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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Blind allegiance to the 2nd Amendment by Bush
    #3113131 - 09/09/04 01:20 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

So if you believe that the 2nd amendment means that we should be able to possess automatic weapons.

Your logic might be that you want the right to bear arms against a corrupt government as individuals.
From there logic says that for you as an individual to have a chance against a government with infinite technology you should be able to posses that same technology to be on the same playing field. We all no that this logic is faulty because we can not entrust nuclear weapons, grenades, or machine guns in our neighborhoods.

If you believe we should be able to posses weapons as collectors items then you should make a sacrifise of your unneccesary hobby so that we all can enjoy knowing that its not so easy for terrorists to build armies in our country. To me its really no comparison.

Bush plans on letting the weapons ban expire yet he said he supported it. He is letting it expire with no alternative plan of his own. He has had 4 years to come up with a plan and he has none.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Blind allegiance to the 2nd Amendment by Bush [Re: 1stimer]
    #3113156 - 09/09/04 01:25 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

> We all no that this logic is faulty because we can not entrust nuclear weapons, grenades, or machine guns in our neighborhoods.

So those countries that require each household to have a machine gun must follow a different set of logic rules than the rest of us?

> then you should make a sacrifise of your unneccesary hobby so that we all can enjoy knowing that its not so easy for terrorists to build armies in our country.

Why don't you give up driving, electricity, central heat, or anything else that uses oil... you know, a small sacrifice on your part so it is not so easy for terrorists to fund armies in our country. (what country are we in again?)


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Blind allegiance to the 2nd Amendment by Bush [Re: 1stimer]
    #3113179 - 09/09/04 01:33 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I've said it before, but I would like to reiterate. If we focused more time, effort and money on education, on a complete overhaul of the justice and penal systems and also were able to drop unemployment and poverty rates.. then what law-abiding citizens did with whatever guns they had wouldn't be much of a problem.

Until then we have too many forces working against a large portion of the population, driving them to extremes of violence and into gang mentalities. Relaxing the drug laws would also go a long way to helping cut down on "gun crime". There is that old saying about how if you outlaw guns, only outlaws have guns. Well I say we try to get rid of the factors that foment and perpetuate such a high rate of lawlessness.

Just my opinion.


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Happiness is a warm gun...


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: Blind allegiance to the 2nd Amendment by Bush [Re: unbeliever]
    #3113208 - 09/09/04 01:46 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

There is that old saying about how if you outlaw guns, only outlaws have guns.




Deaths from guns go down statistically. look at the numbers.

Quote:

> then you should make a sacrifise of your unneccesary hobby so that we all can enjoy knowing that its not so easy for terrorists to build armies in our country.

Why don't you give up driving, electricity, central heat, or anything else that uses oil.




Driving, and central heat dont have a sole purpose of killing people.


Quote:

So those countries that require each household to have a machine gun must follow a different set of logic rules than the rest of us?




What are you trying to say? "Logic rules" What are you talking about?


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Blind allegiance to the 2nd Amendment by Bush [Re: 1stimer]
    #3113223 - 09/09/04 01:51 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I recall reading a study, done in Florida centered around a time when they relaxed the waiting period and other restrictions on handguns. The conclusion of the study was that as more people purchased and owned guns, crimes against person went down (while crimes against property rose slightly). So instead of getting car jacked at knife/gun point, your car gets stolen from the walmart parking lot I guess.

These other "numbers" you're talking about, got any links to them? Also you ignored 99.9% of the rest of my post, which in fact was very much qualifying the one statement you took out of context. Why?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Blind allegiance to the 2nd Amendment by Bush [Re: 1stimer]
    #3113247 - 09/09/04 01:55 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

You obviously don't understand the "assault weapons ban" and what
it does.

Automatic weapons are ones where you hold in the trigger and
the gun shoots repeatedly.

Semi-automatic weapons are ones where you have to pull the trigger
each time for a bullet to fire.

Automatic weapons are illegal to own unless you have a very
expensive and hard to get license.

All of these "assault rifles" that are "regulated" under the assault
weapons ban are semi-automatic. Semi-automatic guns are perfectly
legal to own.

This law made certain characteristics on guns illegal to manufacture
anymore...such as a collapsible stock. Also, it made it so that
you could only have two of any certain amount of characteristics
on one gun. It did not illegalize all of the old guns that had
all of those characteristics(i.e. they are still legal and in
circulation), and it imposed rules on non-lethal characteristics
of legal guns to be manufactured. Does that make any sense to you?

Regulating non-lethal things on guns and allowing the guns themselves
to remain legal, and allowing all of the old guns with all of those
characteristics to remain legal and in circulation. Do you think
that is going to do anything to stop crime?

It is nothing but a symbolic law that people are woefully
misinformed about. At first it sounds good. Assault weapons
that look all "dangerous" are being made illegal. That is not
what happened at all with this law. And, assault weapons play
such a small role in crime. It is handguns that are used in
most crimes.

This is the dumbest law. It does nothing. The expiration
of this law will not make automatic guns legal.

That is how I understand it. If I am wrong or have left anything out,
someone please correct me.


Edited by RandalFlagg (09/09/04 02:10 PM)


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: Blind allegiance to the 2nd Amendment by Bush [Re: 1stimer]
    #3113272 - 09/09/04 02:04 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

then you should make a sacrifise of your unneccesary hobby so that we all can enjoy knowing that its not so easy for terrorists to build armies in our country.




>> Why don't you give up driving, electricity, central heat, or anything else that uses oil.

> Driving, and central heat dont have a sole purpose of killing people.

No, but using oil supports terrorism. You were linking antique gun ownership to supporting terrorism. The use of oil funds terrorism much more than antique guns.

>> So those countries that require each household to have a machine gun must follow a different set of logic rules than the rest of us?
> What are you trying to say? "Logic rules" What are you talking about?

Some countries, such as Switzerland, require that every household have an automatic assualt rifle. They don't seem to have problems with gun violence even though everybody has easy access to weapons. This demonstrates that your original statement, that we cannot trust people with assult class weapons (paraphrased), is obviously incorrect.

You want me to give up my pointless gun collection hobby to stop terrorism... I want you to give up your pointless oil use to stop terrorism. My point here is that it is easy to ask others to give something up, but not so easy to give up what we hold dear to our own hearts. The world always looks better through rose colored glasses, but reality will always bite us...


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Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Blind allegiance to the 2nd Amendment by Bush [Re: 1stimer]
    #3113276 - 09/09/04 02:05 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

1stimer said:
Quote:

There is that old saying about how if you outlaw guns, only outlaws have guns.




Deaths from guns go down statistically. look at the numbers.



Please provide the numbers. Please show that crime rates in Australia and Great Britain have plummeted with the outlawing of various guns. Please show the statistics of jurisdictions in the U.S. that have enacted right to carry laws and compare them with jurisdictions in the U.S. where the right to carry is illegal or severely restricted or have outlawed certain firearms. For these same regions please provide figures for before and after legislation was enacted.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Anonymous

Re: Blind allegiance to the 2nd Amendment by Bush [Re: 1stimer]
    #3113278 - 09/09/04 02:06 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)


Your logic might be that you want the right to bear arms against a corrupt government as individuals.


that is not the reason, only a reason.

From there logic says that for you as an individual to have a chance against a government with infinite technology you should be able to posses that same technology to be on the same playing field.

not at all. the government has neither unlimited technology, strength, nor unity. your "logic" addresses only one possible scenario for armed strife.it is clear that you do not appreciate the many different scenarios in which a situation can disintegrate into open armed combat, scenarioes in which owning and knowing how to operate a military rifle would be very advantageous.

look... i'm not saying that a small group of citizens, as long as they had some military rifles, could go toe to toe against the full might of the US military and succeed. what about a civil war though? what about total chaos following a terrible natural disaster or terrorist attack? economic collapse? etc. etc.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Blind allegiance to the 2nd Amendment by Bush [Re: ]
    #3113294 - 09/09/04 02:11 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:

Your logic might be that you want the right to bear arms against a corrupt government as individuals.


that is not the reason, only a reason.

From there logic says that for you as an individual to have a chance against a government with infinite technology you should be able to posses that same technology to be on the same playing field.

not at all. the government has neither unlimited technology, strength, nor unity. your "logic" addresses only one possible scenario for armed strife.it is clear that you do not appreciate the many different scenarios in which a situation can disintegrate into open armed combat, scenarioes in which owning and knowing how to operate a military rifle would be very advantageous.

look... i'm not saying that a small group of citizens, as long as they had some military rifles, could go toe to toe against the full might of the US military and succeed. what about a civil war though? what about total chaos following a terrible natural disaster or terrorist attack? economic collapse? etc. etc.




Just look at Fallujah and other places in Iraq, or further back to Vietnam. Coordinated guerilla tactics, using only small arms, can do a heck of a lot of damage to the other side.


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: Blind allegiance to the 2nd Amendment by Bush [Re: Seuss]
    #3113306 - 09/09/04 02:13 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I want you to give up your pointless oil use to stop terrorism.



That is something I wish the government would support more but Bush is in office. I want to drive cleaner cars but the Bush administration is so drenched in oil they cant see straight. They dont support policies and funding that would encourage cleaner and more reliable energy. They dont fund research and they dont follow pollution regulations.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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Anonymous

Re: Blind allegiance to the 2nd Amendment by Bush [Re: 1stimer]
    #3113341 - 09/09/04 02:22 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

from your other thread:

Because when George W lets the gun law expire, he going to just let it expire. Then we can all go buy machine guns.

you haven't read a single thing about the assault weapons ban, have you? the assault weapons ban doesn't ban machine guns. it bans semi-automatic rifles with certain cosmetic features.

"The semi-automatic weapons' menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion over fully automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons ? anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun ? can only increase that chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons."

- Josh Sugarmann of the Violence Policy Center

congratulations. you've been duped by the anti-gun lobby.


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: Blind allegiance to the 2nd Amendment by Bush [Re: ]
    #3113348 - 09/09/04 02:25 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

if you didnt catch my humor, i was using the word machine gun as a hyperbole. excuse me, let me call them instead, highly powerfull guns.


--------------------
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Anonymous

Re: Blind allegiance to the 2nd Amendment by Bush [Re: 1stimer]
    #3113385 - 09/09/04 02:30 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

if you didnt catch my humor, i was using the word machine gun as a hyperbole. excuse me, let me call them instead, highly powerfull guns.

the assault weapons ban does not restrict weapons based on how powerful they are. hunting rifles, most of which are not covered by the ban, are actually more powerful than their military cousins.

i say again...

the ban prohibits weapons based on cosmetic characteristics such as the shape of the grips, whether or not it can accept a bayonet, and whether or not the stock is retractable.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Blind allegiance to the 2nd Amendment by Bush [Re: ]
    #3113403 - 09/09/04 02:34 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

> hunting rifles, most of which are not covered by the ban, are actually more powerful than their military cousins.

Depends upon the weapon and the ammo that are being compared. Most military weapons use .308 which is a middle of the road round... Not as powerful as a win .300, which is a common hunting round... not much is as powerful as a .50 round, which is a common military round and seldom, if ever, seen in hunting.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Blind allegiance to the 2nd Amendment by Bush [Re: Seuss]
    #3113587 - 09/09/04 03:07 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Most military weapons use .308 which is a middle of the road round...



Actually the .308 (7.62mm x 51mm) is not as widely used as it used to be when the standard rifle was the M1A/M14. This changed with the adoption of the M16 as the standard rifle (in 5.56mm NATO) in 1964. Although the .308 is still widely used as a sniper round and by some special operations groups I think it would be fair to say that the 5.56mm is probably the most widely used.

** edit ** Note: the semi-auto version of the military's M14, the M1A was not subject to the expiring assault weapons ban.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Blind allegiance to the 2nd Amendment by Bush [Re: 1stimer]
    #3115403 - 09/09/04 08:58 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

That is something I wish the government would support more but Bush is in office. I want to drive cleaner cars but the Bush administration is so drenched in oil they cant see straight. They dont support policies and funding that would encourage cleaner and more reliable energy. They dont fund research and they dont follow pollution regulations.




So drive a fucking cleaner car. Who's stopping you? Why should they fund research in a commercial realm or encourage anything by any other means than education? The only research I think the gov should fund is the really huge shit, like the superconducting supercollider that they pulled the plug on. The rest, including medicine, should be left in the hands of commercial interests, where it is most efficiently pursued.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Blind allegiance to the 2nd Amendment by Bush [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3115477 - 09/09/04 09:14 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

That is something I wish the government would support more but Bush is in office. I want to drive cleaner cars but the Bush administration is so drenched in oil they cant see straight. They dont support policies and funding that would encourage cleaner and more reliable energy. They dont fund research and they dont follow pollution regulations.




So drive a fucking cleaner car. Who's stopping you? Why should they fund research in a commercial realm or encourage anything by any other means than education? The only research I think the gov should fund is the really huge shit, like the superconducting supercollider that they pulled the plug on. The rest, including medicine, should be left in the hands of commercial interests, where it is most efficiently pursued.




Wow. Quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard. They shouldn't fund research for things to save lives (medicine) or save the planet (alternative fuel source) but instead should put the money into shit that will basically let us build a better bomb, but not a whole let else of immediate use. Wait, you're a libertarian, right? That explains it. I guess you have enough money that if you or someone you care about got cancer, or parkinson's or aids, or a myriad of other diseases, you could just whip up a cure or at least provide the best care until they died? Kudos to you. If you were in charge, kids would still be getting polio.


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Happiness is a warm gun...


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Blind allegiance to the 2nd Amendment by Bush [Re: unbeliever]
    #3115527 - 09/09/04 09:25 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

The government didn't invent the polio vaccine.

pinky


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Blind allegiance to the 2nd Amendment by Bush [Re: unbeliever]
    #3115545 - 09/09/04 09:30 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Salk/Sabin polio vaccine, not US government polio vaccine. Developed by non-government research. Although it did receive some funding it was a COMMERCIAL achievement, as is almost every single medical advancement. Medicine should be strictly commercial, as they do it astonishingly well. The superconducting supercollider IS about the next source of energy. And much, much more.


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