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OfflineFrog
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Re: What price for anal intercourse? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3131948 - 09/13/04 09:35 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Okay, if you guys want me to change it, I will.  Sigh. 

:grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: What price for anal intercourse? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3131957 - 09/13/04 09:37 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I have to add this.

Just because a blade of gras or a tree doesn't have eyes, ears a nose, mouth and touch nerves or a brain organ, doesn't neccesarily mean that the force which gives it life to grow, reproduce and evolve is infused with a consciousness any less vast then ours.

I'm curious, how does the DNA of a plant compare to that of a human.

Anyone know?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: What price for anal intercourse? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3132051 - 09/13/04 09:55 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Plant DNA is much more complex I believe. I am not the final word on this. I do know that the lower the life form in complexity the more chromosomes it has.

I think my statements on this may have been understood out of context. I was not trying to say that human life was worthless...merely that we are not the God appointed masters of life on Earth. Life thrived here for millions of years before we evolved. Mankind is a recent addition to the ecosystem. We are remarkable, but only for the superior intelligence we have. Consider the words of Cheif Seattle:

"How can you buy or sell the sky, the warmth of the land? The idea is strange to us.

If we do not own the freshness of the air and the sparkle of the water, how can you buy them?

Every part of this earth is sacred to my people. Every shining pine needle, every sandy shore, every mist in the dark woods, every clearing and humming insect is holy in the memory and experience of my people. The sap which courses through the trees carries the memories of the red man.

The white man's dead forget the country of their birth when they go to walk among the stars. Our dead never forget this beautiful earth, for it is the mother of the red man. We are part of the earth and it is part of us. The perfumed flowers are our sisters; the deer, the horse, the great eagle, these are our brothers. The rocky crests, the juices in the meadows, the body heat of the pony, and man --- all belong to the same family.

So, when the Great Chief in Washington sends word that he wishes to buy our land, he asks much of us. The Great Chief sends word he will reserve us a place so that we can live comfortably to ourselves. He will be our father and we will be his children.

So, we will consider your offer to buy our land. But it will not be easy. For this land is sacred to us. This shining water that moves in the streams and rivers is not just water but the blood of our ancestors. If we sell you the land, you must remember that it is sacred, and you must teach your children that it is sacred and that each ghostly reflection in the clear water of the lakes tells of events and memories in the life of my people. The water's murmur is the voice of my father's father.

The rivers are our brothers, they quench our thirst. The rivers carry our canoes, and feed our children. If we sell you our land, you must remember, and teach your children, that the rivers are our brothers and yours, and you must henceforth give the rivers the kindness you would give any brother.

We know that the white man does not understand our ways. One portion of land is the same to him as the next, for he is a stranger who comes in the night and takes from the land whatever he needs. The earth is not his brother, but his enemy, and when he has conquered it, he moves on. He leaves his father's grave behind, and he does not care. He kidnaps the earth from his children, and he does not care. His father's grave, and his children's birthright are forgotten. He treats his mother, the earth, and his brother, the sky, as things to be bought, plundered, sold like sheep or bright beads. His appetite will devour the earth and leave behind only a desert.

I do not know. Our ways are different than your ways. The sight of your cities pains the eyes of the red man. There is no quiet place in the white man's cities. No place to hear the unfurling of leaves in spring or the rustle of the insect's wings. The clatter only seems to insult the ears. And what is there to life if a man cannot hear the lonely cry of the whippoorwill or the arguments of the frogs around the pond at night? I am a red man and do not understand. The Indian prefers the soft sound of the wind darting over the face of a pond and the smell of the wind itself, cleaned by a midday rain, or scented with pinon pine.

The air is precious to the red man for all things share the same breath, the beast, the tree, the man, they all share the same breath. The white man does not seem to notice the air he breathes. Like a man dying for many days he is numb to the stench. But if we sell you our land, you must remember that the air is precious to us, that the air shares its spirit with all the life it supports.

The wind that gave our grandfather his first breath also receives his last sigh. And if we sell you our land, you must keep it apart and sacred as a place where even the white man can go to taste the wind that is sweetened by the meadow's flowers.

So we will consider your offer to buy our land. If we decide to accept, I will make one condition - the white man must treat the beasts of this land as his brothers.

I am a savage and do not understand any other way. I have seen a thousand rotting buffaloes on the prairie, left by the white man who shot them from a passing train. I am a savage and do not understand how the smoking iron horse can be made more important than the buffalo that we kill only to stay alive.

What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts were gone, man would die from a great loneliness of the spirit. For whatever happens to the beasts, soon happens to man. All things are connected.

You must teach your children that the ground beneath their feet is the ashes of our grandfathers. So that they will respect the land, tell your children that the earth is rich with the lives of our kin. Teach your children that we have taught our children that the earth is our mother. Whatever befalls the earth befalls the sons of earth. If men spit upon the ground, they spit upon themselves.

This we know; the earth does not belong to man; man belongs to the earth. This we know. All things are connected like the blood which unites one family. All things are connected.

Even the white man, whose God walks and talks with him as friend to friend, cannot be exempt from the common destiny. We may be brothers after all. We shall see. One thing we know which the white man may one day discover; our God is the same God.

You may think now that you own Him as you wish to own our land; but you cannot. He is the God of man, and His compassion is equal for the red man and the white. The earth is precious to Him, and to harm the earth is to heap contempt on its creator. The whites too shall pass; perhaps sooner than all other tribes. Contaminate your bed and you will one night suffocate in your own waste.

But in your perishing you will shine brightly fired by the strength of the God who brought you to this land and for some special purpose gave you dominion over this land and over the red man.

That destiny is a mystery to us, for we do not understand when the buffalo are all slaughtered, the wild horses are tamed, the secret corners of the forest heavy with the scent of many men and the view of the ripe hills blotted by talking wires.

Where is the thicket? Gone. Where is the eagle? Gone.

The end of living and the beginning of survival."

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: What price for anal intercourse? [Re: Frog]
    #3132062 - 09/13/04 09:59 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

You smart ass frog! I love it!  :lol:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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frog is a smart ass [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3132071 - 09/13/04 10:01 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I was never in disagreeance with you hue on this one. I understood where you were coming from which is why I added what I did.

Thanks for the plant DNA bit.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: frog is a smart ass [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3132246 - 09/13/04 10:35 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I know. I was just remarking on the response I recieved to the very brief statement I made earlier concerning this subject. At the time I was speaking loosely when I made the remark and I fear my intentions may have been misunderstood as an abiding dislike of more organized religions, when, in truth, I believe to each his (or her) own...even concerning anal sex (yuck) as well as religion.

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OfflineFrog
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Re: frog is a smart ass [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3132612 - 09/13/04 11:37 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I'm a Christian, and I don't really have a problem with organized religions except for the types of people that are drawn to them.  :grin:  I ain't one of those types of people. 

What I like about going to church (I don't go very often any more) is that it sort of gets me grounded.  Sometimes, I get kind of lost in the sea of iniquity, during the week, month, year, life.

So if I go to church, just listening to the pastor talk can help me get back into focus.

However, the types of peoples drawn to church are usually the type that judge others.  I have Christians in my family that are no fun to hang around.  One of my sisters wouldn't let her son see any of the Harry Potter movies, or read the books, because they are based on witchcraft and that is against God, therefore from the devil, and therefore taboo.  I guess I'm a sinner.  :grin:

I have patience now for these types of people.  I didn't use to.  I use to feel bad about myself, that I "was" such a sinner.  But now I realize that many Christians (or insert religion of choice) are just human, and sometimes ignorant, or not very advanced in their thinking.  But they are trying to do the right thing, even if it's the wrong thing.

And I think of the way a lot of you have had patience with me on this forum.  There have been several subjects discussed here where I had to change my mind.  And even though some people have not had patience, I would say it's been a relatively good experience, the way some people here have challenged my thinking in a positive way, without making me feel stupid.  This thread is an example.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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OfflineFrog
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Re: What price for anal intercourse? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3132869 - 09/14/04 12:36 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Quote:

Frog said:
Luke 12:24 - "Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds!"




Funny, I took that to mean something completely different. I take it to mean that if God provides for the unproductive, why would it not provide for even you? I took it to say, don't put yourself below the raven.





I imagine that there are unproductive human beings for whom God provides.  :grin:

When I have gone to bible studies and church, that passage is typically interpreted as meaning that animals don't worry about tomorrow.  They don't store stuff, in case of tomorrrow.  And that animals are lesser than humans.  And if animals are lesser than humans, and animals don't have to worry about tomorrow, then why should humans worry about tomorrow, when God loves them more than animals? 

I agree that animals probably have souls, but I still think that God holds human beings in higher esteem than He does animals.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What price for anal intercourse? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3133295 - 09/14/04 05:49 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I'll tell you what IS there - paranoia, feelings of persecution on YOUR part. If you are experiencing a self-esteem problem, don't project it onto me! I do not call people stupid, neither do I play subtle mind-games and insinuate that others are stupid. I work with adolescents full time, and they really ARE young and stupid but I'd never damage them by saying so. You are further projecting some profound arrogance onto me and I can tell you that I do not walk with a swagger. Look at your own stuff more closely - you know, more Biblical Wisdom: 'Remove the beam from your own eye before you point out the [dust] mote in another's eye.' Projection, Biblical style.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: frog is a smart ass [Re: Frog]
    #3134635 - 09/14/04 02:04 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I never meant to imply that you were a judgemental person. I do have some misgivings about your fascination with anal sex between men, but that is purely your business. Seriously, now, I don't know you or much about you and I never got the feeling that you or Markostheagnostic were anything but fine people, but if I sometimes disagree with you it is because I like to debate and debate is an important part of discussion. It is true that I live in red-neck, fundamentalist, Christian utopia here in Kentucky so I have a tendancy to dislike that extreme judgemental mindset that many rural Christians have. As I did say, though, I do have many Christian friends who do not have such an attitude. As I said before I feel all religions have their place in life and that there is no single right answer for everyone.

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OfflineBlueOrb
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Re: frog is a smart ass [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3134667 - 09/14/04 02:13 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Religion....What a contridiction Ha.....

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: What price for anal intercourse? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3134677 - 09/14/04 02:15 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Many people who consider themselves intellectuals often have a tendancy to be dismissive of others with whom they do not agree. This is often done without concious thought. I do this myself purely by accident, and sometimes because I am just a mean spirited son of a bitch. This is a slight failing of many intellectuals. Of course, in your job I am sure you are quite careful to avoid alienating your clients...as am I (I am a computer support guy who often (though wrongly) feels that I am dealing with idiots), but at work I am careful...in real life I often slip. I never said you were persecuting me. IF you COULD persecute me (or even anger me) through words written on a web page I would be a very weak individual indeed. I merely meant to state that you were dismissive in a slightly belittling way. In reality that really doesn't bother me not in the least, but in a debate it strikes against one's credibility. Calling your opponents credibility into question is a standard (and valid) debate tool. If you think I seem schizophrenic, as another poster pointed out earlier on this thread, my namesake is to blame.

Edited by Huehuecoyotl (09/14/04 04:04 PM)

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: What price for anal intercourse? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3134684 - 09/14/04 02:17 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Anyway, I got a rise out of you....

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What price for anal intercourse? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3135127 - 09/14/04 03:58 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I do not think that you are schizophrenic.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: frog is a smart ass [Re: Frog]
    #3135151 - 09/14/04 04:06 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:

I have patience now for these types of people.  I didn't use to.  I use to feel bad about myself, that I "was" such a sinner.  But now I realize that many Christians (or insert religion of choice) are just human, and sometimes ignorant, or not very advanced in their thinking.  But they are trying to do the right thing, even if it's the wrong thing.




That's precisely how I feel about my parents now.  I'm still recovering from years of invalidation and abuse but I can see now that they *thought* they were doing the right thing.  They love me and I know that.  At the time, they just couldn't see how they were hurting me.  I've forgiven them, but that doesn't mean that I don't get really pissed off occasionally when I think about what I went through. 

anyway, sorry that was sorta off topic.  Carry on.  :sun:

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: What price for anal intercourse? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3135247 - 09/14/04 04:26 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I was certain that you would indeed feel the energy of jest behind the rhetoric schizo-poke... There seems to be a whole lot of miscommunication, misinterpretation and misunderstanding going on in this thread.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: What price for anal intercourse? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3135267 - 09/14/04 04:30 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I know why you said it, and you are correct. Did I dispute you?

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OfflineFrog
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Re: frog is a smart ass [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3136809 - 09/14/04 10:18 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I never meant to imply that you were a judgemental person. I do have some misgivings about your fascination with anal sex between men, but that is purely your business. Seriously, now, I don't know you or much about you and I never got the feeling that you or Markostheagnostic were anything but fine people, but if I sometimes disagree with you it is because I like to debate and debate is an important part of discussion. It is true that I live in red-neck, fundamentalist, Christian utopia here in Kentucky so I have a tendancy to dislike that extreme judgemental mindset that many rural Christians have. As I did say, though, I do have many Christian friends who do not have such an attitude. As I said before I feel all religions have their place in life and that there is no single right answer for everyone.




Whoa. I wasn't inferring that you thought I am a judgmental person. I was just sharing my own beliefs about judgmental Christians.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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OfflineFrog
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Re: frog is a smart ass [Re: MOTH]
    #3136861 - 09/14/04 10:29 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

EllemyshShade said:
Quote:

Frog said:

I have patience now for these types of people.  I didn't use to.  I use to feel bad about myself, that I "was" such a sinner.  But now I realize that many Christians (or insert religion of choice) are just human, and sometimes ignorant, or not very advanced in their thinking.  But they are trying to do the right thing, even if it's the wrong thing.




That's precisely how I feel about my parents now.  I'm still recovering from years of invalidation and abuse but I can see now that they *thought* they were doing the right thing.  They love me and I know that.  At the time, they just couldn't see how they were hurting me.  I've forgiven them, but that doesn't mean that I don't get really pissed off occasionally when I think about what I went through. 

anyway, sorry that was sorta off topic.  Carry on.  :sun:




Wasn't off topic at all, considering the many different directions this thread has taken.  :grin:

I don't think I went through what you went through, but I had to de-tox, nonetheless.  It's taken years.  I'm still not totally cleansed of my Catholic upbringing.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: What price for anal intercourse? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3137187 - 09/14/04 11:59 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I know why you said it, and you are correct. Did I dispute you?

Ah, so you ARE schizophrenic?

:wink:



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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