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Invisibleretread
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My coffee experiment
    #3111205 - 09/09/04 01:21 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Twopart post, first, the results of an experiment I conducted, second, my thoughts and questions about where I'm going next.

My experiment was to see if mycelia grows quicker with a source rich in "coffee".  Their are so many variables to the "coffee experiment" that hippie3 referred to that I can't even imagine them all, nor can I say that this experiment excludes or isolates any variables and tests them, nor are their any controls.

I just decided that I'd mix in coffee grinds with my next casing layer and see what happened. I'm familiar with how long my casings, prepared the usual way, take to grow out, so I didn't really need a control. Also, this was more of a spur-of-the-moment thing.  Anyhow, I mixed coffee grinds with vermiculite at a 50/50 ratio. I always sterilize my casing layer by microwaving it, so I did that as well. I applied casing as regular. I'm not seeing any enhanced speed in growth through the casing layer, it's progressing about how it usually does. Not sure if this even means anything. too much coffee could mean too little moisture which could negate any possible effects. *shrug*

Now, my experiment to come...
I think that their are a few basic variables here that I can isolate, let me know if you think of any others.  this is assuming that mycelia DOES perform better in a substrate rich with coffee, I'm just isolating the reasons why that could be.

1) Caffeine - The actual caffeine acts as it does in humans. As it's absorbed, the metabolism of the absorbing entity speeds up. I'm not very sure that it's this one, as I don't think mycelia performs the way that organisms like humans do. Not a very likely candidate for the cause.

2) Nutrients - Coffee is listed as a substrate by Stamets, maybe it's higher nutrient count makes it more suitable as a subtrate. I don't think it's this option either. Compost/straw couldn't be a better substrate, why would mycelia burn through anything quicker than that? Having more available nutrients available might (!) affect the potency of the mushrooms, the size of the fruits, but I don't seriously think that it would make the mycelia grow FASTER.

3) pH  - A common misconception in growing plants (say,  oh, reefer) is that a pH too high or low will "burn" the roots.  In a way this can be true, but the main reason you want a certain pH is that the nutrients are only soluable and absorbable at certain pH's. Maybe the lower pH of coffee-soaked or coffee-enriched substrates make more nutrients available to the mycelia.  Not sure if this is the cause or not, maybe someone with more knowledge can assist here?

Thats about all I can think of, really. I'll start some experimentation soon now that my digital pH meter has arrived. Feel free to give me any suggestions you wish. Digitial Cameras are also being accepted as donations so I can write my work up with pictures :smile:


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: My coffee experiment [Re: retread]
    #3111225 - 09/09/04 01:24 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

From what I got out of that coffee thread, the coffee should be used in the substrate. Since the coffee is a source of nutrition it could potentially lead to contamination.

Have you ever used coffee in the substrate?


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OfflineNNY
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Re: My coffee experiment [Re: daimyo]
    #3111350 - 09/09/04 01:49 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

im using coffee in my latest batches of jars, both cubes and pan cyans. the cyans are growing painfully slow, never having grown them before i cant hazard a guess for normal grown rates. the cubes were growing pretty fast for a while in the last two or three days its leveled off. id like to try more controlled experimenting before deciding about those.

the coffee substrate was the 'Alien substrate' but instead of simmering with 2.5 cups water i used 1 cup coffee and the rest wtaer.

i know it doesnt add much to the thread... sorry, but its what ive got. im using the same cubes as i did my previous grow and those grew rather fast too, but cant really compare the two, thanks to less than professional record keeping.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: My coffee experiment [Re: retread]
    #3112436 - 09/09/04 07:43 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

All of these questions have been covered in the coffee thread.

Best not to use more than 10% coffee grinds in a casing layer.

The best use for coffee is as the liquid used to hydrate your grains. Mix it 50% of drinking strength and use this as the liquid. My results over the last two years show consistantly a 40 to 50 percent decrease in colonization times(of the grains), and a faster pinset once the grains have been spawned into bulk substrate. Coffee also is a big help if growing invitro.


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Offlineesin
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Re: My coffee experiment [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #3112464 - 09/09/04 08:12 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

And what's your 'drinking strength'?

Because where i live everyone drinks expresso coffee, which is very concentrated. We use 6-7g of finely ground coffee to 20-30ml water.

I fear it may be too strong to use 50:50 - espresso:water on jars.

What's the ratio of coffee to water on your average drinking coffee?

Thanks!


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: My coffee experiment [Re: esin]
    #3112468 - 09/09/04 08:22 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

There are instructions on the can... Follow them. That's how you get standard strength coffee.


-FF


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Offlineesin
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Re: My coffee experiment [Re: fastfred]
    #3112578 - 09/09/04 09:16 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

hmmm yeah, all instructions on portuguese comercial coffee are for making espresso, that's why i asked.

I'm not that lazy or dumb, man  :crazy:

I'm guessing i should use the same amount of coffee but let my machine put out 1 cup instead of the usual 20ml?

Can anyone take a look at their can and tell me what's the recipe for american style brews?


Edited by esin (09/09/04 09:17 AM)


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: My coffee experiment [Re: esin]
    #3112598 - 09/09/04 09:29 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Sorry esin... Didn't realize that other countries didn't have regular coffee. So does everyone have an espresso machine then?

Anyway... to actually help you out this time...

Folgers Classic Roast
---------------------
1 Serving (6 fl oz) = 1 Tablespoon

It also mentions that for even stronger coffee you can add 1 tablespoon extra for every 10 servings.


-FF


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Offlineesin
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Re: My coffee experiment [Re: fastfred]
    #3112647 - 09/09/04 09:53 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks, fastfred! :smile:
You've been of great help!

Not everyone here has an espresso machine, of course.
People who don't have one usually drink coffee in the cafeteria, we have lots of cafeterias everywhere.
Some people also use french presses or those 'Moka' thingies to brew at home, but make it a lot more concentrated than you US guys.

When i was in the USA i remember seeing everyone drink huge mugs (like 250ml) of weak coffee at cafeterias. Thus my question.

:sun:


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Invisibleretread
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Re: My coffee experiment [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #3125939 - 09/12/04 02:42 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
All of these questions have been covered in the coffee thread.




All of them have been answered with your assurance that what you say is right. At last I looked, I didn't see any control/variable experiments done, so the answered questions don't really matter that much unless I see the Big P (proof)
Quote:


Best not to use more than 10% coffee grinds in a casing layer.




The 50/50 is going OK, but I think it's just because I have such great asceptic procedure. I'll probably try a mix of 25% coffee grinds, 25% manure/compost and 50% straw as a substrate in the future and see if any result occurs.
Quote:


The best use for coffee is as the liquid used to hydrate your grains. Mix it 50% of drinking strength and use this as the liquid. My results over the last two years show consistantly a 40 to 50 percent decrease in colonization times(of the grains), and a faster pinset once the grains have been spawned into bulk substrate. Coffee also is a big help if growing invitro.



I don't see how using it for grian hydration can have such astonishing effects, but using it elsewhere wouldn't. If mycelia enjoys and thrives upon grain that has coffee in it, why wouldn't it do the same for straw that was pasteruized with coffee? Why wouldn't the casing layer with 50% coffee grinds colonize quicker as well?

The only tangible difference that I see between grains and substrate or casing is that the grains are pressure cooked. If soaking grains in coffee before pressure cooking makes for faster colonization, I'm wondering if the process of pressure cooking has something to do with it. Maybe the extreme heat/temperature that it's exposed to causesa change in the coffee, or makes the caffeine easier to absorb. I don't see how coffee in one part of the equation would have such startling results while coffee in other parts have no or negligible results.


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OfflineSpudz76
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Re: My coffee experiment [Re: retread]
    #3126012 - 09/12/04 03:14 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

retread said:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
All of these questions have been covered in the coffee thread.




All of them have been answered with your assurance that what you say is right. At last I looked, I didn't see any control/variable experiments done, so the answered questions don't really matter that much unless I see the Big P (proof)




Actually, if you read the main Coffee thread, you will see that all our info here about coffee and its use with 'active' mushroom species in particular came from work done by Roger personally documented over on another board, and also he has done many different things with it (perhaps not controlled but still of merit). I would consider most anything he says on the topic as the "Big P".

Also it has been repeated multiple times but seems to be overlooked, it is not likely that the caffeine component of the coffee is the active thing in the way it helps. It is more likely that it is some other nutrient present in the grounds and brewed liquid. But apparently the connection between the effect caffeine has on mammals (increased energy) and the assumption that the same holds for mushrooms when they are given caffeine is where this probable misconception stems from, while in all likelyhood the mushrooms don't get 'tweaked up' by caffeine at all. Some were attempting tests (again, uncontrolled, at least in a true scientific sense) with pure caffeine to prove/disprove this for certain but I haven't heard any results from those people.


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Offlinekilgore_trout
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Re: My coffee experiment [Re: Spudz76]
    #3126048 - 09/12/04 03:35 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

yeah, i havet seen any well done experiments so nothing can be conclusive. people have said that caf boosts sclerotia formation as well, but i dont know if pure caf was used or if it was coffee. grounds or steeped liquid will have other nutes and chems and would logically lead to more sclerotia biomass maybe in a shorter period of time. the grounds are obviosly something extra and the coffee is like the "corn steep liquor" tek ecxept that it will contain caf. again, nothing is conclusive bc i have never seen anyone use pure caf, isolated strains, et cetera in a good scientific fashion. fuck, maybe ill do it, who knows. i do have some mex a cultures on hand that i think are an isolated strain but ill have to ask about that. if not ill just isolate a strain. Itd prob take a months to do a experiment right, and a shit ton of jars. ill let everyone know if i decide to do it.


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Invisibleretread
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Re: My coffee experiment [Re: Spudz76]
    #3126140 - 09/12/04 04:15 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Spudz76 said:
Actually, if you read the main Coffee thread, you will see that all our info here about coffee and its use with 'active' mushroom species in particular came from work done by Roger personally documented over on another board, and also he has done many different things with it (perhaps not controlled but still of merit). I would consider most anything he says on the topic as the "Big P".




I need pictoral evidence of this. How do I know that RR didn't invest in columbian coffee lands and wants to sell more coffee?
Quote:


Also it has been repeated multiple times but seems to be overlooked, it is not likely that the caffeine component of the coffee is the active thing in the way it helps. It is more likely that it is some other nutrient present in the grounds and brewed liquid. But apparently the connection between the effect caffeine has on mammals (increased energy) and the assumption that the same holds for mushrooms when they are given caffeine is where this probable misconception stems from, while in all likelyhood the mushrooms don't get 'tweaked up' by caffeine at all. Some were attempting tests (again, uncontrolled, at least in a true scientific sense) with pure caffeine to prove/disprove this for certain but I haven't heard any results from those people.



Explain why coffee would help out grains that were soaked, but nothing else?


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OfflineSpudz76
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Re: My coffee experiment [Re: retread]
    #3126331 - 09/12/04 05:34 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The Mycotopia Coffee section

There's the stuff. Read hearty.


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Offlineabsolute zero
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Re: My coffee experiment [Re: retread]
    #3127160 - 09/12/04 10:37 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

retread said:
the "coffee experiment" that hippie3 referred to that I can't even imagine them all, nor can I say that this experiment excludes or isolates any variables and tests them,  nor are their any controls .



Quote:

retread said:
All of them have been answered with your assurance that what you say is right. At last I looked,  I didn't see any control/variable experiments done, so the answered questions don't really matter




But what is this that you're contributing now?  :blush:

Quote:

retread said:
I just decided that I'd mix in coffee grinds with my next casing layer and see what happened. I'm familiar with how long my casings, prepared the usual way, take to grow out, so I didn't really need a control. Also, this was more of a spur-of-the-moment thing.




An experiment in the exact same manner as the ones you criticize so much... this is ridiculous... its fine to question other people's techniques and results... but its absolutely ridiculous to publicly denounce them in favor of your own experiment which has the same characteristics as the ones you're crusading against...

If you're not happy with the work people have put into this because its not a proper scientific experiment, then do a real experiment, but don't half-ass it while degrading the others...


--------------------


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: My coffee experiment [Re: absolute zero]
    #3141419 - 09/16/04 12:10 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

As was said repeatedly in the thread, and has been shown by nearly all who have used coffee, colonization times with grains are substantially reduced. The reason for NOT using coffee with straw is that the coffee would help all the natural contaminants that are in the straw to grow. Remember, we don't sterilize straw, and usually at least some of it is directly exposed to the air while it is being colonized. There have been several who have tried to use coffee this way and all reported contamination before fruits form. Ditto for using large amounts of coffee in a casing layer. Ditto for misting or dunking in coffee. You don't want coffee to be in proximity to the free air in your grow room. The air is heavily laden with contaminant spores, and the coffee will help them to grow. When using coffee to hydrate your grains, they are then sterilized and the mycelium is grown out in sterile conditions. I hope this clears it up.


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