|
 Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
|
 SCIOpenEyedDream
DillusionalDreamer
Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Western Europe
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
|
 Agar ;) 
#3064508 - 08/29/04 07:30 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
So yeah... I'm checking out agar. But it's hard to find information aside of the teks that actually show you how to do it. It's really hard to find information on why you do it. I gathered that you can shoot a little bit of a syringe on an agar plate, let it grow, then cut that plate into many pieces, inoculation other agar plates with the original one. Then end up inocing rye jars with all of those plates. So I can see how it makes your syringe go a lot further. Just checking if I have all of that understood correctly? Also, how long can I store an agar plate that has myc grown all over it before I can no longer use it to grow? I'm sure it will be an estimate as no one can be sure. Thanks guys!
--------------------
Everything I say on this board is a lie.
Eat more string cheese. It's good for you.
|
 Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
|
|
http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/3315
I have a couple of plates in my fridge for more than 2 years...
|
SCIOpenEyedDream
DillusionalDreamer
Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Western Europe
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
|
|
2 years? Wow... I see the benefit over syringes now. While I wait for colonizing (waiting sucks ;\ ) I'll have to read up on my Agar. Thanks again to this amazing forum and everyone on it!
--------------------
Everything I say on this board is a lie.
Eat more string cheese. It's good for you.
|
Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
|
|
syringes can last for a few years as well, the fresher the better but none the less... I gifted a friend of mine with a dozen or so that were being stored in a shed for a couple of years, he grew some out and said they lost very little viability
Agar is best suited for obtaiing a pure culture, I normaly use it for questionable prints and wild prints.
|
scatmanrav
Brainy Smurf
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,483
Loc: 
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
|
|
I'd suggest using a liquid media and making myc syringes. It's basically the same thing but you leave out the agar in the recipe. So for say MEA were you have malt and agar you just make malt water and inject a few spores into that. The myc will grow in a few weeks and youll see it then you can just take a syringe and suck it up. You put new water in the syringe before doing it and squirt the water in then suck the myc out and then you can just keep that jar of myc and use that for a LONG time, 100's of innoculations. Liquid cultures are easier to deal with then agar as well, no messing with plates and pouring and solidifying and cutting wedges and such. I used to use plates that way but now I've moved on.
Also a benifit of starting with myc (be it plate or liquid) it cuts colonization time ALOT because you dont have to wait for spores to germinate. Grains go from 13 days colonization time with spores to 6-7 with myc.
And I still do use agar but for isolation purposes. Thats the real reason agar is used as grain to grain transfers (just scoop out a piece of grain into a new jar) are so easy and liquid cultures (search karo tek, honeywater tek, malt can be substituted along with a number of other things) are as well. What I mean by isolation is two things. If you have a contamed syringe you can take a chunk of white stuff from a contamed jar and throw it on agar and get it away from the contams. I dont know if this will work with every mold but I was getting green and pinheads (both grain loving molds, not sugar loving which is what MEA is, sugar that is) and if I transfered myc to new grain jars the spores would germinate. Then I threw a peice on a plate and (as best as I understand) because they didnt have the food they liked they didnt germinate but the white stuff grew. I then used that to make grain jars and they are ok finally. I couldnt have done that without agar.
Another thing is even with a clean syringe you have what is called a multispore. It's just all random spores taken from a single cap. Some spores are good and some arent so good. You want to get only the strong to survive though, so you want to find the strongest spore. If you squirt spores on agar you'll notice that growth starts in different places and some will be fuzzy but some will be very ropey and quick. Thats the good stuff you want. You then transfer only that peice to a new plate then that plate will grow out QUICKLY and look beautiful. You can see what I mean if you do plates when you do a multispore, the plate doesn't always even finish but the one that you took the good peice and put it on will finish very fast. Then use every bit of that plate and put some wedges into some jars and put one wedge into a liquid culture. Now you have a bunch of jars (can do about 10 plus the liquid culture off one plate) and a liquid culture all using very rhizmiphoric mycelium that will colonize very quickly and supposedly give you better fruits. This isolation is not needed and multispores work just fine, you could just inject some spores into the karo water and that would be multispore but it would grow and fairly quick in your jars (compared to starting jars with spores) and work just fine.
Hope this helps. Good luck.
|
shirley knott
not my real name
Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 9,105
Loc: London
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
|
|
Quote:
scatmanrav said:
I'd suggest using a liquid media and making myc syringes. It's basically the same thing but you leave out the agar in the recipe. So for say MEA were you have malt and agar you just make malt water and inject a few spores into that. The myc will grow in a few weeks and youll see it then you can just take a syringe and suck it up. You put new water in the syringe before doing it and squirt the water in then suck the myc out and then you can just keep that jar of myc and use that for a LONG time, 100's of innoculations. Liquid cultures are easier to deal with then agar as well, no messing with plates and pouring and solidifying and cutting wedges and such. I used to use plates that way but now I've moved on.
Also a benifit of starting with myc (be it plate or liquid) it cuts colonization time ALOT because you dont have to wait for spores to germinate. Grains go from 13 days colonization time with spores to 6-7 with myc.
And I still do use agar but for isolation purposes. Thats the real reason agar is used as grain to grain transfers (just scoop out a piece of grain into a new jar) are so easy and liquid cultures (search karo tek, honeywater tek, malt can be substituted along with a number of other things) are as well. What I mean by isolation is two things. If you have a contamed syringe you can take a chunk of white stuff from a contamed jar and throw it on agar and get it away from the contams. I dont know if this will work with every mold but I was getting green and pinheads (both grain loving molds, not sugar loving which is what MEA is, sugar that is) and if I transfered myc to new grain jars the spores would germinate. Then I threw a peice on a plate and (as best as I understand) because they didnt have the food they liked they didnt germinate but the white stuff grew. I then used that to make grain jars and they are ok finally. I couldnt have done that without agar.
Another thing is even with a clean syringe you have what is called a multispore. It's just all random spores taken from a single cap. Some spores are good and some arent so good. You want to get only the strong to survive though, so you want to find the strongest spore. If you squirt spores on agar you'll notice that growth starts in different places and some will be fuzzy but some will be very ropey and quick. Thats the good stuff you want. You then transfer only that peice to a new plate then that plate will grow out QUICKLY and look beautiful. You can see what I mean if you do plates when you do a multispore, the plate doesn't always even finish but the one that you took the good peice and put it on will finish very fast. Then use every bit of that plate and put some wedges into some jars and put one wedge into a liquid culture. Now you have a bunch of jars (can do about 10 plus the liquid culture off one plate) and a liquid culture all using very rhizmiphoric mycelium that will colonize very quickly and supposedly give you better fruits. This isolation is not needed and multispores work just fine, you could just inject some spores into the karo water and that would be multispore but it would grow and fairly quick in your jars (compared to starting jars with spores) and work just fine.
Hope this helps. Good luck.
^^^what he said
 sure helped me. thanks scatmanrav
--------------------
buh
|
SCIOpenEyedDream
DillusionalDreamer
Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Western Europe
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
|
|
How long with the liquid myc solution stay good in the fridge? Also, how much malt to how much water? Trying to see how far I can strecth a single syringe  The tek I found said 1 cup water and 1 tablespoon malt extract. Doesn't seem like that would make a ton of syringes, but I'm not sure. Just looking for proven methods to stecth 1 spore syringe to a ton of jars.
--------------------
Everything I say on this board is a lie.
Eat more string cheese. It's good for you.
|
hyphae
born to grow
Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 6,228
Loc: the rain forests
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
|
|
Spore syringes will out last myc. syringes big time and agar plates as well because spores are natures way of survival hands down! So it all depends on how long ya want to store it. BTW myc may still look just fine after 2yrs. if stored properly but if it's metabolic activity hasn't been slowed down then senescing will occur. All that is needed are a few grains of myc covered rye stored under distilled water if storing for very long periods (5+ years) although I've had a spore syringe put out healthy growth after being refrigerated for over 6yrs.  GL and Welcome SCI
|
scatmanrav
Brainy Smurf
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,483
Loc:
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
|
Re: Agar ;) [Re: hyphae]
#3065201 - 08/29/04 01:17 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I think liquid myc will last serveral months..which isnt to bad, then when your out you just throw some more spores that you took over that several months into a new jar. I dont plan on using mine past 3 months (maybe less, we'll see) because I just dont see the need. As you said you want to stretch the syringe which implies doing a bunch at once right now, not really long term storage. For long term I think spores are absolutly the way to go. Just take a few spore prints and make a few syringes then throw them in the fridge as well. Then any time you want to start a new my cculture go to your spore syringe and make a new one. As long as you have SOMETHING of the mushroom left you only need 1 spore syringe and you can make it last. You can take a peice of a mushroom (fresh) or a peice of myc (just one little grain) or a single cc of spores then you can grow more from there. People should never have to buy more then one spore print/syringe of any one strain..
|
SCIOpenEyedDream
DillusionalDreamer
Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Western Europe
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
|
|
Just checking some stuff out to see if it works...
1- Everything I've heard about spore prints say to store them in a cool, dark, and draft free location. The fridge is no good though? I assume if it was better for them in there some tek would say so... but none do. Yet syringes and everything else go in there, heh.
2- How much colonized grain would I have to put on an agar tray to make it colonize? Could I just put 1 piece of grain? That would be nuts... when I case I could just take a piece of the grain out of the casing, put in an agar tray, let it grow, and make like 12 more jars from that... assuming this would work.
3- The cardboard tek (http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/25944)... anyone just as happy with the results from this as they are from regular agar? Also... could I just keep the cardboard in a canning jar?
4- Lastly, this tek for shroom water (http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/7943). Any success with this?
Thanks in advance guys. I always just bought new syringes but that gets expensive... and it sucks to buy the same strain twice. Since I know I'm asking a lot I'll slow down on the questions a bit and dedicate a week or so to answering them (or at least the few I can) after this post is done
--------------------
Everything I say on this board is a lie.
Eat more string cheese. It's good for you.
|
fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
|
|
Study some guides and teks. There are tons of agar guides out there.
If you want a reference for agar recipes, check this out...
FastFred's Media Cookbook (v0.97) Now 60 Recipes, Indexed!
-FF
|
scatmanrav
Brainy Smurf
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,483
Loc:
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
|
Re: Agar ;) [Re: fastfred]
#3069829 - 08/30/04 03:33 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
1- Everything I've heard about spore prints say to store them in a cool, dark, and draft free location. The fridge is no good though? I assume if it was better for them in there some tek would say so... but none do. Yet syringes and everything else go in there, heh.
>cool, dark, draft free....sounds like a fridge to me myc stuff goes in there to stop growth. It goes into a kind of vegitative state and just stays that way (for a while) until you need it.
2- How much colonized grain would I have to put on an agar tray to make it colonize? Could I just put 1 piece of grain? That would be nuts... when I case I could just take a piece of the grain out of the casing, put in an agar tray, let it grow, and make like 12 more jars from that... assuming this would work.
>One piece of grain is fine. I've done it before when trying to isolate a strain from contams. Otherwise its not really worth it though. You can just skip the agar and take half a jar of grain and throw it in 12 more jars (just a small spoon per jar, the more you put in the quicker it will colonize though). I use one jar to do about 24 new ones. The mycelium will (apparently) degrade after a number of transfers. I havn't experienced this but I try to not go past 3 or 4 transfers of the same myc. This is why liquid cultures work well...you're using the same original myc that you grew not myc that grew then transfered then continued to grow ect for 4 jars worth. Kinda gets tired I guess. Like I said, this is only what the scientist type folk tell me.
3- The cardboard tek (http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/25944)... anyone just as happy with the results from this as they are from regular agar? Also... could I just keep the cardboard in a canning jar?
I think cubies like agar better though I've heard of people using this tek for cubies just fine. I dont think it would work quite as good though seems more likly to contam and just sloppy when you can just do a liquid tek and not worry about the agar.
4- Lastly, this tek for shroom water (http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/7943). Any success with this?
This would work but if you do that with karo water instead of just plain water you'll have a culture that I would think would last longer.
|
hyphae
born to grow
Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 6,228
Loc: the rain forests
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
|
|
Cooler temps slow metabolic activity thats why it works best myc and the cooler temps probably aid in keeping the spores from germinating but spores are natures storehouse they have really no metabolic activity UNTIL germinated so it sure wouldn't hurt them but IMHO it's not necessary.
|
Mykey
spectraltraveler
Registered: 04/07/04
Posts: 542
|
|
The cardboard cloning tek works very very well!
The cardboard is actually pretty selective and doesnt contam very easily as long as you follow a generally clean procedure. It works well,as I said, for what it is intended. It is intended to be used when one doesnt want to mix and pour a bunch of plates right away,or for someone who doesnt have,or wish to mess with agar. It is perfect for a quick and reliable way to isolate a substrain via cloning. Once the cardboard has colonized you can then transfer pieces of the myc to fresh agar plates to greatly expand your ability to inocculate more substrate. There isnt anything wrong with the liquid teks ,but the cardboard works better and easier for isolating a good substrain. I wouldn't call it sloppy either, I would be more inclined to call it a solid and clean method that involves common materials that anyone can get their paws on.
Sorry to go on about this ,but it sounds like you have written it off and I would hate to see you miss out on a good tecnique that you can use!
See Ya,
--------------------
|
scatmanrav
Brainy Smurf
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,483
Loc:
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
|
Re: Agar ;) [Re: Mykey]
#3071420 - 08/30/04 09:51 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I shall keep that in mind...I'll have to try it out someday but I think I'd just rather use agar overall. I dont know why, maybe to make myself feel more important like a scientist or something
|
ATWAR
Connoisseur
Registered: 01/26/03
Posts: 1,640
Loc: #108768 in line...
|
 Re: Agar ;) [Re: Mykey]
#3071994 - 08/31/04 12:35 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Mykey said:
The cardboard cloning tek works very very well!
The cardboard is actually pretty selective and doesnt contam very easily as long as you follow a generally clean procedure. It works well,as I said, for what it is intended. It is intended to be used when one doesnt want to mix and pour a bunch of plates right away,or for someone who doesnt have,or wish to mess with agar. It is perfect for a quick and reliable way to isolate a substrain via cloning. Once the cardboard has colonized you can then transfer pieces of the myc to fresh agar plates to greatly expand your ability to inocculate more substrate. There isnt anything wrong with the liquid teks ,but the cardboard works better and easier for isolating a good substrain. I wouldn't call it sloppy either, I would be more inclined to call it a solid and clean method that involves common materials that anyone can get their paws on.
Sorry to go on about this ,but it sounds like you have written it off and I would hate to see you miss out on a good tecnique that you can use!
See Ya,
Indeed. Noone should dismiss this as a "poor mans agar tek" or "sloppy". The cardboard cloning technique does work very, very well. I used agar long before I tried the cardboard tek, and I was impressed with the results. If you grow a mushroom and want to try cloning, this is the tek I recommend you begin with. As Mykey said, it is also very good when you only need a single "plate" to take a clone with, and it is what I use when I need to clone a single specimen without cooking up a whole batch of agar. It saves me so much time and effort in the preparation phase. You don't even need to autoclave it, a microwave works perfectly fine... If you are just beginning your contamination risk is also much less using cardboard than typical agar recipes...
It works excellent for Ps. Cubensis. Look at the pictures in the TEK. Tell me that is not colonized agressively... Anyone who says this TEK is worthless has obviously not tried it personally, or did something wrong (its not that hard to do at all).
You can store the colonizing cardboard in any container that will maintain humidity (keep it from drying out). A jar or little gladware container will work just fine... I am also experimenting with cardboard as a culture storage medium...
It is not however, designed to be used as a spore germination medium (to get more from your syringes). For this I would recommend a liquid culture technique...
--------------------
To give is to live...
|
scatmanrav
Brainy Smurf
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,483
Loc:
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
|
Re: Agar ;) [Re: ATWAR]
#3074807 - 08/31/04 04:27 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Dang someone says "I DONT THINK cardboard would work quite as well as agar" and people get all up in a huff. I didnt say the "TEK was worthless" and I thought I made it clear that I hadnt tried it. I wanted to mainly post on the other numbers but just gave a quick opinion on what I thought of the TEK from what I heard and in no way was misleading that I was an expert on it or discouraged the use of it. Sheesh.
Now if you'll all excuse me I'm going to go find some cardboard..
|
ATWAR
Connoisseur
Registered: 01/26/03
Posts: 1,640
Loc: #108768 in line...
|
|
I believe both of us were simply clearing it up a bit, as you basically said it was sloppy and more likely to contam. That is wrong...
Nobody was "all up in a huff"... I was simply providing the correct information on the subject...
--------------------
To give is to live...
|
scatmanrav
Brainy Smurf
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,483
Loc:
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
|
Re: Agar ;) [Re: ATWAR]
#3074982 - 08/31/04 05:23 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I know but I did say "seems more likly to contam and just sloppy", key word being seems. I just felt cardboard might house something hidden. Then you said "to call the tek worthless" as if I did. I also wanted to clarify my position as to not having passed judgment, just that I was giving my first impressions. I have no problem with people correcting me if I am incorrect (which it seems I was as I fully take both of your statments to heart as I know you both are quite knowledgeable) but when you said "anyone who calls this tek worthless" I felt that was directed at me and wanted to clarify that I wasnt implying it was worthless only that agar felt more "scientific" (for lack of a better word) to me.
|
ATWAR
Connoisseur
Registered: 01/26/03
Posts: 1,640
Loc: #108768 in line...
|
|
Quote:
scatmanrav said:
when you said "anyone who calls this tek worthless" I felt that was directed at me
Not at all. It was a general statement not directed at anyone in particular...
No harm, no foul... I was skeptical at first until I tried it too...
Give it a try, but watch the saturation levels...
Moist, but not soaking wet.
--------------------
To give is to live...
|
|
Threaded
Previous
Index
Next
Edit 
Reply 
lordoftheshroomz
patchwork
1 2 all )
TODAY
psilocybeen
Psilocybeingzz
crippledavenger
IGnosticAbhorI
agar