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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Bowling for Columbine
    #3110947 - 09/09/04 12:46 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I realize that this documentary has probably been talked about to
death in several threads in this forum, but I just watched it and
thought that I would comment on it.

Micheal Moore does bring up an interesting question: Why does America
have such a high gun-homicide rate in comparison to other countries?
Canada has extensive gun ownership, but they have a much lower amount
of gun murders per capita. This question about why America is so
violent is one that I would like to know the answer to.

He insinuates that it is because America does not take good enough
care of its poor(I disagree, America spends hundreds of billions of
dollars on giving poor people free stuff(public subsidized housing,
free medical care, food stamps, etc...)).

Also, he says that Americans are so imbued with fear that it causes
them to be irrational. Well, living in a country with such a high
rate of violent crime SHOULD make someone wary. Fear may be
the reason for extensive gun ownership, but if you individually
investigate the gun murders, I have a feeling that fear will have
nothing to do with why they happened. The reasons will probably
be theft, drug related, and "passion" related.

He tries to make it seem as if black people are stereotyped and
misrepresented in the media...which breeds distrust and fear between
the races. Yet he doesn't acknowledge the simple facts that black
males are 7(I think that is the correct rate) times more likely to
commit murders than white males. Also, I have seen statistics that
state that one out of every four black males will be incarcerated at
one point in their lives. Excessive crime in the black community
is real. It is not a stereotype.

I thought that his vicious assault on Charleton Heston was uncalled
for. He seemed to insinuate that Charleton Heston should feel
guilty that a little girl was killed by a little boy who brought a
gun to school. Charleton Heston had nothing to do with that tragic
situation.

When he orchestrated the propaganda like PR stunt at KMart's
headquarters, I was disgusted. Kmart bears no responsibility
that two psychos used Kmart bullets to kill and maim people.
That would be like blaming car manufacturers for making a car
that happened to be involved in an accident where someone died.
The people who actually committed the crime(in this case Harris and
Klebold) should be the ones criticized.

I don't agree with most of his assertions and I definately don't
agree with his overall ideological stance. In my opinion, the only
thing of worth that the movie brought up was the legitimate question
as to why America is so violent.


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Offlinethieverycorp
Stranger

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 181
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3110998 - 09/09/04 12:54 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I think that the US has so many gun and for that matter violent crimes because we live by a machismo mentality. I see it in my friends and people all around me, but maybe that's just living in Texas...
There is an obligation for young men to fight in the US, if you don't fight then you are looked upon as a pussy, and while alot of these machismo people speak of fairness, they fight dirty, and drawn out far enough, this leads to gun violence or some other kind of fatal violence... also, I'm not a gun control activist, but I do realize that there is nothing wrong with lisencing people to own guns... there are alot of idiots out there that shouldn't own guns... And while I own a few guns, I do not mind waiting for a background check before I can purchase one, it's only common sense, but you are right, Moore is very caustic in his approach and doesn't put the blame on who deserves it, the actual people who actually used the gun...


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InvisibleCRAZYFUKR
STRANGER THANSTRANGE

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 169
Loc: SOUTHLAND
Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: thieverycorp]
    #3111185 - 09/09/04 01:17 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

"lisencing people to own guns"

that not going to keep criminals from getting guns. all that would do is hinder law abiding citizens further. plus how often would we have to "pay the man" to keep said license. and how much?how many hoops would i have to jump throughto get it. it would create yet another bullshit beurocracy where i'd have to go and stand in fucking line like the dmv. bad idea.

"I do not mind waiting for a background check before I can purchase one"

i agree with you on the background check but i do mind the wait. in my state you can go into a store pick out a gun and walk out with it all in 10 minutes, unless you grew up with my friend pat who decided one day that counterfeiting was the way to go. he wound up getting popped by the secret service. and because i called his house on the day of the bust, and they answered, i get delayed every fucking time. you may not think thats so bad but when your waing on your birthday AK it kind of sucks ass.
you would think after 10 or so guns they would figure out that they just gave me the ok a month ago, but they never do. in closing i would like to say that this system is bad enough why create yet another beurocracy to fuck me further.
i just want the government to leave me alone. thats all.


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Offlinethieverycorp
Stranger

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 181
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: CRAZYFUKR]
    #3111228 - 09/09/04 01:25 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

CRAZYFUKR said:
that not going to keep criminals from getting guns.




I didn't say criminals, i said idiots, people who leave their guns unsecure with children around...people should atleast have to go through classes instructing them how to safely use and store guns... I know that criminals are going to get guns, I'm not that stupid...

As for the background check, that could be improved yes to take no longer than mere minutes


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3111233 - 09/09/04 01:26 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry to open a can of worms and then head off to sleep, but one of your points is unfortunately right on the money. Note that what I am about to say is in no way shape or form racist, but a simple statement of fact.

Several analysts have pointed out that if one were to extract the black crime statistics from the mix, change them to exactly mirror the non-black crime statistics, then run the numbers through again, the US crime figures would be no higher than that of the other industrialized Western countries and lower than several.

So the question is not why are Americans so violent, but why are black Americans so violent. There are many theories from many sources which try to answer this. The US's prohibition of drugs, the disintegration of the black family, the contempt urban black youth hold for eduction, the black teen birth rate, misguided welfare policies, the culture of "victimhood", the idolization of gangsta and thug mentalities -- all of these are probable factors.

pinky


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Offlinethieverycorp
Stranger

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 181
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Phred]
    #3111259 - 09/09/04 01:31 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

this country ignores a lot of problems because confronting them might be "politically incorrect"
better i guess to ignore black crime and not be labled a racist than to confront it and be labled a racist... :confused:


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3111277 - 09/09/04 01:35 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Also, he says that Americans are so imbued with fear that it causes
them to be irrational. Well, living in a country with such a high
rate of violent crime SHOULD make someone wary. Fear may be
the reason for extensive gun ownership, but if you individually
investigate the gun murders, I have a feeling that fear will have
nothing to do with why they happened. The reasons will probably
be theft, drug related, and "passion" related.




Well sorta. I think that Moore is right on the money, so to speak, when he accuses the media of pumping fear into the public. Let's face it. It's been proven time and time again to be good for ratings and the economy. If it bleeds, it leads blah blah and so forth.
So people are afraid. They go out. They buy guns.
As you mentioned, things happen: theft, drugs, passion. These things happen all over the world.
Why do more people get SHOT in America? Because they've been encouraged to buy guns for the purpose of "self defense."
So fear may have had nothing to do with the motivation behind the violence, but it may have added a firearm to the equation.


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InvisibleCRAZYFUKR
STRANGER THANSTRANGE

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 169
Loc: SOUTHLAND
Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: thieverycorp]
    #3111345 - 09/09/04 01:49 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I didn't say criminals, i said idiots, people who leave their guns unsecure with children around...people should atleast have to go through classes instructing them how to safely use and store guns... I know that criminals are going to get guns, I'm not that stupid.

i hear you on that and i know your not stupid. i forgot to say in my previous post that idiots would be covered by the background check but then you went and explained what type of idiot you meant. but i dont understand how licensing would help.

and leaving guns unsecure with children around does not make one an idiot providing the child or children is educated in gun safety. where i live sometimes you have to keep at least one ready to rock just in case. we got shit that'll eat you out here. it's best not to have to wasted time loading or removing trigger locks.
my kids shoot with me in the yard and they all have their own guns. they dont go near a gun unless i am with them. i instruct them almost to the point of annoyance, but they get it.
granted most people wouldnt take the time to actually educate their children, but some care enough to. but even these people of which you speak could pass a licensing test. i mean i took a driving test once but i dont come to a complete stop at stop signs, i speed sometimes, i have run red lights, all the things they tell you not to do to in the test, but i still have the license.


BLUNT BREAK!!!!!


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OfflineDigitalDuality
enthusiast

Registered: 04/29/04
Posts: 354
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: thieverycorp]
    #3111485 - 09/09/04 02:09 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

The problem you'd have.. is blacks would cry racism, liberal sympathizer would back them, real racists would join in b/c they believe it's racism and support it..

It would become a shit storm. The problem i feel really is culture identity.. coupled with poverty, and media influence. War on drugs is a good point too.


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #3111511 - 09/09/04 02:13 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Evryone just start fucking interracially. The sooner we all become the same color, the better.


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OfflineSkikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3111737 - 09/09/04 03:02 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

It's been a long time since I have seen the movie but.....
Quote:

I thought that his vicious assault on Charleton Heston was uncalled
for. He seemed to insinuate that Charleton Heston should feel
guilty that a little girl was killed by a little boy who brought a
gun to school. Charleton Heston had nothing to do with that tragic
situation.



While I agree that Moore is shameless in his propensity to resort to emotions to get his point across (see: uneccesarily emotional music in his "documentaries") I don't think he was suggesting Heston should feel guilty about the murders so much as he should feel guilty about holding a NRA convention IN Denver, immediately following the Columbine tragedy. Now, I may be totaly wrong, and if I am, please, someone point it out, but that's what I remember from the movie.

Quote:

Also, he says that Americans are so imbued with fear that it causes
them to be irrational. Well, living in a country with such a high
rate of violent crime SHOULD make someone wary.


Seems like most of the other major problems we face today, cyclical in nature.

Quote:

In my opinion, the only
thing of worth that the movie brought up was the legitimate question
as to why America is so violent.


Power yeilds to fear of loosing that power.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 16,233
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 10 days, 2 hours
Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Gijith]
    #3111782 - 09/09/04 03:10 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I think that Moore is right on the money, so to speak, when he accuses the media of pumping fear into the public.


Bingo..fear is a huge industry. As long as Americans (or any number of countries for that matter) are afraid of 'something', the easier it is to keep the mindless masses forking out money and taxes. They will always need a 'boogeyman' of some sort...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Registered: 09/26/03
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Rono]
    #3112011 - 09/09/04 03:54 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

The problem isn't exactly idiots with guns.


It's idiots who don't know how to raise their children in the first place.

The problem is people who are too afraid of guns themselves to teach their children anything about them -- fear caused by some insane belief that it's guns that are the root of our problems, and why would any good person expose their children to such a thing at such a young age!


When I was 6, I got a small .22 rifle for christmas.
I'm coming up on 23, and I own (excluding that first rifle) 7 or 8 guns. I lose track.. there are some that are mine, some are my dad's, some are my dad's but will be mine (heirlooms).

I certainly haven't killed anyone. Hell, I was at least as much, if not more, of an outcast in school than any of those idiots who grabbed a gun and went apeshit. Why didn't I? My parents actually taught me right from wrong.

And good thing, too.. I know of many people, adults, who worked with my parents, who made comments to other people about those school shootings. Essentially mocking how absolutely pathetic the killers were, first of all for bringing a gun to school and shooting people, and secondly for being so damned piss-poor about it.

"They should just be glad it wasn't Bob in there, no one would've made it out!"

That's really odd to hear by the way.. true though. Those kids were AWFUL!



that said I refuse to watch Bowling for Columbine simply because I HAVE already seen the part with Charlton Heston. Seen him in public much recently? His mind is slipping away. That's why you haven't.
I felt that entire conversation Michael Moore had with Charlton Heston was just completely disrespectful, manipulative, and exploitive. And, more than that, completely asinine.


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3112028 - 09/09/04 03:57 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

that said I refuse to watch Bowling for Columbine simply because I HAVE already seen the part with Charlton Heston. Seen him in public much recently? His mind is slipping away. That's why you haven't.
I felt that entire conversation Michael Moore had with Charlton Heston was just completely disrespectful, manipulative, and exploitive. And, more than that, completely asinine.


Is Heston still the President of the NRA? I really don't know, seeing I'm not a member


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3112445 - 09/09/04 07:56 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

He insinuates that it is because America does not take good enough
care of its poor(I disagree, America spends hundreds of billions of
dollars on giving poor people free stuff(public subsidized housing,
free medical care, food stamps, etc...)).




This is something I have spent a lot of time thinking about. Nowhere in the US constitution does the government have the right to take money from the rich and give it to the poor. I think that the poor should be helped, but not directly by the Government. Churches, communities, and local businesses should help the homeless and the poor because it is the right thing to do. The government should give tax breaks to churches (yes, they should pay taxes), people, and businesses that do participate in programs to help the poor and homeless.

The problem with the current system is that the government rewards people for being lazy. I sit around and have a bunch of kids, then I get more money than if I actually find a job and actually work. The government likes lazy people... they don't educate themselves, they don't think for themselves, they just sit in front of the TV watching soaps, or FOX news, or the Jerry Springer Show, or a Michael Moore drama (er, documentary), so that they know how to talk, act, and think.

Obviously the government is not doing anything to help the poor improve their situation. Foodstamps and low income housing do nothing to help educate people, restore pride and dignity, or help and encourage somebody find a job.

Quote:

Also, he says that Americans are so imbued with fear that it causes
them to be irrational. Well, living in a country with such a high
rate of violent crime SHOULD make someone wary. Fear may be
the reason for extensive gun ownership, but if you individually
investigate the gun murders, I have a feeling that fear will have
nothing to do with why they happened. The reasons will probably
be theft, drug related, and "passion" related.




I have lived in several different countries, including America. I have never felt fear living in any country. I have owned a gun, and it did nothing to make me feel safer. I do not believe that fear has much, if any, motivation for gun ownership, or irrational use of guns. Fear is too easy of a scapegoat for the problem as seen by a shallow mind with an anti-gun agenda.

I personally believe that the large gun related death rate would drop significantly if all drugs were completely legal. Almost all gun violence can be directly related back to the war on drugs. If drugs are cheap, then people aren't stealing things to get money to buy black market drugs. Sane taxes on drugs can be spent on education and rehabilitation. The legal system is all the sudden released from a huge burden. We now have time to catch the murderers and rapists because we aren't spending so much time trying to stop drug users.

Quote:

He tries to make it seem as if black people are stereotyped and
misrepresented in the media...which breeds distrust and fear between
the races. Yet he doesn't acknowledge the simple facts that black
males are 7(I think that is the correct rate) times more likely to
commit murders than white males. Also, I have seen statistics that
state that one out of every four black males will be incarcerated at
one point in their lives. Excessive crime in the black community
is real. It is not a stereotype.




If it is a reality and not a stereotype, then the government, not the black people, have made it such. I honestly dislike the 'black stereotype' crap... if you want to apply a stereotype, then apply it to ghettos rather than race. The sad fact is that ghettos are mostly black, hence the ease of making such a rash generalization. I am guessing that if you reran the numbers, ignoring race, and using only income as a modifier, that the results would be nearly identical. The problem has nothing to do with the color of a persons skin and everything to do with money. Just curious, what are the murder rates commited by rich black men compared to rich white men. I am guessing about the same.

I currently live in a population that is over 90% black. Usually, I am the only white guy in sight, when standing in line for example. The black culture is different than the white culture that I grew up with. At first I thought black people were rude and obnoxious, but I soon realized that this was my misconception. They were simply living by different rules than I was raised with... and their rules are no better or worse than mine, just different. What I was seeing as rudeness, they were doing out of kindness. We have a very high crime rate here, but we also have a very large poverty rate and poor education as well. It is too simple to blame problems on the color of somebodies skin.


--------------------
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OfflineGazzBut
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Registered: 10/15/02
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Phred]
    #3112477 - 09/09/04 08:35 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

It would be interesting to break down the murder rates of blacks into those who are affluent and those who are living in poverty and then do the same for the murder rates of white people. I think that would be more telling than a simplistic colour comparisson.


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Always Smi2le


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InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: thieverycorp]
    #3112602 - 09/09/04 09:30 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

people should atleast have to go through classes instructing them how to safely use and store guns

That's a requirement before purchasing or owning any gun, here. You also need to have a gun licence to buy guns or own them (or even just buy ammo, now).


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: CRAZYFUKR]
    #3112873 - 09/09/04 11:57 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I didn't say criminals, i said idiots, people who leave their guns unsecure with children around...people should atleast have to go through classes instructing them how to safely use and store guns... I know that criminals are going to get guns, I'm not that stupid.

No, SOME criminals are going to get guns. You do not wake up one morning and suddenly know where to buy a gun that won't blow up in your hand the first time you fire it. That's why guns are so rare in the UK even among "criminals".

BTW your grammar style is awfully like retreads/germs/TOYK  :smirk:


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Skikid16]
    #3112880 - 09/09/04 12:00 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Is Heston still the President of the NRA? I really don't know

I don't think Chuck really knows either.


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InvisibleCRAZYFUKR
STRANGER THANSTRANGE

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 169
Loc: SOUTHLAND
Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Xlea321]
    #3112932 - 09/09/04 12:16 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

first of all if you did your homework and read then you would know that i did not write that. it was a quote from thievery. god your stupid.

"No, SOME criminals are going to get guns. You do not wake up one morning and suddenly know where to buy a gun that won't blow up in your hand the first time you fire it. That's why guns are so rare in the UK even among "criminals".

maybe where you live but here we have newspaper classified ads.
also a smart person would dis-assemble any used gun purchased before ever firing to insure all parts were present and functioning, check breech plate,clean, then assemble according to manufacturers specs. then dry fire with dummy round, then fire.

"BTW your grammar style is awfully like retreads/germs/TOYK "

why is it that you assholes alway play the "puppet card" when you have no real argument? i will say it again. THIS IS MY ONLY SCREEN NAME! now fuck off


--------------------
If it wasn't for this damned insomnia, Id have more pot when i woke up. :mad:


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