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Offlinefrogger25
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Death toll in Iraq
    #3121884 - 09/11/04 12:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I have the opportunity to read the paper everyday because it is delivered to my dorm for free. A recent article in the New York Times pointed out that the death toll on American forces have reached 1,000. this is indeed terrible, but only a small part of the entire story. Why wasn't there an article when the civilian death toll reached 1,000? why wasn't there an article when the civilian death toll reached 10,000? well the count is now between 11,793 and 13,802. you may need to wait a week or two before it reaches 15,000. What about the number of Iraqi military forces killed in conflicts, which may be as high as 6,370? What about the 65 Britons, 6 Bulgarians, 1 Dane, 2 Dutch, 1 Estonian, 1 Hungarian, 19 Italians, 1 Latvian, 10 Poles, 1 Salvadoran, 3 Slovaks, 11 Spaniards, 2 Thai and 8 Ukrainians? Showing only the number of causalities in the US armed forces is a huge understatement to the destruction going on in Iraq.

Sources of info:
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/
http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/12/us-iraq-press.htm
http://www.iraq.net/displayarticle835.html


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
prophet of God
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Registered: 09/05/04
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Re: Death toll in Iraq [Re: frogger25]
    #3121905 - 09/11/04 12:50 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

99% of the Iraqis are killed by other Iraqis. Iraqis were killed at a faster rate when Saddam Hussein was in power, too. Shiites and Sunnis hate each other and, also, extremists kill moderates who oppose them.


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: Death toll in Iraq [Re: frogger25]
    #3121914 - 09/11/04 12:51 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)



Edited by Great_Satan (09/11/04 12:54 PM)


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Offlinefrogger25
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Re: Death toll in Iraq [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3121930 - 09/11/04 12:55 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

thanks for the links, truly an enlightening read.


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: Death toll in Iraq [Re: frogger25]
    #3121941 - 09/11/04 12:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

You're welcome. This is important, too:


http://projects.sipri.se/armstrade/Trnd_Ind_IRQ_Imps_73-02.pdf

Top three suppliers of arms to Saddam Hussein, 1973 - 2002

USSR: 57%
* France: 13%
* China: 12%

Then, in order of importance:

* Czechoslovakia: 7%
* Poland: 4%
* Brazil: 2%
* Egypt: 1%
* Romania: 1%
* Denmark: 1%
* Libya: 1%

USA's sales -- 1 percent. None provided before or after the Iraq-Iran war.


Syria hiding Iraq WMDs
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36463


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OfflineSquattingMarmot
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Registered: 08/19/03
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Re: Death toll in Iraq [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3122528 - 09/11/04 03:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Great_Satan said:
99% of the Iraqis are killed by other Iraqis.  Iraqis were killed at a faster rate when Saddam Hussein was in power, too.  Shiites and Sunnis hate each other and, also, extremists kill moderates who oppose them.




Well thank god we're killing them at a much slower pace, that makes it ok right?  :smirk:


--------------------
"In the United States anybody can be president. Thats the problem."

"The gray-haired douche bag, Barbara Bush, has a slogan: "Encourage your child to read every day." What she should be is encouraging children to question what they read every day."

- George Carlin


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: Death toll in Iraq [Re: SquattingMarmot]
    #3123493 - 09/11/04 09:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

We're not killing them. The Muslims are killing each other. The coalition troops aren't killing anyone. The Muslims are using them to commit suicide with because Muslims believe that dying during their imaginary jihad struggle guarantees they will automaticly go to paradise bypassing judgement. The Islamic terrorists and insurgents hide among the civilians so that's why you get civilian casualties. 99% of the civilians are killed by the Islamic terrorists and insurgents and then are blamed on westerners. Absolute proof is right here:

http://home.ripway.com/2003-11/39191/Mark%20Gabriel/Chapter4.pdf


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Death toll in Iraq [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3123719 - 09/11/04 10:31 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

99% of the civilians are killed by the Islamic terrorists and insurgents and then are blamed on westerners.


Uhhhhh? Right....


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: Death toll in Iraq [Re: frogger25]
    #3123932 - 09/11/04 11:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)



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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Death toll in Iraq [Re: Skikid16]
    #3124832 - 09/12/04 03:29 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Skikid16 said:
Quote:

99% of the civilians are killed by the Islamic terrorists and insurgents and then are blamed on westerners.


Uhhhhh? Right....




He is correct on this. Far more Iraqis have been killed by terrorists in the last year than US troops, and as far as I can tell anytime there is an attack and a TV camera there is a group of hysterical Iraqis blamming the bombings on the US.


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Death toll in Iraq [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3124843 - 09/12/04 03:31 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I should have been clearer, its not that I dispute that, its just his 99% figure seems to be pulled out of his ass, much like the rest of his postings.

That's what I had a problem with.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Death toll in Iraq [Re: frogger25]
    #3126220 - 09/12/04 04:47 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Don't worry about those deaths. Non-American lives are worth less than American lives.







--------------------
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Mp3 of the month: Park Avenue Playground - The Trip



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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: Death toll in Iraq [Re: Learyfan]
    #3126842 - 09/12/04 09:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

ESCAPING ARAB FAILURE

By RALPH PETERS


April 23, 2004 -- WE shouldn't be discouraged by the recent round of violence in Iraq. It was predictable. But there were two disheartening signs:
* We should be troubled that, in this bloody month, none of the insurgents waved an alternative constitution - unless we count their perversion of the Koran. None of those violent men is fighting for freedom - they're fighting to strangle liberty in the cradle. They are, without exception, forces of reaction, not liberation, no matter how madly al-Jazeera twists the facts.

* Nor did the general Arab population or its leaders take a public stand against those who would renew their oppression. And those who will not defend their own freedom do not deserve to be defended by others.

Operation Iraqi Freedom has been, among other things, an attempt to give Arabs hope for a better future. The ultimate outcome won't be known for years, but we must prepare ourselves for the possibility that the Arabs are going to fail themselves again.

With sufficient troops, we can force Iraq's Arabs to behave. But we can't force them to succeed.

Ultimately, Iraq is not a test of the limits of American power. When necessary, we can do whatever must be done for our security and prosperity. Our use of force, in Iraq and elsewhere, has been remarkably - even foolishly - restrained.

If Iraq collapses into medieval fantasies and blood feuds, we still may be proud of having given this crippled civilization a last, great chance to heal itself. We've made mistakes, but their impact is minor compared to the unwillingness of Iraq's Arabs, Sunni or Shi'a, to build a free and civil society of their own.


In the United States, campus-generated political correctness was never more than a joke - capable of turning somber conservatives purple but unable to alter anything that matters. The far more dangerous form of political correctness is that which prevails in the dream-world of diplomacy: We pretend that all civilizations have equal merit.

But they don't. It's time to face up to the functional and moral collapse of the Arab world - if we can't describe the problem honestly, we shall never deal with it effectively.

Arab civilization has failed.

Disguised in part by the trappings of oil wealth, the Middle East has become humanity's sinkhole, less promising, if richer, than Africa. But no facade of garish hotels in the hollow states that line the Persian Gulf, and no amount of full-page advertisements funded by the Saudi government, can hide the truth any longer: The Arab Middle East has become the world's first entirely parasitical culture; all it does is to imitate poorly, consume voraciously, spit hatred, export death and create nothing.

Arab civilization offers its people no promising future, only rhetoric about a past whose achievements have been as exaggerated as they were impermanent. The present is a bloody, heartless muddle.

For all the oil wealth and expatriate university degrees, for all the hired-in expertise and Western "engagement," Arab civilization has degenerated to a point where it provides the rest of humanity nothing useful of its own design - while offering its own citizens only a culture of blame, corruption and lethargy.

It's a matter of culture, not race. In the free atmosphere of America, Arabs do as well as anyone else. All populations have their share of talent - but the oppressive environment of the Middle East enervates those individuals it does not crush entirely.

Iraq has been given a chance to break free of the thrall of a bankrupt culture, to establish a rule-of-law democratic government observant of human rights. But the chances are increasingly good that Iraq's Arabs will fail to achieve and maintain even minimal standards of good governance.

The time has not yet come, but, contrary to the sort of diplomatic wisdom that so long protected Saddam, we can walk away if Iraq's Arabs refuse to help themselves. And we can break up the country to protect the Kurds - a far better solution than turning Iraq over to the venal brokers of the United Nations.

The failure of Arab civilization in our time is the greatest such disaster in mankind's history. And, bitter though we find the proposition, the failure is so colossal that it cannot be neatly contained. Whether in Iraq today or elsewhere tomorrow, we cannot fully extract ourselves from this problem simply because our enemies won't let go.

If Iraq chooses failure, we can leave. But we'll be back, somewhere in the Middle East. Because, as we saw on 9/11, the Middle East will continue to come to us. Blame is the opium of the Arabs, and the sweetest blame for their failures is that directed at the United States (and, of course, Israel). It is our power itself, not its uses, that enrages Arabs trapped in their self-made weakness.

The oft-cited examples of the Arab world's problems, from a lack of interest in secular education and a poor work ethic to staggering corruption and the oppression of women, are symptoms, not root causes, of Arab failure. Past a certain analytical point, we come up against the wall of our own taboos - we cannot admit that the psychological premises of an entire civilization might be dysfunctional. Arab failure isn't about that which has been done to the Middle East, but that which the Middle East has done to itself.

Iraq still has a chance, if a slimmer one than we had hoped. But even if Iraq's Arabs disappoint our ambitions, our efforts will have been worthy and our losses not in vain. Intervention was unavoidable, whatever the critics say. Continued passivity in the face of the Middle East's implosion would only have made the price higher in the end.

We all would be better off were the Arabs to surprise us by building healthy, prosperous, modern societies. We would be foolish not to wish them well. But we would be equally foolish not to prepare ourselves for the consequences of their accelerating failure.

Ralph Peters is the author of "Beyond Baghdad: Postmodern War and Peace."


http://www.nypost.com/seven/04232004/postopinion/opedcolumnists/19362.htm


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