levels of 10000 ppm or more and in that stage only will kick off a stronger pinset. Thus, the better results, when based on pinning vigor and pin count. But then if you open up side vents after that stage of every flush then you will drop the CO2 level and increase FAE (but humidity may drop, watch it and adjust hole size by taping it partially closed, or increase polyfil density by packing more in the hole so it's tighter thus blocking off more air flow). This will maximize fruiting speed and reduce aborts (if timed right), possibly also making for very nice sized fruits.

So sort of a combo of both in the right timing and in the right way. "(FACT}"

Of course hyphae will stop by and scold me if I got it wrong but I think that's pretty much what he always is talking about. Before he mentioned it a few times recently, I had thought CO2 was always a bad thing, and needed to be gotten rid of at all times.


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Offlinescape
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Re: Poor Man's Pod: How am I doing? [Re: Spudz76]
    #3127244 - 09/12/04 10:56 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Nice write up spudz! good info that i didnt know..


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EVERYTHING I SAY OR DO IS FAKE, IM A COMPULSIVE LIAR, sorry for any confusion this makes.


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Invisiblegeorge castanzaM
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Re: Poor Man's Pod: How am I doing? [Re: scape]
    #3127267 - 09/12/04 11:02 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

5 shrooms forSpudz76!

always got good info


--------------------



     
Quote:

pftek said:Impossible to clean everything right now. Maybe in a week.





ROTHBURY

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OfflineElectricBoogaloo
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Re: Poor Man's Pod: How am I doing? [Re: george castanza]
    #3127410 - 09/12/04 11:38 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

So how tightly do I pack the polyfil into those holes? I've got it crammed in there right now, and can't imagine much air flow through it.


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InvisibleMagashM
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Re: Poor Man's Pod: How am I doing? [Re: ElectricBoogaloo]
    #3127432 - 09/12/04 11:44 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

1.) Are the holes big enough and do I need more?> They are fine


2.) The light is a nightlight, and is VERY dim. Do I need something a bit brighter?
Without being able to see it it's a hard call but you may need more light.

3.) I only have perlite for the bottom, but I'm going to be putting casings in there rather than cakes anyway. Is this ok, and how much should I put in? How much water should I add?> Check out lava rock. I hear a lot of complantes from people using perlite but it will work.


4. Lastly, my wife asked a valid question: how does this help keep contamination away when you are just blowing air in from outside using this method anyway?
By the way this is the best of the questions. Most fishtank pumps come with a litle filter on them witch looks goofy but works pretty good. Then again I always recamend putting the pump in a filter box.

Now the reason for holes in the top and that is where you want them

The fundamental principal behind using air entrainment is to sufficiently mix the two (fresh air and stale air) together and then re-distribute them back into the environment in a more balanced way that is then more beneficial to the mushroom crop. Without this sufficient mixing of the gasses present within the grow space, the crops will remain stunted and will likely never reach their optimum potential.

With the poor mans pod, the settling co2 air is met and diffused by a curtain of fresh air rising from beneath the Geo-lite surface. This rising flow of air is created from the air diffuser rod situated below the Geo-lite surface, which is powered by the air pump. The rising air pattern not only prohibits the heavier co2 air from settling down onto the bottom surface as usual but it also simultaneously diffuses the co2 with fresh air as it is distributed back into the environment or grow space where it can be put to good use.

In this way, the poor mans pod creates the same desired phenomenon as offered by more conventional means of air entrainment found in much larger-scale commercial applications where a mixing box is commonly used to accomplish this important task.


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OfflinekronnyQ
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Re: Poor Man's Pod: How am I doing? [Re: Magash]
    #3127452 - 09/12/04 11:52 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

For the love of god don't use perlite it's a fricken mess! I just built a pod with Hydroton, they call it hydrokorrels here...just look for it at a hydroponic or garden center...if they don't know what you are talking about just tell them small circular clay rocks for a growing medium.


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OfflineElectricBoogaloo
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Re: Poor Man's Pod: How am I doing? [Re: kronnyQ]
    #3127506 - 09/13/04 12:07 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

"For the love of god don't use perlite"

Too late.  :blush:

That's okay though, as long as my casing finally pin for me.

Couple more questions about the PMP:

1.) How would I go about building a filter box for the air pump?  I'm thinking of putting the pump in a tupperware container, drilling a hole in the side for the tube and another for air-in.  Then fill the air-in hole with poly.

2.) Since my PMP is in a dark box and I can't see inside, how often should I "peek" inside to check on pinning progress?  Has anyone tried to hook a webcam up inside the PMP so they can watch from afar?

Also, thanks Magash!


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OfflineSpudz76
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Re: Poor Man's Pod: How am I doing? [Re: ElectricBoogaloo]
    #3128433 - 09/13/04 04:55 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Perlite works OK, you just may have less transpiring humidity and it's a bit more of a mess but nothing horrible.  Mostly the dust is a bitch, and it gets a little soupy (back to my rick krispies analogy).  But for casings this should not be a big deal, they don't need super high humidity like cakes do.  I think many of the complaints Magash gets are from cakers and yeah it probably does make it more difficult to get 99% humidity compared to larger things like hydroton/geolite/lavarocks which can let the bubbles escape up to the surface much quicker and evenly (better transpiration).  Perlite sort of it builds up and you'll hear a quiet little "blurb" every now and then as it builds up big enough bubbles to push up through the perlite 'soup'.

A filter box like that is exactly the right train of thought.  Some use a tyvek covered window as it flows better and is a but more secure than polyfil (but since you already have polyfil then use it, no reason really not to - tyvek might work slightly better but if so it's not likely a huge difference unless your house is contam central).  Seal around the air out tube of course with something, like silicone caulking or RTV (a type of silicone which can be found in smaller tubes, and sets up nice and firm but still pliable and strong, in case "RTV" is foreign to you).  When applying silicone, wet your finger with water (or, spit actually works even better due to the viscosity of saliva - it's just slightly 'caveman') and then spread the silicone to a nice 'bead' around the hose also going up the hose a half inch or so as a 'strain relief' so the hose won't kink or come loose if you tug on it (after it sets of course).  The wetness will keep the pasty sticky silicone from sticking to your finger.  Or wear a rubber glove to apply it, even easier.

Anno did a time lapse of fruiting with a camera in a chamber which worked pretty well timelapse2_burma_divx.avi

I want to do that too.  Too much work getting up from the computer to go look. :smile:  And the time lapse stuff is really cool and probably the ultimate way to document a grow on an exact timeline.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Poor Man's Pod: How am I doing? [Re: Spudz76]
    #3129298 - 09/13/04 01:54 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I see Magash's point about airflow and air mixing. Perhaps the way to get the best of both worlds would be to place the airstone on one end of the chamber and your CO2 drain hole on the other side (far end). This would create an even better ammount of airflow and mixing across the cakes than having holes at the top. By having holes at the top and your airstone in the center you risk creating a channel of air from top to bottom that doesn't mix or exchange the air around the edges very well.


-FF


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