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OfflinekronnyQ
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Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes
    #3108141 - 09/08/04 03:11 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Is gas exchange for incubation as important as it is for fruiting? I got a hydropod built and ready to go, my air pump has an extra adapter and I was wondering if running one into my incubation chamber would help anything.


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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: kronnyQ]
    #3108162 - 09/08/04 03:15 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

it wont hurt but its not a biggie.Turning the jars upside down 1/2 way through has always worked fine.And having an airpu,mp in your incubation chamber will help circulate the air so that if you have alot of stacked jars tthere wont be hot and cool spots,but again its not a nessscetity.I was keeping jars in my ceiling where the had little air exchange and they grew just fine.


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Butternut squash are softer than acorn or other types of squash, which makes them easier to cut and prepare.


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: kronnyQ]
    #3108226 - 09/08/04 03:28 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

kronnyQ Welcome first off! :laugh: Just would like to mention you'll want to learn the difference from the beginning so as not to be confused as far as FAE (fresh air exchange) and gas exchange these are two separate things to the mycologist and the experienced growers :wink: GL and pay attention and you'll be kicking some shroomin ass!!!!

Gas exchange: The ability to release builtup gases resulting from the myc's metabolic activity (consuming substrate). A result of this inability to release these gas creates EXCESS myc piss which BTW is a normal process (myc piss) but an excess is not, it can easily stall a cake. (do not lick your cakes or leave your holes taped) :wink:

FAE (fresh air exchange) is the lowering of the co2 concentration through the introduction of fresh air plain and simple. A good fresh air exchange includes the stagnated moisture pockets of the casing surface (microclimate).
Now were on the same page. :wink:


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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: hyphae]
    #3109560 - 09/08/04 08:08 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

hyphae, perhaps you could clarify. It seems like an imaginary difference to me. It all fits plenty fine under the title "air exchange".


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Offlineshirley knott
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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: fastfred]
    #3109697 - 09/08/04 08:36 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

not imaginary, but detailed. the difference between an off-the-shelf violin and a prized stradivarius.

read it again.


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: fastfred]
    #3109875 - 09/08/04 09:14 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

fast fred you are done learning time for you to move on.


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Invisiblegeorge castanzaM
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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: fastfred]
    #3109910 - 09/08/04 09:21 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
hyphae, perhaps you could clarify.  It seems like an imaginary difference to me.  It all fits plenty fine under the title "air exchange".




this is one of the things that makes it obvious to all who have grown shrooms that you FF have not :pimpslap: :nutkick:

so please stop and try to save yourself a little dignity :ooo:


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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: george castanza]
    #3110681 - 09/09/04 12:03 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

OK, since you can't explain, you decide to insult me... That's pretty damn weak by any standards.

Your inablity to explain things and your lack of capitalization and punctuation make it painfully obvious that you have a poor grasp of the english language, but you should still at least attempt to have a point.


-FF


Edited by fastfred (09/09/04 02:32 AM)


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OfflineSpudz76
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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: fastfred]
    #3112176 - 09/09/04 04:38 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Settle down, people.

Fresh air exchange is where you introduce fresh air, regularly, and as a side effect blow the CO2 (and the rest of the air) out of the container. This requires some active method like an air pump or humidifier or simple fanning that causes an active air flow. You are replacing the CO2 (and all the rest of the air) with fresh air.

Gas exchange is where it happens more passively, such as with upside down jars or CO2 drain holes (without use of pumps or other active methods of adding 'fresh' air), where the CO2 "exchanges" out but you don't force it out by adding more air from somewhere. Of course air seeps back in to replace the CO2 but nowhere near exchanging the bulk of all air in the enclosure. Mostly, whatever air that is in there will stay there as-is unless it's heavier (such as the CO2).

Or so I believe. Yes, subtle difference, but a difference none the less. Nothing to argue about, if you see them as being the same then fine, but technically they are not the same. Both get rid of the CO2, so in that respect yeah they are the same. But one doesn't replace a large part of the stagnant non-CO2 air with new air.


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Invisiblegeorge castanzaM
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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: Spudz76]
    #3112186 - 09/09/04 04:42 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Spudz76 said:
Settle down, people.

Fresh air exchange is where you introduce fresh air, regularly, and as a side effect blow the CO2 (and the rest of the air) out of the container.  This requires some active method like an air pump or humidifier or simple fanning that causes an active air flow.  You are replacing the CO2 (and all the rest of the air) with fresh air.

Gas exchange is where it happens more passively, such as with upside down jars or CO2 drain holes (without use of pumps or other active methods of adding 'fresh' air), where the CO2 "exchanges" out but you don't force it out by adding more air from somewhere.  Of course air seeps back in to replace the CO2 but nowhere near exchanging the bulk of all air in the enclosure.  Mostly, whatever air that is in there will stay there as-is unless it's heavier (such as the CO2).

Or so I believe.  Yes, subtle difference, but a difference none the less.  Nothing to argue about, if you see them as being the same then fine, but technically they are not the same.  Both get rid of the CO2, so in that respect yeah they are the same.  But one doesn't replace a large part of the stagnant non-CO2 air with new air.



spoken like a grower with experience :thumbup:


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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: Spudz76]
    #3112192 - 09/09/04 04:45 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Thank you Spudz76 for that well reasoned response. I only wish there were more people like you. People who are both polite and can capitalize and punctuate. Too often people who can't even type properly go out of their way to be dicks.

Perhaps you should think about becoming a mod here?


-FF


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OfflineSpudz76
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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: george castanza]
    #3112433 - 09/09/04 07:31 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

george castanza said:
spoken like a grower with experience :thumbup:




Thank you, sir.  And tell kramer I said hi. :smile:

Quote:

fastfred said:
Perhaps you should think about becoming a mod here?





I definitely hang out enough, and tend to enjoy trying to keep the peace.  I don't know if I deserve that, yet, though.  If enough others think so then sure, I'd do it and be proud.

And actually haven't even fruited my first grow (though, pmp was set up over the last two days, so maybe in two weeks...) I just read and comprehend lots and try not to post if I'm not more than 80% sure I know what I'm saying, or have a somewhat legit question which I can't find the answer to.  My reg date (August 2nd) was actually my first foray into mycology at all.  So far, I love it to death.  Likely going to do some other edibles/gourmets too, Oysters look like fun.

And sorry for the unintentional hijack, kronnyQ.  Though your original question was well covered already it seems.


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: Spudz76]
    #3112639 - 09/09/04 09:48 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Spudz76 said:
Settle down, people.

Fresh air exchange is where you introduce fresh air, regularly, and as a side effect blow the CO2 (and the rest of the air) out of the container.  This requires some active method like an air pump or humidifier or simple fanning that causes an active air flow.  You are replacing the CO2 (and all the rest of the air) with fresh air.

Gas exchange is where it happens more passively, such as with upside down jars or CO2 drain holes (without use of pumps or other active methods of adding 'fresh' air), where the CO2 "exchanges" out but you don't force it out by adding more air from somewhere.  Of course air seeps back in to replace the CO2 but nowhere near exchanging the bulk of all air in the enclosure.  Mostly, whatever air that is in there will stay there as-is unless it's heavier (such as the CO2).

Or so I believe.  Yes, subtle difference, but a difference none the less.  Nothing to argue about, if you see them as being the same then fine, but technically they are not the same.  Both get rid of the CO2, so in that respect yeah they are the same.  But one doesn't replace a large part of the stagnant non-CO2 air with new air.


Actually gas exchange has nothing to do with getting rid of co2 you guys really do not understand what is going on do you :frown: . During incubation you want high levels of CO2 that is not the reason behind taking the tape off or flipping the jars Spudz You guys need to go back and reread what the difference actually is. Lets get on the same page guys, are you here to learn or to argue? Close Spudz but no cigar! :wink: I am not impressed with the learning curve here. :sad: This is not directed at you either Spudz.


Edited by hyphae (09/09/04 11:54 AM)


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: fastfred]
    #3112839 - 09/09/04 11:47 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:

Perhaps you should think about becoming a mod here?


-FF




Hey I am quite sure nobody promotes themselves a Moderator

They are invited :smirk:


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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OfflineSpudz76
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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3113752 - 09/09/04 03:30 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Fucknuckle said:
Quote:

fastfred said:

Perhaps you should think about becoming a mod here?


-FF




Hey I am quite sure nobody promotes themselves a Moderator

They are invited :smirk:



Quite correct.  Note I said if others thought so, then I would be proud to step up to the honor.  I did not say I thought so, in particular, in fact I said mosly the opposite.


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OfflineSpudz76
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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: hyphae]
    #3113851 - 09/09/04 03:43 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hyphae said:
Lets get on the same page guys, are you here to learn or to argue?



"Arguing on the Internet is like the Special Olympics: Even if you win, you're still retarded."

I am here to learn, and as a byproduct to help others using the gained knowledge. Learning becomes more difficult when you read ten incomplete explanations or definitions of something only to find out later that you misunderstood them all, or that five of them were almost completely misinformation or speculation. Also learning becomes less likely when people correct you with a simple "wrong! go read more" rather than actually explaining why you are not correct (especially if you got it mostly right).


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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: Spudz76]
    #3116988 - 09/10/04 02:45 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

If hyphae could explain himself he probably would have. IMO he's just BSing and making up imaginary definitions. Even if he's not, he explained himself so poorly as to actually sound ignorant on the subject.

The only thing I can think of is that he is trying to make some obscure point about a difference between air exchange and gas diffusion.


-FF


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: fastfred]
    #3120744 - 09/11/04 12:31 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I believe my definitions were put in very simple terms what aren't you understanding FF? Colonizing jars optimally will have co2 levels at 10,000+ PPM and do not require any FAE. This just may be over your head perhaps if you cannot understand something so simple? I know take a ziplock bag and put something rotting in it and seal it up as the metabolic activity of the bacteria consume there will be gases released and the bag will "bloat" the same as roadkill does or some dumbass that goes swimming drunk. We all here know who's the ingnorant one here FF have you no pride? You really act more like a troll than an experienced grower, Your constant attacking is not welcome here. Please your not helping the forum and we need you as a contributing member not someone with a chip on their shoulder. BTW we IP ban trolls at The Nook :wink:


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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: hyphae]
    #3121102 - 09/11/04 02:18 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Perhaps you should reread the thread. I have been asking for clarification and you have been responding with flames. You are the one being the troll here.

I think I understand the point you attempted to make. Instead of "gas exchange" you should have said pressure release, which is hardly the same thing. I believe your point was that, in jars, gas is released rather than being exchanged.

Had you corrected your mistake and clarified what you were trying to say we could have avoided hearing all of your complaining about me. Please try to be more constructive in the future.

>We all here know who's the ingnorant one here FF

Indeed we do.


-FF


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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: fastfred]
    #3121196 - 09/11/04 03:12 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

maybe hyphea wasnt quite as clear as he should ahve been, you also have the same problem fred, lets drop the impending flame war and continue with the subject at hand.

I'm sure we are all adult enough to manage that.


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: fastfred]
    #3121770 - 09/11/04 11:44 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I didn't state pressure release because that was just an indicator of metabolic activity that was not what I was talking about I thought it would perhaps help you a bit more in understanding is all. Everyone here by now knows my nature already. Any response from me hads been provoked! Now as P#1 said lets get on with the business at hand. TY P#1


Edited by hyphae (09/11/04 12:26 PM)


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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: hyphae]
    #3121809 - 09/11/04 12:10 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

P#1 would you explain what hyphae is trying to say? After his last statement I have even less idea what he is talking about. He's made no attempt to explain himself. The only thing he's done is repeatedly flame me. Then George jumps in and flames me too. Nobody has any explanation at all, so either they had a point and miscommunicated to a gross degree, or this entire thread ammounts to a flame against me.

Am I the only one who has to follow the rules? It seems like I've been asking this repeatedly. Enforce the rules for everyone or butt out and let this thread run it's course.

Hyphae, explain yourself or delete your insults! George explain Hyphae's point, or delete your insults. P#1, explain Hyphae's point or butt out until it gets explained or it becomes clear that hyphae had no point in the first place.

Don't think I'm disrespecting the mods here (god forbid), I have much respect for all of them.


Edited by fastfred (09/11/04 12:28 PM)


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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: fastfred]
    #3121841 - 09/11/04 12:26 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Hyphae is arguing that "Gas exchange" is not equal to "fresh air exchange". What is air? It's a gas. An exchange involves two objects or substances switching places. If there is only an inside and an outside then any "exchange" must involve fresh air. Therefore we have the statement "gas exchange" is not the same as "gas exchange"! That makes no sense at all. Hyphae is arbitrarily using words with imaginary meanings known only to him, just as I said in the beginning.

-FF


Edited by fastfred (09/11/04 12:43 PM)


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: fastfred]
    #3121915 - 09/11/04 12:51 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

fast fred we do not want to enter fresh air exchanges into a colonizing jar but we do want it to "breath" but yet keep co2 levels high. We do want to enter fresh air exchanges to our fruiting chamber to lower co2 levels. Gas exchange allows any built up gases to vent which allows the jar to breath, this is easier for the newbie to understand especially when talking about tape on the jars It is passive as was stated yes. When we speak of FAE (fresh air exchange) we are speaking of exchanging the total volume of air thereby lowering co2 concentrations in all actuality. Combining these two terms would totally confuse a newbie IMHO whereas separating them would help them . Point being FAE lowers CO2 concentrations gas exchange does not. I'm not arguing that fact you can break down the words and end up with the same thing I am only stating in "mycology" each term has a specific meaning and is even referenced to in TMC. GL FF


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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: fastfred]
    #3121929 - 09/11/04 12:55 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Hyphae is arguing that "Gas exchange" is not equal to "fresh air exchange". What is air? It's a gas. An exchange involves two objects or substances switching places.





During incubation there is 1 primary gas that is released, technicly it's not exchanged, look at Mycobags as a good example, you can vacuum them down and seal them, but once the spores germinate and the mycelium starts to spread you will notice that the bags begin to inflate, the CO2 is released through the filter patch, this technicaly isnt an exchange, its a release... using the term gas exchange is a little confusing for the proscess since there really is no intake of fresh air


during the fruiting period when most people use it, it's air or gas exchange, air being easier to understand for most to understand and allowing to differentiate between the 2 different proscesses, Air is more of a collection of gases, Nitrogen being the dominant at 78% followed by Oxygen at 20% the remaining gasses are in much smaller quantities including argon, carbon dioxide, krypton, helium, nitrogen oxide and a few others... because you are forcing fresh 'air' into the terrarium to replace the old CO2 laden 'air' it's an actual exchange

there are a great deal of terms used that are less than accurate to discribe proscesses in this hobby but its done with the intention od making it easy to understand for new users...


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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: fastfred]
    #3121984 - 09/11/04 01:12 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Gas Exchange= gas exchanges values

Gas Exchange
Gas Exchange
Gas Exchange
Gas Exchange
There is a ton of info out there FF it is not imaginary, I hope I was wrong earlier when I said you are done learning. In our field they're very common terms with separate meanings. GL FF


Edited by hyphae (09/11/04 02:50 PM)


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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: hyphae]
    #3122374 - 09/11/04 03:03 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Thank you hyphae. It makes a lot more sense to me now. That first link is great. Hopefully I'll never be done learning.

-FF


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Re: Gas exchange for myc vs. shrumes [Re: fastfred]
    #3122482 - 09/11/04 03:36 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

  lol with everyone.Education and entertainment in this forum is wonderful!Science could never be as much fun staring at a book,sitting at a desk,in a boring classroom.Air exchange rocks! :crazy2: P.S. I feel the same way about gas exchange.( fart humor) :laugh:


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