Home | Community | Message Board


Shroom Supply
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Cheney's Statement, Taken Out of Context
    #3111621 - 09/09/04 02:36 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Here is what the Vice President said:
"It's absolutely essential that eight weeks from today, on Nov. 2, we make the right choice, because if we make the wrong choice then the danger is that we'll get hit again and we'll be hit in a way that will be devastating from the standpoint of the United States."

So far the press has universally interpereted this to mean: If Kerry wins terrorists will attack the US.

However, when I read it it seems clear what he saying is: If we have Kerry in the White House and THEN IF are attacked it could be devastating.

Most people have eroneously concluded that Cheney is saying the danger of another terrorist attack is dependent upon America making the 'wrong choice' in the election, but really he is saying the danger is dependent on how how we respond to a possible attack, and thus who is in the White House. In light of this, his statement about the danger of reverting to a Clinton era approach to terrorism as law-enforcement makes MUCH more sense.

It's sad how many people in the media are running with this when it is so obviously misenterpereted.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Cheney's Statement, Taken Out of Context [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3111671 - 09/09/04 02:48 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Ok, you're argument would have a leg to stand on if Cheney hadn't said these words "the danger is that we'll get hit again and..."

I don't wanna get into a whole thing about grammar and syntax, but that "and" right there separates the two points he's making. Kinda like "If you stand on a golf course in an electrical storm while holding a golf club, as opposed to not holding a club, the danger is you're going to be struck by lightening AND you'll be struck in a way that will probably kill you."
I'm making two points there. One is that if you stand on a golf course while holding a metal club, you're probably gonna get struck by lightening. AND, I'm also making the point that it's probably gonna kill you.
Do you honestly believe Cheney didn't mean to imply to the good morons in Des Moines that there's a greater chance of a terrorist attack if Kerry is elected?????
Please answer honestly.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineSkikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Re: Cheney's Statement, Taken Out of Context [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3111683 - 09/09/04 02:51 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Why didn't he say,

"Kerry couldn't respond to an attack like we can"

if that's what he meant. I see nothing about response, just the risk of getting "hit".


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Cheney's Statement, Taken Out of Context [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3111801 - 09/09/04 03:13 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Why in the hell would he say something like that running for re-election? No serious politican would make a gamble like that.

Having seen the clip on TV I can HONESTLY say that it really looks like he is just messing up his grammer. He is saying that the danger is having Kerry in the White House if an attack happens.

He did not say if we make the wrong choice we will have a higher likelyhood of an attack he said "if we make the wrong choice then the danger is that we'll get hit again."

The danger is being hit again having made the wrong choice. That seems plain to me, although he certainly could spoken more clearly.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineSkikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Re: Cheney's Statement, Taken Out of Context [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3111833 - 09/09/04 03:17 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Compare and contrast your statements in this thread and see if you can state the obvious glaring difference
Quote:

However, when I read it it seems clear what he saying is: If we have Kerry in the White House and THEN IF are attacked it could be devastating.





Quote:

The danger is being hit again having made the wrong choice.




--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Cheney's Statement, Taken Out of Context [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3111874 - 09/09/04 03:26 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Hmmm, ok. I'm beginning to see how Divided Sky is interpreting the statement the way he is. But I still absolutely believe Cheney's intention was to stir up fear.

And I'd bet my life on the following:
If you conducted a survey of very politically neutral people and showed them the following statement:

"If you elect Candidate X, the danger is that we'll get hit again and we'll be hit in a way that will be devastating from the standpoint of the United States."

The VAST majority of the people in the survey would take it to mean that "if we elect Candidate X, there's a greater chance of us getting hit."


Now, is there a chance that a very small percentage of people (and I'm talking 1 or 2 percent) wouldn't interperet it that way? Yes. But does all this add up to the media "so obviously" misinterpereting Cheney's statment? No.


Edited by Gijith (09/09/04 03:36 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 10,378
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: Cheney's Statement, Taken Out of Context [Re: Gijith]
    #3111896 - 09/09/04 03:33 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Obviously that's what he means.

If I was a terrorist, right now with Bush in office I'd be much less inclined to stage an attack on America than I would have been with Clinton, or would be with Kerry, in office. They both have very weak resolve when it comes to taking a stand on something.

It's like the bully at school.

If you stand up for yourself, they'll usually back off. You might take a shiner, and have to give one back, but that would be the end of it.
If you cower and shy away from their threats, they'll continue to harrass you to no end.
Nonaggression is seen as weakness. Sometimes you just need to ball up your fist and smack someone in the side of the head.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineSkikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Re: Cheney's Statement, Taken Out of Context [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3111920 - 09/09/04 03:38 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

If I was a terrorist, right now with Bush in office I'd be much less inclined to stage an attack on America than I would have been with Clinton, or would be with Kerry, in office. They both have very weak resolve when it comes to taking a stand on something.



Neither Clinton, nor Kerry have been presented with something as serious as 9/11 while President, so while you may think you know how they react, it is still pure conjecture.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 23 days, 56 minutes
Re: Cheney's Statement, Taken Out of Context [Re: Skikid16]
    #3112450 - 09/09/04 07:59 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

> Neither Clinton, nor Kerry have been presented with something as serious as 9/11 while President, so while you may think you know how they react, it is still pure conjecture.

Good point... we know how Bush#2 acted... continue reading childrens books, maybe they will hold the answer...  :grin:  (couldn't resist)


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
Re: Cheney's Statement, Taken Out of Context [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3112878 - 09/09/04 12:00 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

wow, what's it like to be able to predict the future?

D_S

he clearly states, if you make the wrong choice, the danger is
we'll get hit again and in a way that is devastating...

if you vote for the wrong person, we will (not if) get hit again
and in a way that is worse than had it been if you had made
the correct choice.

had he thrown in a couple conditionals, I could buy it, but it's
pretty definite.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Cheney's Statement, Taken Out of Context [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3112893 - 09/09/04 12:06 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

If I was a terrorist, right now with Bush in office I'd be much less inclined to stage an attack on America than I would have been with Clinton, or would be with Kerry, in office

Why? Bush has been the greatest recruitment office for arab extremism that Bin Laden could possibly have imagined in his wildest dreams. Bin Laden has played Bush like a deck of cards. Hopefully Kerry will be a little sharper.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Cheney's Statement, Taken Out of Context [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3112995 - 09/09/04 12:36 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I would encourage all of you guys to watch the clip again considering what I have said. The first time I saw it I thought he was saying 'vote for us or die' but then when I went back it seemed much clearer. I think alot of people are sticking to the first interpertation because they are being cynical and unfair. If you listen to the way he phrases the sentence it seems obvious to me what he really meant, but I guess on paper it is hard to see.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Cheney's Statement, Taken Out of Context [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3112999 - 09/09/04 12:36 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Cheney is a hard man to give the benefit of the doubt to.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Cheney's Statement, Taken Out of Context [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3113014 - 09/09/04 12:40 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

It wasn't like he was reading off a teleprompter. He was speaking candidly and misphrased things.

Even if Cheney is the devil himself, wouldn't he be smart enough to realize that scare tactics backfire, and would really just make him more vulnerable? Would he really deliberately say a thing like that knowing how the press pounces on anything he or Bush say? I think not.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Cheney's Statement, Taken Out of Context [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3113047 - 09/09/04 12:50 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

He was speaking candidly

I'm not sure how "candidly" any politician speaks in public interviews 2 months before an election.

wouldn't he be smart enough to realize that scare tactics backfire

Not if he thinks scare tactics are his best chance of regaining power.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineunbeliever
Yo Daddy!
 User Gallery
Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 5,158
Loc: Gallifrey
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Cheney's Statement, Taken Out of Context [Re: Xlea321]
    #3113193 - 09/09/04 01:39 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

No kidding, if the best "reaction" to a terrorist attack is to bomb, invade and occupy a foreign country that had nothing to do with the attack, killing tens of thousands of civilians and over a thousand of our own troops.. then we're fucked. Bush has failed as president.


--------------------
Happiness is a warm gun...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineLearyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 29,756
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 28 minutes, 9 seconds
Re: Cheney's Statement, Taken Out of Context [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3114388 - 09/09/04 05:28 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

If I was a terrorist, right now with Bush in office I'd be much less inclined to stage an attack on America than I would have been with Clinton, or would be with Kerry, in office.




Why is that? Bush would forget about you after 6 months and then go attack someone else.







--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: The Loose Enz - The Black Door



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Cheney's Statement, Taken Out of Context [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3114474 - 09/09/04 05:49 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Full Quote:

"We made decisions at the end of World War II, at the beginning of the Cold War, when we set up the Department of Defense, and the CIA, and we created the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and undertook a bunch of major policy steps that then were in place for the next 40 years, that were key to our ultimate success in the Cold War, that were supported by Democrat and Republican alike -- Harry Truman and Dwight Eisenhower and Jack Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon and Gerry Ford and a whole bunch of Presidents, from both parties, supported those policies over a long period of time. We're now at that point where we're making that kind of decision for the next 30 or 40 years, and it's absolutely essential that eight weeks from today, on November 2nd, we make the right choice. Because if we make the wrong choice, then the danger is that we'll get hit again, that we'll be hit in a way that will be devastating from the standpoint of the United States, and that we'll fall back into the pre-9/11 mind set if you will, that in fact these terrorist attacks are just criminal acts, and that we're not really at war. I think that would be a terrible mistake for us.

We have to understand it is a war. It's different than anything we've ever fought before. But they mean to do everything they can to destroy our way of life. They don't agree with our view of the world. They've got an extremist view in terms of their religion. They have no concept or tolerance for religious freedom. They don't believe women ought to have any rights. They've got a fundamentally different view of the world, and they will slaughter -- as they demonstrated on 9/11 -- anybody who stands in their way. So we've got to get it right. We've got to succeed here. We've got to prevail. And that's what is at stake in this election."

He is talking within the context of American policy. The issue he poses is one of how we respond to terrorism. The oft quoted passage may be a little vague, but in the context of him talking about US policies it is clear that his remarks are NOT claiming that Kerry would invite terrorist attacks from the get go.


I just did some research on the net and it seems that not a SINGLE news media outlet has gotten this one right. Not one. Many attempt to paraphrase saying "Cheney says vote for Kerry would create terrorist attacks" Not only are they getting it completely wrong, but they are distorting it further by simplifying and paraphrasing their incorrect interpretation just like a game of telephone.
Conservative media my ass.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Cheney's Statement, Taken Out of Context [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3114524 - 09/09/04 06:00 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

The Bush campaign in their own words:

Anne Womack, his campaign press secretary, said Tuesday that Cheney stood by his remark, but she attempted to clarify it. "What the vice president is saying is, 'Whoever is elected, we face the prospect of a terrible attack,' " she said.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&am...kasfearstrategy

These are some various headlines:

# Cheney: Wrong Vote Invites Attack
CBS News - Sep 08 4:00 PM

Cheney: "Wrong choice" at polls could lead to terror attack
Denver Post - Sep 08 8:52 AM

Cheney ties election result to chance of terror attack
USATODAY.com via Yahoo! News - Sep 08 3:41 AM

# Cheney warns terrorists may hit US if Kerry wins
AFP via Yahoo! News - Sep 08 12:39 AM

Cheney: Kerry win risks terror attack
CNN.com - Sep 07 9:54 PM

Kerry Calls Cheney Comment 'Shameful' Cheney: Voting For Kerry Would Hurt National Security
Local6.com Central Florida - Sep 09 11:10 AM

Some see Cheney's terror remark as 'fear strategy'
USATODAY.com via Yahoo! News - Sep 09 5:33 AM

Albright calls Cheney charge on terror "irresponsible"
AFP via Yahoo! News - Sep 08 7:23 AM

Cheney's Speech 'Disgraceful,' NY Times Says
Crosswalk.com - Sep 09 5:18 AM

# Gore says Cheney's remark is sleazy
WBAY 2 - Sep 09 11:09 AM

Cheney scare tactics irk Edwards
The Star Online - Sep 08 6:25 PM


Nowhere in any of these articles is even an inkling that Cheney may have meant something different.


Edited by Divided_Sky (09/09/04 06:27 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
Re: Cheney's Statement, Taken Out of Context [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3114718 - 09/09/04 06:45 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

what's the right or wrong choice he alludes to?

what is the danger he proposes will happen if
we make this wrong choice?

assuming that the answer to the first question is the
choice of presidential candidates, why does he feel
that choosing kerry will be the wrong choice?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Pentagon Blocks Testimony at Senate Hearing on Terrorist (Able Danger Hearing) lonestar2004 467 5 09/21/05 01:17 AM
by Anisotropic
* Reverend Wright in Context
( 1 2 3 all )
supernovasky 2,410 41 03/24/08 02:54 PM
by dill705
* More 'Terrorists' created in Pakistan
( 1 2 3 all )
Swami 4,050 56 01/23/06 07:04 PM
by zappaisgod
* Cheney: Terrorists May Bomb U.S. Cities ekomstop 873 16 10/22/04 11:23 AM
by AntiMeme
* A second military officer backs able danger claims. lonestar2004 590 10 08/23/05 09:56 PM
by zappaisgod
* Anti-Kerry Ad Misses Context, Distorts Facts fft2 397 2 07/01/04 12:21 PM
by afoaf
* Palestinians: US was warned of the dangers
( 1 2 all )
PsiloKitten 967 22 10/16/03 06:29 PM
by wingnutx
* Any other terrorist organizations out there? mabus 446 1 02/24/04 05:08 AM
by luvdemshrooms

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Prisoner#1, Enlil
1,231 topic views. 2 members, 1 guests and 5 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Mycohaus
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.094 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 16 queries.