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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Tripping for Recreational vs. Spiritual Purposes
    #3119323 - 09/10/04 06:05 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

I have sometimes caught flak from some people on this board who think I don't treat mushrooms with enough respect. They think that tripping should be only for spiritual enlightenment, and not for fun. Frankly, I see this as a false dichotomy. I have had some great spiritual insights while tripping for fun with my friends, and I've also had a blast while searching for spiritual insight. I do not see the two as mutually exclusive. I think that in general, particularly in Western cultures, there is an attitude that spirituality involves a solemn expression and a shunning of idle pleasure. I happen to think that laughing your ass off with your friends can be a very spiritual moment, and feeling one with God can feel quite pleasant. Who's with me on this?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineTodcasil
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Re: Tripping for Recreational vs. Spiritual Purposes [Re: silversoul7]
    #3119344 - 09/10/04 06:12 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

i agree.

laughter is an attribute of "God".

when you go to see the face of the universe, its inevitable that you are going to have to laugh at yourself first.

i suppose laughing at yourself is a form of attaining ego death. it is just one path of many of facing your fears/personality/ego and realizing it is absurd, and that you just have to let it go.

alternativly, you could plunge yourself into a hell realm, and come out equally as enlightened, or equally as ignorant of the situation at hand.

peace


--------------------
Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Tripping for Recreational vs. Spiritual Purposes [Re: silversoul7]
    #3119683 - 09/10/04 07:55 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

First of all..

You've passed postcount 22K.. you're making the site! :thumbup:

Well.. In the Elves/Uruk-hai thread i made an analogy between these archetypes and Ascetes and Hedonists. The Elf is the kind that sits on top of a snowy mountain with his bare ass in the snow, the Orc literally rolls over the floor laughing in shocking drunkenness.
You need both sides of the coin or you have no coin at all.



Quote:

I think that in general, particularly in Western cultures, there is an attitude that spirituality involves a solemn expression and a shunning of idle pleasure.



This is called Ascetic Spirituality

Quote:

I happen to think that laughing your ass off with your friends can be a very spiritual moment, and feeling one with God can feel quite pleasant.



This is called Hedonistic Spirituality



I put heavy emphasis on Meditative/Growth, but it must be lighthearted while serious. I am much more hedonist then ascete because I believe Life's higher rewards come with pleasure, but my Ascete advocates toil and suffering if it is called for and march if the situation demands it to attain the higher good.

Mushrooms are to be approached by going with the flow with a religious vigor. For me the flow almost always includes hardships, but it is cushioned by joy, blisses and raptures.
You should be able in the after-phase to discuss the Nature of God and briefly interrupt that to press out a beastly fart thats been an hour in the coming. :grin: There should be an atmosphere of deep acceptance and Brotherhood in the Team. Everybody should be able to do their thing, and with my Team that includes that there is a group thing and secludedness for retreat and in-depth meditation if it is called for.

If everybody does his/her thing AND goes with the flow its often a good thing, but the key lies whether you are commited in your Life to do the work and not flee growth, spirituality and responsibilities.

To me 100% hold-that-fart-and-look-solemn would be as hellish as 100% shallow-fun-but-don't-go-there.

If you as an experienced user strike up a Trip for more mundane purposes it is basically OK, as long as you are willing to face and do the Work if it arrives.


As for my Team we start in seriousness but in high spirits of fun and cheer and because of our serious spirituality the Higher Force will manifest itself, amidst joy, or it will simply be a joyous celebration of our friendship and life itself.

It has an other interpretation but Deus ex Machina basically means: pulling God out of the Machine and thats the notion I get from strict solemn tripping. A Session should be born in joy and celebration. If the Highest Force decides to bless us with Its presence in Mysterious Ways we feel touched within. If there is to be suffering, we will lie down and suffer it to its full extent.
If no insight or Divine intervention arises, it is a joyous celebration. And I wouldn't want a Group session with my Team any other way and neither do they, so just like you I am a Spiritual Hedonist and that works for me :thumbup:


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Tripping for Recreational vs. Spiritual Purposes [Re: silversoul7]
    #3119716 - 09/10/04 08:04 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Yeah, definitely.

I started very ignorantly for fun, knowing nothing about spirituality or its links to psychedelics. But once I had started, something had changed, and went on changing up to who I am now.

And my experiences tell me you're right, except that I wouldn't call my most extreme spiritual trips fun. The feeling involved was more blissful awe, or aweful bliss, whichever.
And I also think you should adapt the doses to the purpose: can you have a recreational trip on 7 grams?


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Tripping for Recreational vs. Spiritual Purposes [Re: silversoul7]
    #3119737 - 09/10/04 08:09 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

I think if you take trips too seriously or too philosophicaly you can drive yourself nuts. My psychedelic experiences were fairly spiritual in their intent early on, but I now would just rather have a good time than trying to contemplate the impossible.

At any rate, if you don't try to have a philosophical or spiritual trip you will probobly be analyzing less and learning more and in a deeper way.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Tripping for Recreational vs. Spiritual Purposes [Re: silversoul7]
    #3119820 - 09/10/04 08:34 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

I'm 100% with you. Infact, when I saw the thread title, I already knew my answer. Before the page was loaded, I was ready to type pretty much exactly what you said in regards to this situation.

People like to think too black and white. We live in the grey zone.


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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Tripping for Recreational vs. Spiritual Purposes [Re: silversoul7]
    #3119836 - 09/10/04 08:40 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Heheh,im glad this conversation pops up again,it is on one of the subjects that you just cant have enough of!

My take on the subject:

Is recreation and spirituality tottaly unlinked? Not in my book.Let me say though that i employ mushrooms rarely and at big doses +MAO inhibitors.

When im having the experience it contains a "fun" element as well which the first time i tried them startled me...You see i wasnt after the euphoria i felt,i was after what i called "trippy" a "darker" more "in the weird and unexplored dark corners of my psyche " type of thing.IN later trips i appreciated the euphoria and fun as well.It is as wiccan put it a kind of "Hedonistic spirituality".Yes you can feel damn good,yes you can experience awe,but certainly at bigger doses on empty stomach with mao inhibitors you cant just "watch a movie on them","party in a room with 50 people" or "go for clubbing".

Using them for a spiritual purpose does not mean that you are going to miss the laughs,the mushroomy sillyness,or not listen to your favorite track on the cd.It mostly means that you will not run away from bigger,earth shattering events in the trip such as stumbling to a deep buried problem that requires some review,ego death or even some self analysis.And yes,you can let out that fart and laugh about it,nothing bad about that.

So what triggrers those people telling you off and trying to draw a line between spirituality and recreation? Recreation on itself is very nice.You are Re-Created,RE-BORNED,RE-STORED by feeling nice and experiencing awe,maybe laughing till you cant laugh anymore and vent out many feelings letting of some steam. Thats the original meaning of recreation.

What happens though when people name "getting continuously fucked up" and "being irresponsible" recreation?Then "recreational use" gets a nasty meaning..There are some people out there (and i met some that do that) that can and will drink 5 beers,pop a benzo of some sort ,eat an ecstasy tab,eat antiparkinsos meds such as akineton,eat some mushrooms,smoke weed and chainsmoke cigarretes trying not to pass out,and they do this every saturday night.They name it "recreation".Some other people can go through 20 gramms of dried mushrooms in a week,and when they finish with that top up on alcohol and any psychoactive they can get their hands on.They name "polydrug abuse" recreation and "fun".

See,the problem is that if those people keep up this behaviour they are going to a)put themselves in trouble b) put the legal status of some yet legal substances in trouble (through harmingthemselves ) c)if an ego death moment arises or anything of that nature they get scared-panicked-in ER because they just wanted to have "fun",not appreciating the moment nor milking the trip to its fullest potential and finally d) in the end blame "drugs" making them "crazy" or "hurting" them.

Now,this behaviour is what i do not like...Its not RE-CREATION it is DE-STRUCTION.

There are many "drugs" people can have fun with ,but psychedelics have potential that alcohol,vicodins and cocaine lack.If someone abuses psychedelics then a time will come that he/she will freak out if all he/she wanted was careless fun without taking into account their more "psychoanalytical" properties.UNfortunatelly abusers and polydrug abusers tend to shit themselves when psychedelics reveal their powerfull earthshattering powers.And then...They blame the drug (NB.The drug cannot sue someone for discrediting its name :laugh: )

So in my book nothing prevents you from having your laughs as long as you do it responsibly.If some people on the other hand equate spirituality with being phenomenical very serious and not allowing themselves a chuckle then thats not spirituality.They look constipated to me.Emotionally constipated.Making a wild theory out of a trip or dogmatizing it to bits can be a regress to spiritual progress not an advancement.

To summarize:i know how to have recreational time on a psychedelic and some chuckles,but i also know how to be serious and contemplative when moment arises.


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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Tripping for Recreational vs. Spiritual Purposes [Re: Psiloman]
    #3119896 - 09/10/04 08:59 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

As an adjunct to what i have said.

Please lets put a rest naming foolishness ,irresponsibility and "psychological addiction to altered states of consciousness" as "Recreation".Unfortunatelly some people have their whole life revolving around psychotropics,they cant have fun without them,they cannot live without being "under the influence".Im pissed of when those people call the recreation

Recreational use is by definition nice and in your recreated form you can advance spiritually.While addicted,"wasted" or "fucked up" one cannot progress....Having a chuckle or a nice time is very helpfull and reinvigorating.In that sence abuse and dependancies is not recreation.

Ummm...just trying to reset the meanign of recreation with my post.

Sorry for the rant...


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Tripping for Recreational vs. Spiritual Purposes [Re: silversoul7]
    #3120011 - 09/10/04 09:40 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

I agree. Mushrooms should be eaten for fun, and if you have any spiritual insights whilst on them, so much the better!


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: Tripping for Recreational vs. Spiritual Purposes [Re: silversoul7]
    #3120038 - 09/10/04 09:47 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

i hope each time i consume mushrooms that my experience will be beautiful or spiritual. Unfortunately it doesn't always work out that way. I might have a bad trip or it may just be fun with a good body feeling. Its the best when I'm not expecting anything special and I have a mind expanding beautiful experience.  :tongue:


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Tripping for Recreational vs. Spiritual Purposes [Re: silversoul7]
    #3120090 - 09/10/04 10:09 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

I wonder if it's like a control thing that you see with religions. Fun is bad!!! ya know?


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Tripping for Recreational vs. Spiritual Purposes [Re: silversoul7]
    #3120100 - 09/10/04 10:12 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

I agree, wholeheartedly.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Tripping for Recreational vs. Spiritual Purposes [Re: silversoul7]
    #3120296 - 09/10/04 10:54 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

They should be fun, BUT they should also be treated respectfully. Self discovery should be fun, but there must be reasonable guidelines.


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Invisiblejux
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Re: Tripping for Recreational vs. Spiritual Purposes [Re: silversoul7]
    #3120464 - 09/10/04 11:23 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

:thumbup: :thumbup: couldn't agree more. two thumbs up

hooray for shrooms! whatever the occasion!


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Tripping for Recreational vs. Spiritual Purposes [Re: silversoul7]
    #3120811 - 09/11/04 12:50 AM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Fun IS spiritual.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineZoso_UK
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Re: Tripping for Recreational vs. Spiritual Purposes [Re: Evolving]
    #3121418 - 09/11/04 05:57 AM (13 years, 11 days ago)

i agree with evolving :thumbup:

spirituality should be fun  :stoned:  but there should also be a certain amount of respect for the shrooms that is manifested through 'sensible' usage (not all the time and not jst for things like parties)  :mushroom2:


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Tripping for Recreational vs. Spiritual Purposes [Re: silversoul7]
    #3121433 - 09/11/04 06:27 AM (13 years, 11 days ago)

indeed


the way it's gone for me lately, it's better to combine the two, why go one way when you can go both?  :laugh:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Onlinewrestler_az
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Re: Tripping for Recreational vs. Spiritual Purposes [Re: Aldous]
    #3121953 - 09/11/04 01:02 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Aldous said:
can you have a recreational trip on 7 grams?




yes, you can!
but only if, like me, you see being convinced you are dead and stuck inbetween life and afterlife, left to haunt your mothers house for all eternity recreational :grin:


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  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Tripping for Recreational vs. Spiritual Purposes [Re: wrestler_az]
    #3121980 - 09/11/04 01:11 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

wrestler_az said:
Quote:

Aldous said:
can you have a recreational trip on 7 grams?




yes, you can!
but only if, like me, you see being convinced you are dead and stuck inbetween life and afterlife, left to haunt your mothers house for all eternity recreational :grin:



I know I do.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Tripping for Recreational vs. Spiritual Purposes [Re: silversoul7]
    #3126451 - 09/12/04 06:19 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

An example of the blurred line between these two aspects: I just took some DPT I had been saving for a while. There was no particular reason I decided to do it today. I just felt like having an intense trip. Upon peaking, I experienced the very spiritual AND very pleasurable feeling of being one with God and all creation. I felt completely at peace with the universe. Now, this was obviously a very spiritual experience, but the spiritual aspects emboddied the most ecstatic feelings of peace and serenity, and thus could be considered recreational or hedonistic as well.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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