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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: BOB [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #3125411 - 09/12/04 08:36 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
aparently the Doctor is a bit misleading in refering to the aids virus passing through a condom as a miricle





Any condom could theoretically have a small hole in it due to a manufacturing defect. All condoms, that I know of, are now electronicaly tested to prevent this.

The quote you provided does not suggest that HIV passes through latex. Any cut or sore near the base of the penis can transmit aids. Condoms also slip off or break occasionally. This is where the chance of infection comes from, NOT from HIV passing through latex condoms.

Lambskin condoms DO allow HIV to pass through. Perhaps this is where the confusion comes from, but hawk has repeatedly said latex condoms.

-FF

P.S. If this saves even one life I don't care if it's off topic.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: BOB [Re: fastfred]
    #3125438 - 09/12/04 08:52 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

the study refered to Latex condoms, People are frequently misled by manufacturers claims, if there is a hole in the condom I will guarantee that it will break during use if not furing application, as for a small hole during manufacture, thats unlikely, each condom is tested I trust the older methods more so than the 'electronic' methods... in the old method, technicians would unroll the condom on a 24" stainless steel rod and stretch to the bottom, any 'defects' will result in breakage

The study doesnt state that the virus passes through the condom but it does state that there is still a signifigant risk (5-10%) of contracting the HIV virus even with the consistant use of condoms, if you check the reference for Doctor Bob, you may draw the same conclusion that I do, he is first, misleading and secondly paid by the manufacturers of pharmaceuticles and condoms

and my statement that you quoted, was just as misleading as the doctor in the effectiveness of condoms

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: BOB [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #3125478 - 09/12/04 09:13 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I never claimed that condoms are 100% effective, only that HIV doesn't pass through them. To think that anything is 100% effective is absurd.

I would also point out that the 5-10% failure rate is not per use, but rather a total failure rate over a period of time. It's similar to the statistics about the pill. The pill is 99% effective against pregnancy, but that doesn't mean that if you have sex 100 times that you will get pregnant. It's based on the effectiveness over a year period. Almost all condom failures can be traced back to misuse. I would bet that with correct use 100% of the time you would get a 99% effectiveness rate.

Anyways, my origonal point was that HIV doesn't pass through latex. I think that has been pretty clearly proven.

Here are some more facts to support my statment (which hawk has given me a 1 shroom rating for). They are all from the CDC website, here is a link to most of them...
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/pubs/facts/condoms.htm

Condoms are classified as medical devices and are regulated by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). Condom manufacturers in the United States test each latex condom for defects, including holes, before it is packaged.

There are many different types and brands of condoms available--however, only latex or polyurethane condoms provide a highly effective mechanical barrier to HIV. In laboratories, viruses occasionally have been shown to pass through natural membrane ("skin" or lambskin) condoms, which may contain natural pores and are therefore not recommended for disease prevention (they are documented to be effective for contraception).

Laboratory studies have demonstrated that latex condoms provide an essentially impermeable barrier to particles the size of STD pathogens.

A lesser degree of protection is provided for the genital ulcer diseases or HPV because these infections may be transmitted by exposure to areas, e.g., infected skin or mucosal surfaces, that are not covered or protected by the condom.



-FF

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: BOB [Re: fastfred]
    #3125502 - 09/12/04 09:29 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
I never claimed that condoms are 100% effective, only that HIV doesn't pass through them. To think that anything is 100% effective is absurd.

Laboratory studies have demonstrated that latex condoms provide an essentially impermeable barrier to particles the size of STD pathogens.




maybe you should re-read that statement again... aparently the CDC believes that condoms do allow the HIV virus to pass through...

Quote:

The pill is 99% effective against pregnancy, but that doesn't mean that if you have sex 100 times that you will get pregnant. It's based on the effectiveness over a year period.




its based on a period of time for thousands of women that may be anywhere from 30days to 5 years... it sometimes takes into account the 'forgotten' pills and other things... this is the same as with condom testing


Quote:

Anyways, my origonal point was that HIV doesn't pass through latex. I think that has been pretty clearly proven.




Laboratory studies have demonstrated that latex condoms provide an essentially impermeable barrier to particles the size of STD pathogens.

meaning that they are somewhat like an membrane and some things pass through, possibly even the HIV virus.



Quote:

fastfred said:
I never claimed that condoms are 100% effective, only that HIV doesn't pass through them. To think that anything is 100% effective is absurd.

I would also point out that the 5-10% failure rate is not per use, but rather a total failure rate over a period of time. It's similar to the statistics about the pill. The pill is 99% effective against pregnancy, but that doesn't mean that if you have sex 100 times that you will get pregnant. It's based on the effectiveness over a year period. Almost all condom failures can be traced back to misuse. I would bet that with correct use 100% of the time you would get a 99% effectiveness rate.

Anyways, my origonal point was that HIV doesn't pass through latex. I think that has been pretty clearly proven.

Here are some more facts to support my statment (which hawk has given me a 1 shroom rating for). They are all from the CDC website, here is a link to most of them...
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/pubs/facts/condoms.htm

Condoms are classified as medical devices and are regulated by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). Condom manufacturers in the United States test each latex condom for defects, including holes, before it is packaged.

There are many different types and brands of condoms available--however, only latex or polyurethane condoms provide a highly effective mechanical barrier to HIV. In laboratories, viruses occasionally have been shown to pass through natural membrane ("skin" or lambskin) condoms, which may contain natural pores and are therefore not recommended for disease prevention (they are documented to be effective for contraception).

Laboratory studies have demonstrated that latex condoms provide an essentially impermeable barrier to particles the size of STD pathogens.

A lesser degree of protection is provided for the genital ulcer diseases or HPV because these infections may be transmitted by exposure to areas, e.g., infected skin or mucosal surfaces, that are not covered or protected by the condom.


-FF



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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: BOB [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #3125524 - 09/12/04 09:42 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I don't follow...

essentially - Constituting or being part of the essence of something; inherent.

impermeable - Impossible to permeate: an impermeable membrane; an impermeable border.

barrier - (Physiology) A membrane, tissue, or mechanism that blocks the passage of certain substances.

I think you are possibly misinterpreting the word "essentially" the way the many people misinterpret "literally". As in the phrase "I was literally crawling up the walls,". That phrase literally makes no sense unless you had some climbing gear or are spiderman.


-FF

Edit: Definitions are from dictionary.com

Edited by fastfred (09/12/04 09:50 AM)

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Offlinehawksapprentice
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Re: BOB [Re: fastfred]
    #3125536 - 09/12/04 09:54 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Since you obviously have no respect for others threads ill go ahead an continue this since a mod jumped in. If you would recall correctly i said that condoms aren't fool proof. I never said they werent effective. But i guess when you get going you think your the one who knows everything. I have a doctorate in human medicine. I never said shit about the pope you idiot. You really shouldn't put words in another persons mouth.


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey

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Re: BOB [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #3125545 - 09/12/04 09:57 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

And i like Prisoners quote up their from your saying that you never said they dont pass. When if you look you did. So maybe your memory is going fred??? Seems like you prefer to contradict yourself.


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: BOB [Re: fastfred]
    #3125553 - 09/12/04 10:07 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
I don't follow...
essentially - Constituting or being part of the essence of something; inherent.
impermeable - Impossible to permeate: an impermeable membrane; an impermeable border.
barrier - (Physiology) A membrane, tissue, or mechanism that blocks the passage of certain substances.
I think you are possibly misinterpreting the word "essentially" the way the many people misinterpret "literally". As in the phrase "I was literally crawling up the walls,". That phrase literally makes no sense unless you had some climbing gear or are spiderman.
-FF
Edit: Definitions are from dictionary.com




essentially impermeable barrier, in this context means not 100%... you are trying to argue symantics in order to prove your point.

by the defintition it says it's not 100%

Quote:


http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/essentially
ESSENTIALLYadv] at bottom or by one's (or its) very nature; "He is basically dishonest"; "the argument was essentially a technical one"; "for all his bluster he is in essence a shy person"

Synonomous with: In Essence [adv] at bottom or by one's (or its) very nature; "He is basically dishonest"; "the argument was essentially a technical one"; "for all his bluster he is in essence a shy person"
# [adv] with regard to fundamentals although not concerning details; "in principle, we agree"
# [adj] being the essence or essential element of a thing; "substantial equivalents"; "substantive information"




it's hard to misinterpret the word litteraly, either you were or were not

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: BOB [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #3125565 - 09/12/04 10:14 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

hawksapprentice said:
Since you obviously have no respect for others threads ill go ahead an continue this since a mod jumped in. If you would recall correctly i said that condoms aren't fool proof. I never said they werent effective. But i guess when you get going you think your the one who knows everything. I have a doctorate in human medicine. I never said shit about the pope you idiot. You really shouldn't put words in another persons mouth.




You said "But the aids virus is small enough to get through latex condoms."

Maybe it's your memory that's failing.


-FF

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: BOB [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #3125577 - 09/12/04 10:23 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
essentially impermeable barrier, in this context means not 100%... you are trying to argue symantics in order to prove your point.

by the defintition it says it's not 100%





Using your definition we have:

"Laboratory studies have demonstrated that with regard to fundamentals although not concerning details latex condoms provide an impermeable barrier to particles the size of STD pathogens."

This, to me, would mean that HIV does not pass through latex unless there are some non-standard details involved. e.g. that it is a fundamental truth that HIV doesn't pass through latex, but certain details could change that. It amounts to not trying to claim that every condom ever made is 100% impermable, but saying that in general HIV will not pass through any standard, non-comprimised latex condom.

Anyway, since we've gotten so mired down in semantics, I'm calling an AIDS hotline to find out the truth. Is a standard AIDS hotline good enough for you guys or should I call the CDC directly? Please don't lock the thread until I get back with the answers... Lives could be on the line here.


-FF

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: BOB [Re: fastfred]
    #3125599 - 09/12/04 10:35 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
essentially impermeable barrier, in this context means not 100%... you are trying to argue symantics in order to prove your point.
by the defintition it says it's not 100%




Using your definition we have
"Laboratory studies have demonstrated that with regard to fundamentals although not concerning details latex condoms provide an impermeable barrier to particles the size of STD pathogens."

This, to me, would mean that HIV does not pass through latex unless there are some non-standard details involved. It ammounts to not claiming that every condom ever made is 100% impermable, but in general HIV will not pass through any standard, non-comprimised latex condom.




Exactly the point, real life and laboratory conditions are 2 entierely differerent realms, what the text book says regarding one thing may not always be the case with the expected outcome, there are many variables. Again, refer to the Link that I provided regarding statistics of effectiveness and the link from the CDC stating that they are 'essentialy an impermeable barrier'... both state no reason for the HIV virus transmission but the both state that it does occur and that means there is the possibility of passage through the latex membrane, further testing is in the works I'm sure...




Quote:

I'm calling an AIDS hotline to find out the truth. Please don't lock the thread until I get back with the answers... Lives could be on the line here.





you'll find less information that way, they go by phamphlets distributed from the CDC and the condom companies... as for locking the thread, it wont be done by me unless there is a flame war in progress...

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: BOB [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #3126035 - 09/12/04 01:25 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

"Latex condoms, on the other hand, are made from a synthetic rubber material that HIV can't penetrate."
http://www.gayhealth.com/templates/10950...amp;trycookie=1

"'The data are consistent, there are no holes in condoms that present a risk of infection,' Dr Hitchcock told Panorama."

"No one should not use a condom because they think it's going to leak," she said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/3845011.stm

Check out that last link it is a good critique of the vatican's claims. If you guys want to continue to claim that HIV passes through latex, you need to provide some information to back that up. The scientific consensus is that HIV does NOT pass through latex.

If you want to talk about breaks, tears, improper use, slippage, penile jewelry, and manufacturing defects that is a whole different issue. As a general rule HIV does not pass through latex.
It is also true that condoms are not 100% effective. That doesn't mean that the HIV is passing through the condom.

This is exactly what I've been saying all along.
I say HIV doesn't pass through latex. Hawk says "But the aids virus is small enough to get through latex condoms." One of us is right and one of us is incorrect. People reading this need to decide which of these general statements is correct and which is incorrect without getting into semantics and what ifs.

I've never said that HIV has never passed through any condom no matter how poorly used or how beat up it is. What I have been saying is that HIV does not pass through intact latex condoms. Every major health organization supports that claim. The only organization I've found that disputes that is the Vatican.

Who are you going to believe, the vatican or every other health organization and panels of expert scientists?

So in conclusion I hope everyone here can decide that "HIV does not pass through latex" is more correct than "the aids virus is small enough to get through latex condoms."

Everyone, please use condoms. Just because the HIV rate is dropping here in the US doesn't mean that it's safe to go back to unprotected sex. Condoms, when properly used, are highly effective in preventing the spread of aids. People with HIV positive partners have been very successful in avoiding AIDS through the use of condoms. That is the most telling evidence in support of my statement. If you want to see 100% correct condom usage, just look at couples where one partner is HIV+. In these cases condoms have proven to be effective in stopping HIV, despite the fact that one person is repeatedly having sex with a known HIV+ person.


-FF

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: BOB [Re: fastfred]
    #3126180 - 09/12/04 02:29 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
It is also true that condoms are not 100% effective. That doesn't mean that the HIV is passing through the condom.

I've never said that HIV has never passed through any condom no matter how poorly used or how beat up it is. What I have been saying is that HIV does not pass through intact latex condoms. Every major health organization supports that claim. The only organization I've found that disputes that is the Vatican.






Fred... you understand that you have already quoted the foremost authority
on HIV virus and to the effectiveness and whether or not the virus can penetrate
a latex condom... why do you thing the nonoxynol-9 lubricant is recomended
because even though it's a spermicide it also kills the HIV virus

Why does every major health orginization maintain the stance that HIV cant pass
through the latex... because hundreds of thousands of people would use it as
yet another excuse NOT to use condoms, thousands more would also be filing
lawsuits because they had contracted HIV while consistantly using condoms in
the proper manor... We have shown 2 sources that do not specificly state that
it does pass through but both sources imply that it may in fact be
contracted in that manor...

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Invisiblegeorge castanzaM
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Re: BOB [Re: fastfred]
    #3126341 - 09/12/04 03:38 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

:jiggy:


--------------------
KRAMER CAKES



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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: BOB [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #3126501 - 09/12/04 04:45 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
We have shown 2 sources that do not specificly state that
it does pass through but both sources imply that it may in fact be contracted in that manor...




That is your interpretation. I don't see how you can take a statement that specificaly states that it does not pass through a condom and turn that around to mean that it does. It simply doesn't make any sense.

Here are some more quotes from experts in the field...

"The statements are totally incorrect. Latex condoms are impermeable. They do prevent HIV transmission."
"It is very unfortunate to have this type of misinformation being broadcast,"
"It is a concern. From a technical point of view, the statements are totally incorrect."
-Catherine Hankins, chief scientific advisor to UNAids.

"There is so much evidence to show that condoms don't let sexually transmitted infections like HIV through. Anyone who says otherwise is just wrong."
-WHO spokesperson

"Condoms are a straightforward and effective way of preventing HIV transmission and to suggest otherwise is dangerous," said Dr Rachel Baggaley, head of WHO's HIV unit.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3176982.stm


-FF

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Re: Thank you all! [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #3126752 - 09/12/04 06:31 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

hawksapprentice said:
Ever heard of FUBU.  It was a brand of clothing.  Not really sure what it stood for.




For Us By Us

:wink:


--------------------
"my brain waves travel at half the speed afta we..." -del tha funkee

"Two men looked out through prison bars...one saw the mud, one saw the stars." -anonymous

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: BOB [Re: fastfred]
    #3126898 - 09/12/04 07:27 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
"The statements are totally incorrect. Latex condoms are impermeable. They do prevent HIV transmission."




right here your expert is disqualified... it's already been established that 5-10% of those that have HIV and consistantly and correctly use a condom end up with the HIV virus...

the rest was strictly rhetoric used in order to promote the use of condoms for safe sex, I guarantee that any one in the scientific community that reads this statement : Laboratory studies have demonstrated that latex condoms provide an essentially impermeable barrier to particles the size of STD pathogens. will draw the exact same conclusion...

now... lets drop this discussion. it seems your goal is to always be correct even when the evidence that you have posted contradicts your stance

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Re: BOB [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #3126926 - 09/12/04 07:33 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

On with the show

:handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth: :handth:


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Offlinehawksapprentice
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Re: BOB [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3127578 - 09/12/04 10:28 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Bravo.


--------------------
"I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all.  never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say."

  Edward Abbey

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Re: BOB [Re: hawksapprentice]
    #3128246 - 09/13/04 01:25 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

man, after reading all that, I actualy forgot what the actual thread was about in the first place.

:laugh:

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* BRF Cakes make bob dole angry grrr Bob_Dole 859 3 12/16/07 04:18 PM
by FooMan
* Woo hoo. Bob's Pan. Cyans. are colonizing. Now he needs advice. MORE QUESTIONS ADDED. ymhrswrider 1,904 10 02/13/05 03:15 PM
by VALIS
* Bob Mullet Wonders..... too much moisture? knellcast 747 5 10/26/02 07:35 PM
by tripndicular
* Anyone use Bob's Red Mill - BRF BigB123 1,183 6 09/24/03 03:58 PM
by daussaulit
* Woo Hoo...Bob's first case of Pan. Cyans. is pinning. Need info from successful growers!
( 1 2 all )
ymhrswrider 5,642 21 03/02/05 05:40 PM
by ymhrswrider
* Some pics of Bob's baby Pan. Cyan. ymhrswrider 3,816 14 03/04/05 10:15 AM
by EonTan
* Bob's Pan Cyans are gonna be a bit longer b/c of some problems. PS Free feret to whoever wants him! ymhrswrider 1,735 12 03/11/05 07:47 AM
by MushroomFriend
* Bob is curious if these are pins or something else. Pics. ymhrswrider 1,319 9 02/26/05 05:34 PM
by ymhrswrider

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