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Offlinenewcultivator
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pressure cooker
    #3079189 - 09/01/04 08:33 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

i dont have a psi gauge on my pressure cooker so i was wondering if somebody could tell me how hot to make my stove top and for how long to pressure cook my jars.. any help would be greatly appreciated.


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OfflineKaptKid
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Re: pressure cooker [Re: newcultivator]
    #3079242 - 09/01/04 08:45 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Do you know the psi of the weight? There is a PC tek in faq.


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OfflineDr_Nick_Riviera
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Re: pressure cooker [Re: newcultivator]
    #3079260 - 09/01/04 08:49 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

hey,
I also just picked up an old pressure cooker without the gauge. You should have a little weight that sits on top of the lid where the steam comes out. This weight is used to indicate the pressure, from what I've read about old pressure cookers is that when the little weight begins to bounce around about 3 to 5 times a minute, the psi is at about 15.

I put mine on the about 3/4 the way on the stove (dont know the temp sorry) for atleast 40 mins, although mine is a bit old and dodgey with gaps for steam to come out, so yours might not need to be as high to make your weight jiggle around.

Hope this has helped a bit.


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Offlinep_knutt
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Re: pressure cooker [Re: newcultivator]
    #3079266 - 09/01/04 08:50 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Are there different weights that you can put on it?  I know that my mirro pressure cooker has three metal pieces that you can screw onto the top, one metal piece = 5 psi, 2 = 10 psi and all 3 metal pieces = 15 psi.  As for how hot to make the stove, I heat mine on high until the weights start to wobble, then I turn it down to medium.  Did your pressure cooker come with directions?  I know that might be a silly question, but it never hurts to ask.  I pressure cook my jars for an hour and 10 minutes.  Hope that helped. :goodluck:


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Offlineshaman2b
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Re: pressure cooker [Re: newcultivator]
    #3079285 - 09/01/04 08:55 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I *think* that most consumer-grade PC's operate at 10-12 psi. As far as heat goes, you'll have to gauge it based on the rocking pssht-pssht sound of the stopcock after you reach pressure. At that point, an hour should work great.

Until I got my All-American unit, that's the way I did it and there were no problems with contams.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: pressure cooker [Re: shaman2b]
    #3079325 - 09/01/04 09:01 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

>I pressure cook my jars for an hour and 10 minutes.<

What size jars are you using? That seems like quite a long while to pc them for.


-FF


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OfflineMAGnum
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Re: pressure cooker [Re: KaptKid]
    #3079359 - 09/01/04 09:06 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

You don't need a guage, just cook it for an hour.

Read the instructions with the thing too, you do not want to blow it up.


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Offlinep_knutt
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Re: pressure cooker [Re: fastfred]
    #3079438 - 09/01/04 09:21 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

i use 1 quart jars


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: pressure cooker [Re: p_knutt]
    #3081320 - 09/02/04 06:17 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I find 45 min is enough with a good pc and 1hr is plenty.


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: pressure cooker [Re: p_knutt]
    #3082037 - 09/02/04 11:48 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

1/2pts. 45-1hr. Quarts nothing less than an hour, I usually go 60-75min. depending on how the grain was prepared. Large mycobags in a stuffed PC get 90-120min. GL


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: pressure cooker [Re: hyphae]
    #3085927 - 09/03/04 04:24 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Actually 1/2 pints are supposed to be PCed for 20 min...

NOT 45 MIN TO 1 HR AS YOU SUGGEST.

You need to actually read the PF tek before you start giving advice hyphae.


I advise everyone to read the tek so you won't be fooled when somebody says something outrageous like that.

Here is what the PF tek actually says:

Sterilization times
1. 1/2 pint PF substrate jars - 12 p.s.i. for 20 minutes
2. Water bottles - 12 p.s.i. for 55 minutes
3. Syringes and needles - 12 p.s.i. for 10 minutes


-FF


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Invisibleutopianglory
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Re: pressure cooker [Re: Dr_Nick_Riviera]
    #3085961 - 09/03/04 04:41 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Dr_Nick_Riviera said:
hey,
I also just picked up an old pressure cooker without the gauge. You should have a little weight that sits on top of the lid where the steam comes out. This weight is used to indicate the pressure, from what I've read about old pressure cookers is that when the little weight begins to bounce around about 3 to 5 times a minute, the psi is at about 15.

I put mine on the about 3/4 the way on the stove (dont know the temp sorry) for atleast 40 mins, although mine is a bit old and dodgey with gaps for steam to come out, so yours might not need to be as high to make your weight jiggle around.

Hope this has helped a bit.




Errr, no.

There seems to be an alarming number of people who do not know how weight based pressure cookers work.

When the weight begins venting steam, the pressure that the weight is designed to achieve in the pressure cooker is reached. The pressure itself causes the weight to fractionally elevate causing a vent to be produced.

This has nothing to do with frequency of how many times it bounces, it shouldn't bounce atall if the heat is constant (unless someone is heavily walking around or cooker is knocked in which case it bounces and you will hear a sudden increase in vented pressure for a fraction of a second).

The weight system is designed to indicate one thing, X psi is achieved in the cooker, now any excess pressure is going to be vented. It is not designed to indicate pressure with bouncing or anything like that.

If you increase the heat once you have a steam coming out of the vent then you are only really going to be venting more excess pressure. You may achieve a small increase but you have to realise that mostly it just makes a lot more noise as you're just venting more excess pressure.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: pressure cooker [Re: utopianglory]
    #3085982 - 09/03/04 04:51 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Errr, yes. Actually a lot of PC manuals do describe regulating the heat based on the frequency of weight jiggling.

Also, you may get your pressure without the weight jiggling, but sterilization also depends on the ammount of steam passing over your contents. Having your weight venting steam several times a minute is important to ensure that there is good steamflow through the cooker.


-FF


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Invisibleutopianglory
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Re: pressure cooker [Re: fastfred]
    #3086144 - 09/03/04 06:01 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

You must be talking about a different type of weight to me then. My weight does not bounce atall. Its just a weight.. if its bounces then the steam passing out is not constant.

Sterilization doesn't really depend on steam passing over the contents. Sterilization depends on X psi being achieved, thus increasing the boiling point of water to higher temperature. Steam is a byproduct, not the primary concern. Your primary concern is that the the pressure is achieved and therefore the temperature of the cooker is allowed to rise higher than that would be achievable by just boiling in a pot.


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Offlineliveby
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Re: pressure cooker [Re: utopianglory]
    #3086154 - 09/03/04 06:08 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

utopianglory said:
Steam is a byproduct, not the primary concern.




with out steam there would not be any pressure!u cant do it with dirt !


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Re: pressure cooker [Re: utopianglory]
    #3086166 - 09/03/04 06:12 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

You must be talking about a different type of weight to me then. My weight does not bounce atall. Its just a weight.. if its bounces then the steam passing out is not constant.





The bouncing is not constant, but the airflow will be continuously circulating and regularly passing out the vent.

You are ignoring the thermodynamics of actually transmitting the heat to your contents, for that the steam is important. Having a flow inside helps your contents get up to temp the same way that faster moving air will heat or cool a person faster than having no air current.

You're right about the primary concern being the pressure. The right pressure makes the steam hot enough to sterilize the contents.

Look in your PC manual... Follow the instructions. Most say to adjust the heat so that the weight jiggles several times a minute. Free steaming is also a good idea to do for about 5 min before starting the run.

BTW it is also a well known fact that wet heat sterilizes much better than dry heat, hence the importance of the steam.


-FF


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Offlineliveby
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Re: pressure cooker [Re: newcultivator]
    #3086173 - 09/03/04 06:14 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

AAHH HHA!


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Invisibleutopianglory
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Re: pressure cooker [Re: fastfred]
    #3086185 - 09/03/04 06:24 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Also, you may get your pressure without the weight jiggling, but sterilization also depends on the ammount of steam passing over your contents.





I was referring to that comment Liveby.

Its a cyclical argument anyway, you can't have your pressure without your steam. So really we're arguing about nothing but if we had an 18 psi weight on the cooker with 15psi running in the cooker we could have no steam escaping and still be at the correct pressure to be sterilizing the jars. Steam escaping means nothing.


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Invisibleutopianglory
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Re: pressure cooker [Re: fastfred]
    #3086197 - 09/03/04 06:33 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Quote:

You must be talking about a different type of weight to me then. My weight does not bounce atall. Its just a weight.. if its bounces then the steam passing out is not constant.





The bouncing is not constant, but the airflow will be continuously circulating and regularly passing out the vent. 

You are ignoring the thermodynamics of actually transmitting the heat to your contents, for that the steam is important.  Having a flow inside helps your contents get up to temp the same way that faster moving air will heat or cool a person faster than having no air current.

You're right about the primary concern being the pressure.  The right pressure makes the steam hot enough to sterilize the contents.

Look in your PC manual...  Follow the instructions.  Most say to adjust the heat so that the weight jiggles several times a minute.  Free steaming is also a good idea to do for about 5 min before starting the run.

BTW it is also a well known fact that wet heat sterilizes much better than dry heat, hence the importance of the steam.


-FF




Like I said, my weight doesn't bounce atall.  Even at high steam rates it only bounces when it is disturbed (the cooker).  Think of mine as a capacitor.  It just does not falter atall.  It charges and then at 15 psi the excess pressure is vented in a constant stream.

I'm just pointing out that the fascination with steam means nothing in practical terms of achieving X PSI.  Sure, at boiling point water because vapor and we have airflow but thats not important to John Smith outside the cooker.  If he can show that he has his pressure he can be sure that he has steam. 

I know you think the absolute same thing as me so I see no point in arguing.  I just try to focus on the things that are practical to the newbie because they are the ones that are going to read all about steam and misinterpret the information.  :smile:

Peace.


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Re: pressure cooker [Re: utopianglory]
    #3086236 - 09/03/04 07:05 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

What kind of canner are you using? Every one I've seen has some sort of a weight that bounces or rattles.

The manuals say to regulate the heat by this. I don't think it's good advice to tell noobs that their weight doesn't need to rattle, because 99% chance is says different in their manual. Always follow the manual.


-FF


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Invisibleutopianglory
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Re: pressure cooker [Re: fastfred]
    #3086314 - 09/03/04 08:05 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I've used two and they both just had weights that vented at 15 psi without question. No rattling. Just venting. I never run them high enough for much more than a stream of steam to come out.

Try to remember, I'm telling people to stop increasing heat when you first encounter steam. Its hardly dangerous advice to say this.

Some models have snap on, or fixed weight that is stationary. The regulator rises up on the vent pipe when pressure is achieved, but it does not rock or jiggle

http://missvickie.com/library/1st-generation.html


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Re: pressure cooker [Re: utopianglory]
    #3086357 - 09/03/04 09:01 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Again, what brands?

All American, and presto both have weights that jiggle. These are the most common ones used AFAIK... They both mention regulating the heat by the frequency of the rattling in the manual...

Again, always follow the manual, regardless of what utopianglory says.

Are you talking about a spring valve?

-FF


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Invisibleutopianglory
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Re: pressure cooker [Re: fastfred]
    #3086584 - 09/03/04 10:51 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not talking about a spring valve, I'm talking exactly about what I quoted from the page. A stationary weight. Its really pretty easy to imagine. Its a weight that moves up when the pressure coming out of the blocked hole exceeds the force required to lift it.

It doesn't matter what the brand is, obviously these are much fewer and far between than I originally thought.

Just for the record, I never told anybody to not follow the manual I just made an honest mistake in assuming that stationary weight cookers were what everybody had. These are people who are generally getting cookers from second hand stores without manuals (as they are not generally made anymore) so the manual isn't an option.


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Re: pressure cooker [Re: utopianglory]
    #3086606 - 09/03/04 11:01 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

That link shows a weight that looks like it will shake and jiggle or bounce. None of those types of weights emit a steady ammount of steam, at least ones that I've seen. The same site you link to describes that type of weight as being "noisy", and even describes it as a "jiggle-top". So I think either you are confused or there is some problem with your cooker.

Perhaps something is wrong with your weight... Does it look beat up? They can get stuck easily... The type you show should rock freely somewhat.


-FF


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Invisibleutopianglory
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Re: pressure cooker [Re: fastfred]
    #3086642 - 09/03/04 11:22 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

The stationary weight is talked about in the variations section. It is not discussed in any length and not pictured (and I used to have the manual for the cooker).


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Re: pressure cooker [Re: utopianglory]
    #3086672 - 09/03/04 11:31 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Oh... You mean this:

"Some models have snap on, or fixed weight that is stationary. The regulator rises up on the vent pipe when pressure is achieved, but it does not rock or jiggle. It is somewhat more difficult to monitor the pressure on this type of cooker because you have to rely more on the sound.. When pressure is achieved there is a lot of noise from venting steam, at that point you lower the heat. Properly adjusted, you should see less steam and hear a softer hissing of continuously escaping steam."

Why didn't you say so more clearly in the first place? I would imagine that type of venting system is pretty rare.

Personally I wouldn't trust anything other than the "all american" or old school jiggle-top type weight. They work like a charm and are the most reliable.


-FF


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Invisibleutopianglory
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Re: pressure cooker [Re: fastfred]
    #3086791 - 09/03/04 12:04 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Oh... You mean this:

"Some models have snap on, or fixed weight that is stationary. The regulator rises up on the vent pipe when pressure is achieved, but it does not rock or jiggle. It is somewhat more difficult to monitor the pressure on this type of cooker because you have to rely more on the sound.. When pressure is achieved there is a lot of noise from venting steam, at that point you lower the heat. Properly adjusted, you should see less steam and hear a softer hissing of continuously escaping steam."

Why didn't you say so more clearly in the first place? I would imagine that type of venting system is pretty rare.

Personally I wouldn't trust anything other than the "all american" or old school jiggle-top type weight. They work like a charm and are the most reliable.


-FF




I quoted the first sentence talking about that in italics in the post where I had the URL (the rest is unnecessary, you wanted confirmation and I gave it to you).


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Re: pressure cooker [Re: utopianglory]
    #3086847 - 09/03/04 12:19 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I see... I thought that the link was just your sig for awhile, that explains the confusion. It's confusing to post a link at the very bottom of a post and to quote using italics rather than quotes, I had no idea what you meant.

I'll try to read your posts more carefully in the future.


-FF


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Invisibleutopianglory
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Re: pressure cooker [Re: fastfred]
    #3087290 - 09/03/04 02:05 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Ok we're good now :smile:


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: pressure cooker [Re: fastfred]
    #3087557 - 09/03/04 03:15 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

IME not from reading some tek 20min. is not enough time especially when a PC is packed, liquids on the other hand do just fine with 15-20min. That was my personal recommendation FF so get your head out of the books and pay attention you just might learn something. :wink: And woodzmun I've never ever had a single jar dry out in wet sterilization :wink: One reason jars do dry out is because people don't know how to PC! They leave dry air pockets a do not purge the PC of dry air long enough, 3-4min. of steam coming out of the vent is what is usually takes for any of my PC's. Some people are book smart and some people are street smart you guys really need to get a clue :wink: I wish you all the best and hope you get the answers that will truely benefit.


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Re: pressure cooker [Re: hyphae]
    #3087613 - 09/03/04 03:30 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

hyphae said:
IME not from reading some tek 20min. is not enough time especially when a PC is packed, liquids on the other hand do just fine with 15-20min. That was my personal recommendation FF so get your head out of the books and pay attention you just might learn something. :wink:




Why don't you argue this point with PF?  Maybe he'll change the tek to make you happy.
But I think possibly the tens of thousands of people who have successfully followed his method would disagree with you.

Don't pack your PC overfull, or adjust the times slightly longer.

I agree with you 100% about the free steaming for 3-5 min it goes a long way towards getting good results with the PC.


-FF


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: pressure cooker [Re: fastfred]
    #3087800 - 09/03/04 04:18 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

FF I'm not talking overfull. Get a clue! It's always been known that increased times are needed when PCing a fully loaded PC. How long you been growing, just curious? OH BTW the professor wasn't the first guy to grow shrooms, and FYI I was growing before PFTek was even around. And again that was my personal preference so keep it real FF and please stop trying to belittle people because it doesn't help the cause.


Edited by hyphae (09/03/04 04:31 PM)


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Re: pressure cooker [Re: hyphae]
    #3088006 - 09/03/04 05:16 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

"Packed" is overfull in my mind. There should be room for the steam to circulate all around the jars. If by "packed" you simply mean full then that is fine. Increased time is required for large loads, but varies depending on your type of PC, how the contents are arranged, etc.

>How long you been growing, just curious?

I've been out of circulation for quite some time. You'll have to excuse me if I'm a couple years behind. I first grew around 1996.

>keep it real FF and please stop trying to belittle people because it doesn't help the cause.

I'm not trying to belittle anyone. If I came across that way, I'm sorry. I'm sure that your methods work just fine, but so do PFs. Personally, I usually went 25-30 min just to be safe. But, the official PF method of 20 min works just fine also.


-FF


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Re: pressure cooker [Re: fastfred]
    #3088036 - 09/03/04 05:27 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Yes by "packed" I meant fully loaded to capacity. I'm sure PF's recommendation works just fine and I am a little over cautious when it comes to my sterile culture technique, as a result I've only had only one bout with trich in a Ps. cyan grow. "knock on wood!"


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Re: pressure cooker [Re: fastfred]
    #3088160 - 09/03/04 06:01 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I'm with Magash. I believe in over kill. I bought organic rye grain berries. Soaked them or 36 hours till they started fermenting. Rinsed and simmered in pot for 45 minutes to add moisture. Filled one quart jars leaving enough room for shaking. punched a breathing hole and an inoculation hole. Cut tyvek disks to size. Tighten all down. Covered in aluminum foil. Set in All American 15 1/2 quart PC. Seven one quart jars fit. Added 2 inches of water to bottom. Covered and clamped. Put stove on medium. Pressure slowly increased. No steam was ever released. Started timer when pressure reaced 15 1/2 lbs. Pressure was kept stable between 17 and 18 lbs per square inch for one hour. PC was allowed to cool slowly without help. Release valve was opened to remove vacuum. Jars were removed and set aside to cool.

Syringes, 91% isopropyl, bandaids and lighter and cotton balls were made ready. Incubator was set up to remain steady between 82' and 85' F. Syringe tip torched red with lighter. Cooled and wiped with 91% isopropyl cotton swab. 2cc of Koh Sumai Super Strain injected in 14 hour cooled spawn. Bandaid covered injection sight. 4 days later, thick cottony white mycelium is spreading slowly through medium. No spider web. No other contaminants noticed. I love Magash. He is the man. A very cool Jamband has to write a song dedicated to Magash.

Follow his directions. Believe in overkill. Believe in keeping it simple. Believe in yourself. And You will succeed.

There are other regular experienced posters I feel I'm going to develop respect and fondness for in the near future, But I am too unsure post about them yet.

Good Luck My Friends,
I wish you all well.
And Thank you Magash!


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: pressure cooker [Re: GoaM]
    #3088175 - 09/03/04 06:07 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

24 hrs of soaking is plenty, you don't want it to ferment. You could lower the temperature if you really want to soak that long. The difference between 72F instead of 85F makes a ton of difference in reducing fermentation.


-FF


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Re: pressure cooker [Re: fastfred]
    #3088193 - 09/03/04 06:11 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

The color of the soaked rye hadn't changed in 24 hours. My ambient temperature was 64'f. I felt I should give it more time. What do you think?


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Re: pressure cooker [Re: GoaM]
    #3088393 - 09/03/04 07:06 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Since you're simmering also I wouldn't go longer than 24 hours, unless you've already done it once and want to modify the water content for the next batch.

I only do a 24 hr soak without any simmering at all. It's always worked great for me. Magash has probably done a lot more though, so I would listen to him and do his way first.

I got way too much rotting and fermenting when I used much more than 30 hrs of soaking. YMMV.


-FF


Edited by fastfred (09/03/04 07:28 PM)


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Invisiblewoodzmun
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Re: pressure cooker *DELETED* *DELETED* [Re: newcultivator]
    #3088396 - 09/03/04 07:07 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by woodzmun


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Re: pressure cooker [Re: woodzmun]
    #3088479 - 09/03/04 07:31 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

1 hour for grain jars is a about right. I've gotten away with 45 min many times, but I usually use around 1 hr for PCing.


-FF


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Re: pressure cooker [Re: fastfred]
    #3088934 - 09/03/04 09:11 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Yes thank you friends. This was the first since PF tek in the mid ninetities. I splurged on an All American cooker. Soaked my rye grain till color change and bubbled. drained, rinsed. Simmered 45 minutes per Magash Rye tek, and sterilized at 16 to 18 lbs for hour starting timer when pc reached 15 1/2 lbs. The Koh Sumai spore inoculations (after a minimum 14 hour cool down period from pc) have germinated(much to my releif it's been in the 110+ when these were delivered). Many spots of beutiful white fuzz. Spreading fast through jars from many different points. But mycelium is thick and not transparent like spiderweb. Looks like it will take quite a few days to fill jars. I just shook jars loose and mixed to get more even spread.

Now I must build Martha. Hopefully I will get a cheap digital camera and post pictures of my vintage all american, and the KS mycelium in 10 quart jars and my lame attempt at a Martha fruiting chamber. 8-)

So for now WOOOOhOOOOO! And I love you guys. I'll be talking to you soon and asking advice. Thanx all.

Peace, Plur, and cow manure!
And Particle Rocks!


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Re: pressure cooker [Re: fastfred]
    #3089268 - 09/03/04 10:34 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I got way too much rotting and fermenting when I used much more than 30 hrs of soaking. YMMV.




I'll soak till the water color changes and it starts foaming a bit (fermenting) and then follow Magash's suggestions for simmer and PC.


Edited by tweaker_X (09/05/04 12:27 PM)


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Re: pressure cooker [Re: GoaM]
    #3101806 - 09/07/04 02:50 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

question i read you can pc water bottle wouldnt it melt do you have to use a glass bottle or jar ? i tryed boiling water in pot let it sit then poored it in still hot ,thinking of the inside of bottle may not be sterile it deformed the bottle and makes it plastic flavor . also it would be cool to use tapwater for everything. so to pc do you need to use distilled water? what do you all use? hope this is of topic here


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