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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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The Deepest Thoughts
    #3060591 - 08/28/04 02:25 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

are always simple and easily grasped by anyone. To overcomplicate an issue and cloak it in complex analogies or big words does it no justice. The deepest issues are always K.I.S.S. simple.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Deepest Thoughts [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3060786 - 08/28/04 03:30 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

deep ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dp)
adj. deep?er, deep?est

a. Difficult to penetrate or understand; recondite: a deep metaphysical theory.
b. Of a mysterious or obscure nature: a deep secret; ancient and deep tribal rites.


sim?ple ( P ) Pronunciation Key (smpl)
adj. sim?pler, sim?plest

Not involved or complicated; easy: a simple task.



Your post makes no sense unless we throw away commonly held definitions of words which would make communication impossible.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The Deepest Thoughts [Re: Swami]
    #3060863 - 08/28/04 04:09 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

A rephrasing is in order then. For the less abstract minded folk among us the official rephrasing for the day is:

The most meaningful thoughts and ideas are so fundemental(defined as: Of or relating to the foundation or base; elementary) as to be simple to grasp.

For the record MY PHRASING WAS MEANT TO POSE A PARADOX (Defined as: A seemingly contradictory statement that may nonetheless be true) IN ORDER TO PROVOKE THOUGHT WHILE MAKING MY POINT. In this fashion my phrasing made perfect sense, thus I do not concur with your hasty opinion.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Deepest Thoughts [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3061137 - 08/28/04 06:48 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I undestand this very good. The sounds of profanity always tried to break my neck (the 'deeper' the reasoning goes) :wink:

Yes, true !


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: The Deepest Thoughts [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3061354 - 08/28/04 10:31 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I beg to differ :P

Analogies, Zen koans, symbolism, all of that stuff is beautiful. Its thought art. When you really get what was being said it makes something in your brain *click* and it feels good. Then you smile and remember.

I believe analogy's and symbolism are sometimes the best mediums when it goes to convey a deep thought. If it were always literal certain parts of the thought are misinterpretted and the message isnt being sent. Much like art. You can read a report on Salvador Dali, or you can visit his museum and actually see the real link.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: The Deepest Thoughts [Re: psyka]
    #3061362 - 08/28/04 10:38 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with what you're saying...

Quote:

psyka said:
If it were always literal certain parts of the thought are misinterpretted and the message isnt being sent.




The real mistake lies, ironically, in believing that using the english language is an act of being "literal". In actuality, what we deem literal language is more likely to be misinterpretted by someone who is fluent in both English and metaphorical thinking. (In my humble opinion.)


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Offlinedeff
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Re: The Deepest Thoughts [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3061449 - 08/28/04 11:51 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

All sentences are analogies. All words are symbols.

But yes, if you travel backwards to the intial experienced "thought" (not the voice in your head, but the pre-emptive push) you find that it is both undescribable (obviously - using words only encrypts it) and also, as you said, simple. Infact, they are all very similar, and it is only through our use of symbolism for communication that this thought becomes lost.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: The Deepest Thoughts [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3061536 - 08/28/04 12:36 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Metaphors are wonderful to use as well. Jesus was brilliant with them.

They can take on several meanings as you come to understand them more deeply, hense, the teacher keeps pace with the student through them and they can serve one for a long time throughout their personal growth.

Look at his, 'don't throw your pearls to the swine or they will trample upon them"

A simple mind will take it literally and keep their valuable jewelery away from the pig pen.


A materialistic mind will take it to mean that one should not share their material wealth with the unappreciative or they will squander it and it would be wasteful.

A responcible intellect will take it to mean not to give your valuable knowledge to those who have no ability to take it and make something useful of it but will rather destroy with it.

A feeling type will take it to mean not to give of your heart to those who do not feel or they will trample on your feelings.

A Mystic will take it to mean that if you use metaphors, you can give of your wisdom to all and the interpretation of the individual will always have valued meaning to them. A Mystic who uses metaphors can give their pearlls to the swine in this way and not have them trampled on.

Ahahahahahaha he is so brilliant!

I think a great metaphor can convey simple to complex lessons all in one thereby reaching everyone comensurate with their own ability to relate and understand meaning from the surface to great depths.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The Deepest Thoughts [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3063705 - 08/29/04 12:31 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"A simple mind will take it literally and keep their valuable jewelery away from the pig pen."

Any normal (non-mentally handicapped) person can see the meaning of this swine metaphor. On the contrary an overly complex metaphor can obscure meaning. Any good teacher uses clever metaphors to help the student understand more quickly. This is a process meant to make the learning process easier by engaging the imagination. The idea that "enlightenment" is only for the select few is an exercise in self importance.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: The Deepest Thoughts [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3063779 - 08/29/04 12:56 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Ask people of different ages and walks of life what this means to them and see how many different answers you get. My point was about how metaphors are great at reaching people with meaning relative to them.
This sure beats having anothers meaning shoved down your throat that has no relavence or use to you simple or complicated. A metaphor can have a simple meaning or one as complex as you want to make it. They are multilayered and thats why i like them. You can reach a larger audience.

I agree with your orginal post that the greatests truths are found in simplicity. Like "evil does not exist".  But that is meaningless and irrelevant to someone being haunted by demons.

I don't even beleive in anything called "enlightenment". I think THAT is only for the select few in an exercise of gaining self importance.

I'd call myself in the dark before enlightened any day and i would prefer to be because I like finding my way out of dark places. I throw myself into them on purpose. This is all a game to me. Whats left to do when you become "enlightened"?

I liked the reasons you added to how and why good teachers use metaphors.

I didn't bring up metaphors to disagree with your post. I brought them up to expand upon how a metaphor can be used to achieve simplistic understandings to some and more in depth ones to others who are looking for that.

Some people like simple and some like depth as evidenced by the replies here.  :wink:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The Deepest Thoughts [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3063795 - 08/29/04 01:02 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"I don't even beleive in anything called "enlightenment""

I agree...I was being sarcastic. I used to like the long way around until I found that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Deepest Thoughts [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3064258 - 08/29/04 03:52 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

A simple mind will take it literally and keep their valuable jewelery away from the pig pen.

Should I take this line literally?

The author of this thread and those who agree with the "beauty of metaphor", tells us that simple = deep; so in the spirit of this confusing double-speak, I am not sure what you are saying.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: The Deepest Thoughts [Re: Swami]
    #3064518 - 08/29/04 09:43 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

There is a book out to help writers reach a broader audience. Based on their research, they advised writers to write as if they were addressing the comprehension ability of a 12 year old. 

I will have to remember that when I write here. :wink:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: The Deepest Thoughts [Re: Swami]
    #3064547 - 08/29/04 10:25 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I was a bully in grade school and am not proud of it now. I remember saying things to make people look stupid to make them afraid to speak. Eventually my voice was the only one heard and allowed for me to rule the play yard. It's easy to do. It only takes a mean spirit.

From hindsight, it was a hollow and shallow victory.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Deepest Thoughts [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3064642 - 08/29/04 11:51 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Glad you grew out of it. I, on the other hand, quietly tutored kids in science, English and math.

Philosophical discussion, as opposed to poetry and art, should attempt to have as narrow a range of interpretations as possible so that two or more people know that they are discussing the same thing.

If the deepest thoughts are always simple, then what are the simplest thoughts?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineDroz
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Re: The Deepest Thoughts [Re: Swami]
    #3064700 - 08/29/04 12:17 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Are not the deepest thoughts the ones that are more or less built with sort of a sequence of events, not just a plain ordinary thought process. But a complex one, and aren't they very hard for other to understand since it's very hard to explain those deepest thoughts?


--------------------
Evolution of Time.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Deepest Thoughts [Re: Droz]
    #3064726 - 08/29/04 12:33 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

* DEEP THOUGHTS * by Jack Handy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.

Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis.

Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words - "mank" and "ind". What do these words mean ? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.

We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me.

If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."

I believe in making the world safe for our children, but not our children's children, because I don't think children should be having sex.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Deepest Thoughts [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3065125 - 08/29/04 03:01 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:...I'd call myself in the dark before enlightened any day and i would prefer to be because I like finding my way out of dark places. I throw myself into them on purpose. This is all a game to me. Whats left to do when you become "enlightened"?...



If I may (that's not difficult):
Surely to light up these places, so that nobody has to strive through darkness there anymore.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Deepest Thoughts [Re: Swami]
    #3065167 - 08/29/04 03:10 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
If the deepest thoughts are always simple, then what are the simplest thoughts?



As so often, you overgeneralize. I think, nobody said that they are always simple, they tend to be simple. So if you take this as a rule, there is no rule without confirming exceptions. I don't know, if in english exists a similar saying: 'The exception confirms the rule'.
But better ask about the 'flat' thoughts ! They tend to be complex in a very simple way :grin:.
And for methaphors: They are simple, in a complex way.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Deepest Thoughts [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #3065539 - 08/29/04 04:53 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

? This contextual quagmire is getting ever deeper...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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