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OfflineFirstAvailable
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Shroom Extraction with Butane. Possible?????
    #3118873 - 09/10/04 04:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I was wondering if it was possible to use butane for a mushroom extraction. Similar to a hash oil extraction with weed.


Thanks.


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OfflineOpenminded
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Re: Shroom Extraction with Butane. Possible????? [Re: FirstAvailable]
    #3118913 - 09/10/04 04:21 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

If you made sure that your mushrooms were basified first then you might have reasonable success, even though psiloc(yb)in are quite polar alkaloids anyway due to the hydroxy/phosphoryloxy groups.
I'd say it's certainly worth a try. After all, if it doesn't extract the alkaloids, then your mushrooms will be just as good as they were at the start!


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OfflineZeroArmy27
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Re: Shroom Extraction with Butane. Possible????? [Re: Openminded]
    #3118929 - 09/10/04 04:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Just as with a hash oil extraction, make sure to get rid of all of the butane before you consume it. Be careful with butane, it's explosive and really volitle(sp?). I've lost a vial or two of hash oil to the low boiling point of butane, and it's a sad, sad thing when it happens. Good luck trying... post pictures and results if you can.


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OfflineLegoulash
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Re: Shroom Extraction with Butane. Possible????? [Re: ZeroArmy27]
    #3153712 - 09/19/04 09:55 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

So it does work? THC and psilocybin are very differnt, this could be very usful for alot of people.. I have few friends that wont eat them because of stomach cramps and shit..


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OfflineOpenminded
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Re: Shroom Extraction with Butane. Possible????? [Re: Legoulash]
    #3155293 - 09/20/04 12:52 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

It MIGHT work, but might be no better than a methanol extraction, for example. I'm sure that butane would extract less urea than alcohols do, but it could possibly extract more fats...
One main advantage of butane would be that it's easy to evapourate off the solvent, but as ZeroArmy27 pointed out, this can have drawbacks as well...


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Offlinevc77
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Re: Shroom Extraction with Butane. Possible????? [Re: FirstAvailable]
    #3155555 - 09/20/04 02:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I used acetone to make hash oil once, and didn't completely burn off all of the acetone. It smelled fine but the smoke was horrid, and I wasted a fat nug too :frown:

So just make sure you keep it on a low low boil until its thick, and if you arent sure, boil some more.


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OfflineGr0wer
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Re: Shroom Extraction with Butane. Possible????? [Re: vc77]
    #3156494 - 09/20/04 05:21 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Acitone you dont need to boil, just leave it outsdide with somehting over it so nothing falls in like a chair or table. Then bring it inside once its all evaped and let it dry for a day then scrape it up and roll it into a ball. Then let that cure for 1-2 days and it should be nice.


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Offlinevc77
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Re: Shroom Extraction with Butane. Possible????? [Re: Gr0wer]
    #3156532 - 09/20/04 05:31 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Thats how I usually go about it, but if you put it in a pot on an electric stove at say, low to low/med it will boil off at a low temp like that. I was obviously in a hurry and learned my lesson :wink:


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OfflinekronnyQ
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Re: Shroom Extraction with Butane. Possible????? [Re: vc77]
    #3178002 - 09/25/04 04:38 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I am going to attempt a psilocybin extraction with ether in a couple of weeks, will let you guys know how it goes.

I have done an extraction before using alcohol, however the extract was not very potent.


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OfflineWeaver
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Re: Shroom Extraction with Butane. Possible????? [Re: FirstAvailable]
    #4081605 - 04/21/05 04:39 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Butane is a non-polar solvent and so only works on non-polar extracts. Psilocybin is an alkaloid (salt/polar) and it's very unlikely you would get much if any at all from using butane. You would have much better results using plan distilled H2O and save your butane for Honey Hash Oil extracts. Way to think outside the box though, thats how we discover new shit.  :thumbup:


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Offlinegryphix
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Re: Shroom Extraction with Butane. Possible????? [Re: FirstAvailable]
    #4081828 - 04/21/05 05:41 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Here is a write up of methods put together by our friends at the DEA, on a time basis acetic acid seems much better than methanol but I'm not sure if as much is extracted.
http://www.dea.gov/programs/forensicsci/microgram/journal071203/mj071203_pg4.html


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Shroom Extraction with Butane. Possible????? [Re: kronnyQ]
    #4083657 - 04/22/05 03:01 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Excellent papers on the subject:

http://frigo.ath.cx/chemistry/psilocin.extraction.html

^^I'll be trying that one today, substituting the ether with hexane (yes, I have the chloroform : ).

http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_journal1.shtml


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Shroom Extraction with Butane. Possible????? [Re: Weaver]
    #4083708 - 04/22/05 03:17 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Psilocybin is an alkaloid, but at neutral pH it is only moderately ionized (due to the acidity of the phosphate group, not the basicity of the amine).  It is slightly polar, but even so, it is only sparingly soluble in water.  Psilocin is even less soluble in water.  If you extract with water only, you will be left with a large volume of un-reducible liquid (unless you happen to have a soxhlet apparatus, in which case water could be an excellent solvent). 

Butane may turn out to be a good solvent for both psilocybin and psilocin freebase.  But, almost any single-step extraction (except for water using a soxhlet) will produce a mix of different oils and resins (especially when using a highly non-polar solvent).  That's why in the article I posted above (and the DEA one above that), they extract first with acidic water, then basify and extract with non-polar solvent. 

I recently tried an extraction with a mix of alcohols and non-polars and ended up with some wax and some oil.  If you're not looking for crystalline product then this really doesn't matter though. 

Try it.

And post the results :smile:

[edit: tidied up a bit]


Edited by ChuangTzu (04/22/05 05:35 AM)


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Offlinepyronicx
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Re: Shroom Extraction with Butane. Possible????? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #4084325 - 04/22/05 11:01 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

yea post the results =]


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InvisibleArsey
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Re: Shroom Extraction with Butane. Possible????? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #4084786 - 04/22/05 01:44 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Terming "Psilocybin" as an alkaloid may not be so appropriate since it exists as a zwitterion, meaning that it has both negative and positive charges within the same molecule. Alkaloid kinda implies it's a base but not necesarrily.

Regradless...

I think the whole generalized polar / non-polar logic doesn't work well with this one. If I recall there was an extraction by A. Hoffman the first used a wash of DCM or chloroform followed by acetone, both of which were discarded. The final extraction employed MeOH.

Considering both and choloroform are very non-polar, and acetone is not only relatively polar but aprotic, by the the generalized polar/nonpolar solvent logic there should have been nothing left to extract!

As far as the DEA extraction goes, the methods appear to be intended as a qualitative analysis for an illegal compound. Fortunately for them, it doesn't matter wether it's psilocybin or psilocin as long as they can detect traces of controlled substance. When you take into consideration the molecules potential for greater stability with the phosphate moiety left intact, it seems that extracting prodominantly psilocybin would prove beneficial versus a method which is intended to dephosphorylate the bulk of the material.

The bottom line...

I think butane will only serve to defat the material. Furthermore, I think any significantly acidic extraction technique will result in a mass dephosphorylation that will render the product relatively unstable if left in the crude form and/or exposed to air and light. that may work just fine however, if there are no plans to store it for any length of time.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Shroom Extraction with Butane. Possible????? [Re: Arsey]
    #4084971 - 04/22/05 02:44 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Did you mean to reply to me or to Weaver?


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InvisibleArsey
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Re: Shroom Extraction with Butane. Possible????? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #4087952 - 04/23/05 11:15 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

A little of both.


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Re: Shroom Extraction with Butane. Possible????? [Re: Arsey]
    #4088345 - 04/23/05 02:21 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

In that case...
Quote:

Arsey said:
Terming "Psilocybin" as an alkaloid may not be so appropriate since it exists as a zwitterion, meaning that it has both negative and positive charges within the same molecule. Alkaloid kinda implies it's a base but not necesarrily.




I don't think it's necessary to go into the semantics of the word alkaloid for the purposes of this discussion. But since you brought it up, both psilocybin and psilocin are commonly referred to as alkaloids in the literature. And it seems to be fitting--the most common general definition of alkaloid is roughly (quoting wikipedia here):

Quote:

An alkaloid is a nitrogenous organic molecule that has a pharmacological effect on humans and other animals.



Stricter definitions bring in the requirements of an N-containing heterocycle and natural origins, both of which are satisfied by psilocin and psilocybin.

Quote:


I think the whole generalized polar / non-polar logic doesn't work well with this one. If I recall there was an extraction by A. Hoffman the first used a wash of DCM or chloroform followed by acetone, both of which were discarded. The final extraction employed MeOH.

Considering both and choloroform are very non-polar, and acetone is not only relatively polar but aprotic, by the the generalized polar/nonpolar solvent logic there should have been nothing left to extract!




Yeah, I agree. Both psilocybin and psilocin behave rather strangely with respect to solubility. That Hoffman extraction seems flawed for at least 1 reason though--psilocin is soluble in chloroform. So perhaps he was only intending the extract psilocybin.

Quote:


The bottom line...

I think butane will only serve to defat the material.




There is a good chance that the butane will dissolve the psilocin.

Quote:


Furthermore, I think any significantly acidic extraction technique will result in a mass dephosphorylation that will render the product relatively unstable if left in the crude form and/or exposed to air and light. that may work just fine however, if there are no plans to store it for any length of time.



Agreed.


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