Home | Community | Message Board


Myco Supply
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
On the Outsourcing of Jobs
    #3099724 - 09/06/04 05:55 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Jobs Come and Go

In 1970, the telecommunications industry employed 421,000 switchboard operators. In the same year, Americans made 9.8 billion long distance calls. Today, the telecommunications industry employs only 78,000 operators. That's a tremendous 80 percent job loss.

What should Congress have done to save those jobs? Congress could have taken a page from India's history. In 1924, Mahatma Gandhi attacked machinery, saying it "helps a few to ride on the backs of millions" and warned, "The machine should not tend to make atrophied the limbs of man." With that kind of support, Indian textile workers were able to politically block the introduction of labor-saving textile machines. As a result, in 1970 India's textile industry had the level of productivity of ours in the 1920s.

Michael Cox, chief economist at the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas, and author Richard Alms told the rest of the telecommunications story in a New York Times article, "The Great Job Machine." Spectacular technological advances made it possible for the telecommunications industry to cut its manpower needs down to 78,000 to handle not the annual 9.8 billion long distance calls in 1970, but today's over 98 billion calls.

One forgotten beneficiary in today's job loss demagoguery is the consumer. Long distance calls are a tiny fraction of their cost in 1970. Just since 1984, long distance costs have fallen by 60 percent. Using 1970s technology, to make today's 98 billion calls would require 4.2 million operators. That's 3 percent of our labor force. Moreover, a long distance call would cost 40 times more than it does today.

Finding cheaper ways to produce goods and services frees up labor to produce other things. If productivity gains aren't made, where in the world would we find workers to produce all those goods that weren't even around in the 1970s?

It's my guess that the average anti-free-trade person wouldn't protest, much less argue that Congress should have done something about the job loss in the telecommunications industry. He'd reveal himself an idiot. But there's no significant economic difference between an industry using technology to reduce production costs and using cheaper labor to do the same. In either case, there's no question that the worker who finds himself out of a job because of the use of technology or cheaper labor might encounter hardships. The political difference is that it's easier to organize resentment against India and China than against technology.

Both Republican and Democratic interventionists like to focus on job losses as they call for trade restrictions, but let us look at what was happening in the 1990s. Cox and Alm report that recent Bureau of Labor Statistics show an annual job loss from a low of 27 million in 1993 to a high of 35.4 million in 2001. In 2000, when unemployment reached its lowest level, 33 million jobs were lost. That's the loss side. However, annual jobs created ranged from 29.6 million in 1993 to a high of 35.6 million in 1999.

These are signs of a healthy economy, where businesses start up, fail, downsize and upsize, and workers are fired and workers are hired all in the process of adapting to changing technological, economic and global conditions. Societies become richer when this process is allowed to occur. Indeed, because our nation has a history of allowing this process to occur goes a long way toward explaining why we are richer than the rest of the world.

Those Americans calling for government restrictions that would deny companies and ultimately consumers to benefit from cheaper methods of production are asking us to accept lower wealth in order to protect special interests. Of course, they don't cloak their agenda that way. It's always "national security," "level playing fields" and "protecting jobs". Don't fall for it -- we'll all become losers.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,724
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: On the Outsourcing of Jobs [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3099731 - 09/06/04 05:56 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

What should Congress have done to save those jobs?



Absolutely nothing.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: On the Outsourcing of Jobs [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3099942 - 09/06/04 06:59 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

>> One forgotten beneficiary in today's job loss demagoguery is the consumer.

that has to take into account lower prices vs lower wages...if the price goes down more than wages..then the consumer benefits...but the opposite case is also quite possible...

>> But there's no significant economic difference between an industry using technology to reduce production costs and using cheaper labor to do the same. In either case, there's no question that the worker who finds himself out of a job because of the use of technology or cheaper labor might encounter hardships.

there are significant differences...first of all..it takes time to implement new technologies..during which natural attrition will cover much of the job losses.. that 80% reduction in telecommunications employment didnt happen in the blink of an eye...second of all..the implementation of the technology itself creates new jobs...both of these could explain why it went largely unnoticed...

OTOH..offshoring jobs can be done overnite..and this process doesnt require any new technologies which create jobs.. a large number of jobs just simply disappear suddenly...

without any numbers to back this up..my gut feeling is that the technological case is the case where prices drop below wages..to the benefit of the consumer...but the offshoring case is the case where wages drop below prices..to the consumers' detriment...the article is comparing apples and oranges...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: On the Outsourcing of Jobs [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3099952 - 09/06/04 07:02 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

without any numbers to back this up



That really sums it up quite nicely. Provide some numbers which verify your claims and we'll talk.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: On the Outsourcing of Jobs [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3100054 - 09/06/04 07:39 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

i was trying to point out a qualitative difference between technology and offshoring...your right and my gut feeling may be wrong when the actual numbers are examined...thats why it says "gut feeling"...

but by dismissing the qualitative argument..your saying that the telephone technology simply appeared magically out of nowhere...or do you demand numbers to show that it actually does take time and effort to procure the technology??...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (09/06/04 08:34 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 2 days
Re: On the Outsourcing of Jobs [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3100198 - 09/06/04 08:28 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

There was a huge article in the Sunday magazine section of the NY Times this weekend about this and the fallacy that the government can create jobs. I can't link to it because it's a pay site, but I suggest reading it.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: On the Outsourcing of Jobs [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3100268 - 09/06/04 08:55 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
There was a huge article in the Sunday magazine section of the NY Times this weekend about this and the fallacy that the government can create jobs. I can't link to it because it's a pay site, but I suggest reading it.



Copy/Paste?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 2 days
Re: On the Outsourcing of Jobs [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3100278 - 09/06/04 08:57 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------


Edited by zappaisgod (09/06/04 09:26 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: On the Outsourcing of Jobs [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3101597 - 09/07/04 01:58 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

One forgotten beneficiary in today's job loss demagoguery is the consumer.

Try agreeing with this after you've just spent an hour trying to get information from a switchboard operator in India.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinethieverycorp
Stranger

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 181
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: On the Outsourcing of Jobs [Re: Xlea321]
    #3101614 - 09/07/04 02:02 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, that's one thing I've never understood, if they're going to outsource, either outsource to a country that speaks English well enough to understand, or don't outsource tele-service jobs...


--------------------




Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: On the Outsourcing of Jobs [Re: thieverycorp]
    #3101618 - 09/07/04 02:04 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

It's cheaper to go to a country that doesn't speak english very well so you can pay them less. Yeah it fucks the consumer but profit comes first.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinethieverycorp
Stranger

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 181
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: On the Outsourcing of Jobs [Re: Xlea321]
    #3101622 - 09/07/04 02:05 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

well yeah I understand the motives...
actually I was kind of making a joke :shrug:


--------------------




Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: On the Outsourcing of Jobs [Re: thieverycorp]
    #3101633 - 09/07/04 02:10 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I'm sure one of our rightwing friends will explain why they do so  :laugh:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineSkikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Re: On the Outsourcing of Jobs [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3101657 - 09/07/04 02:16 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Alright, I know this is dumb, but I looked at this name and cracked up

"Richard Alms"

Dick Gifts

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

God, I love being drunk in a serious forum.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: On the Outsourcing of Jobs [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3101718 - 09/07/04 02:28 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

without any numbers to back this up



That really sums it up quite nicely. Provide some numbers which verify your claims and we'll talk.




fortunately..such numbers do exist ..

http://www.silo.lib.ia.us/specialized-se...ian20002003.pdf

the 3-year median income in 1999-2001 was $44552.. in 2001-2003 it had dropped $1015 to $43527...but that still doesnt say anything about offshoring...however..those offshored jobs are included in the 2.7 million jobs that disappeared in that same time period (that statistic is all over the web).. the jobs deficit has since shrunk to 913000..but those new jobs pay on average $9000 less (http://www.epinet.org/webfeatures/snapshots/archive/2004/0121/snap20040121_wage_diff_table.pdf .. thats where john kerry got that number from)...meanwhile prices definitely didnt go down in that same period (http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpid03av.pdf)...so based on that..we can safely assume that at least in this particular case..offshoring has not produced any benefits to the consumers...

OTOH..however..im still inclined to agree with the article in the technological case...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCyber
Ash
Male User Gallery Arcade Champion: Yeti Sports

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 1,476
Loc: Dearborn Michigan
Last seen: 6 months, 29 days
Re: On the Outsourcing of Jobs [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3102329 - 09/07/04 10:18 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Every time I see one of these stories and the responces that follow, I can not help but laugh!

Yes, The average wage had gone down.
Yes, There are fewer jobs.
Yes, Companies are moving jobs oversees.
Yes, Life sucks!

But whining about it, complaining about it, and begging the government to stop it, do nothing to change the situation!

Ill give an example. At one of my previous jobs, after being laid off the CEO asked me what I was going to do. To which I replied, "Get a new job." He then preceded to tell me about how bad the job market was and how hard it is to find a job in this economy. After listening to him whine and complain about the job market and economy for a few minuets he asked, "What if you can not find a new job?" To which I responded "Then Ill make a new job!"

I then went and found a job with a new company. After 90 days they let me go with the statement "We do not think you are meeting our expectations."

After that I looked, found the job market to be a little soft and decided to create my own job!

Now 3 month later I have an income of 6K to 10K per month and if all goes well ill be looking to give one of those whining "There are no jobs" losers a job. Where for every dollar I pay him, I can make 3.

The point is, as the market changes you have to be ready to change with it. You have to have skills that people want and will pay for. If you don't then you can fight with all the other unskilled labor for a job, and never get anywhere, or you can learn new skills and make it in life. This country (The US) is the land of opportunity. Grab the bull by the horns and go for it.

To to use the words of the CEO of one of the companies I worked for "Lead, Follow, or get out of the FU**ING way!"


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: On the Outsourcing of Jobs [Re: Cyber]
    #3102952 - 09/07/04 01:26 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

yeah..right..blame the victims.. its the will of god...hard to imagine a much weaker argument...you have just won the neocon-twit-of-the-day award :smile:...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (09/07/04 02:27 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: On the Outsourcing of Jobs [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3103148 - 09/07/04 02:24 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/05/magazine/05JOBS.html

Quote:

Since the government can only make so many transfers, the real question is how to prod the labor market so that firms will, on their own, pay better rewards. This is most important for lower-wage workers. Adjusted for inflation, over the last three decades the bottom half of American households have done little better than tread water. Alleviating this nagging problem won't be easy, in part because of America's justly prized flexibility. Elected officials don't like to admit it, but lower wages are probably a price that Americans pay for having more jobs; that is, America's greater flexibility, including its willingness to work for less, results in more work.




thats cute...one point the authour misses is that the most flexible workforce is slave labour...if you were rotting in one of hitlers  gulags..then at least you would not be unemployed :rotfl:...

Quote:

There is a highly negative consequence to slow-rising, or ''sticky,'' wages: people get discouraged from looking for work or from working as hard. This is a bigger deal than you might suppose. According to a study by Goldman Sachs, the reason America's living standard has risen relative to Europe's over the last decade is, simply, that we work more. Despite what you may have read about America's vaunted productivity, it is not the reason for our superior performance. Europeans are increasing their productivity -- the output per hour of work -- at a slightly faster rate. But our population is growing faster, and it is aging more slowly, thanks to a greater birth rate and higher immigration. And Europeans simply do not work as long, says Kevin Daly, the study's author. A result of all these factors is that on a per capita basis, Europeans work a startling 28 percent fewer hours. You can call them lazy, or you can say, as an economist would, that they prefer to ''spend'' their increased productivity to acquire more leisure.




first of all..i would like to know how the authour defines a "standard of living" (a relative concept) which is rising in the US wrt europe...second of all..the authour admits that americans are forced to work longer hours at lower pay..hardly a "superior preformance"...meanwhile heres the numbers to prove that hes wrong.. superior preformance my ass...unemployment in europe currently stands at 6.9% (OECD) vs 5.4% in the US...is it really worth it to gain 1.5% employment??...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineSkikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Re: On the Outsourcing of Jobs [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3103882 - 09/07/04 05:19 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

AM I THE ONLY ONE HERE THAT THINKS "richard alms" is a funny name? Damn, fuck you people.

But to address the topic, you can't stop technology. People bitch saying "america is loosing manufacturing jobs" While that is true, it is also true that the rest of the world is loosing manufacturing jobs to technology.

So its either stop/slow technology, or change the workforce.

Limited resources + unlimited needs = shitty life for some

Not saying I like it that way, just saying the way it is.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: On the Outsourcing of Jobs [Re: Xlea321]
    #3104178 - 09/07/04 06:20 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
It's cheaper to go to a country that doesn't speak english very well so you can pay them less. Yeah it fucks the consumer but profit comes first.




Well for one they all are very qualified in India, they just don't speak the greatest english. And the lesser cost equals you getting a cheaper profit. But i don't really like job outsourcing, to bad America's socialist pollicies make it happen.

And Alex if it bothers that much you should make yourself heard. The beauty of capitalism is when the consumers change what is wrong with the situation.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* "Bush: Outsourcing Jobs Since 2000" bumper sticker starptv23 1,051 17 03/15/05 01:35 AM
by JesusChrist
* outsourced jobs, a crime against humanity afoaf 283 0 10/06/04 08:26 PM
by afoaf
* Job Outsourcing
( 1 2 3 all )
silversoul7 2,313 46 08/20/04 11:50 PM
by Evolving
* Bush outsourced Alex213 329 3 09/16/05 07:47 PM
by Los_Pepes
* dear right wingers
( 1 2 all )
KingOftheThing 1,752 23 08/03/05 07:50 PM
by z@z.com
* Efficiently working to the poor house.
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Innvertigo 4,641 93 02/23/04 05:43 AM
by luvdemshrooms
* Union wages and outsourcing JesusChrist 655 8 03/17/05 12:03 PM
by afoaf
* W.House: Tax Cuts to Create 800,000 Jobs
( 1 2 3 all )
Ellis Dee 3,732 40 03/03/02 11:53 PM
by sparafucile

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Prisoner#1, Enlil
2,437 topic views. 5 members, 2 guests and 9 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Edabea
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.11 seconds spending 0.003 seconds on 16 queries.