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OfflineSpringbok
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Registered: 09/16/99
Posts: 82
Loc: Ehime, Japan
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re:
    #305970 - 04/30/01 06:34 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

You are talking about things which happened a hundred years or more, when you refer to the genocide of Native Americans. In the present day, in 2001, the Chinese government continues to exceed the worse excesses of Britain, France, USA, and Russia during the height of their respective power.

Comparing the Iran Contra scandel to the invasion of Tibet and the subsequent starvation and execution of tens of millions of people is absurd.

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"What does it all mean, Mr. Natural..?"
- Art Crumb


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"What does it all mean, Mr. Natural..?"
- Art Crumb


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OfflineWeardo
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Registered: 04/26/01
Posts: 29
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: [Re: Springbok]
    #306375 - 05/01/01 01:38 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I'll assume this is a reply to me.

The invasion of Tibet was 50 years ago, in another 50 years will it be ok? It works for America. If 50 years ago Native Americans demanded their land back, and China sneered at us for letting our native inhabitants starve and suffer 50 years prior, would we even care? 50 years ago (and less) blacks didn't have rights, entire groups of innocent people were blacklisted or jailed for being a communist by McArthy, we had puppet governments all over the 3rd world, and this is about the time period we overthrew Mossadegh in Iran and propped up a corrupt shah, which is the main reason the Middle East hates America. The NY Times just released the CIA documents showing exactly what we did to take over their government, it's on their website. I still don't understand the argument that since what they do is worse and on a larger scale, that what we do is ok and we can be the judge of them. Quantity hardly matters in a qualitative argument, and the US has never repected the freedom and sovereignty of other countries.

I was referring to the entire Contra war we waged on Nicaragua in the 1980's, and how if China did to Taiwan exactly the same thing we did to Nicaragua and other countries, we'd be screaming for the head of Zemin. Nothing to do with the scandal or Tibet. The US has subverted and destroyed democracy in more countries RECENTLY than China ever will.

___________
Booyah, grandma....booyah!


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OfflineSpringbok
enthusiast
Registered: 09/16/99
Posts: 82
Loc: Ehime, Japan
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: [Re: Weardo]
    #307960 - 05/02/01 10:50 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

In 1941, the US still denied blacks the right to vote. Does this mean we should have ignored Adolf Hitler because we were still flawed as a nation?

When making these decisions, we must keep everything relative. Sure, the US is guilty. But when was that last time the US murdered tens of millions of human beings? The last time the Chinese government did this was the 1960's and early 1970's. To this day, the continue to execute pacifist Falon Gong members, and displace the native population of Tibet. At the very least, do you not find it a bit rediculous that a fascist government is trying to take over a democratic government? The last time this happened was 1939, when Nazi Germany had "reestablished" its authority over most of western Europe -- after simply claiming to desire its ethnic German regions of the Czech Republic, Poland, France, and Austria. China claims it only wants "its" ethnic regions in Formosa, but we know better. After all, the Muslims and Tibetians to the far west have nothing in common with 1.25 billion Chinese -- but they are outnumbered so they are doomed to live under Mandarin boots.

---------------------------------------------
"What does it all mean, Mr. Natural..?"
- Art Crumb


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---------------------------------------------
"What does it all mean, Mr. Natural..?"
- Art Crumb


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Offlinehatter
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Registered: 03/27/01
Posts: 501
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: [Re: Springbok]
    #308025 - 05/02/01 11:40 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Not only did we take the Indians land, we for all intents and purposes put them in concentration camps and are responsible for trading alcohol in exchange for their goods, whose ramifications still effect indians to this day.

The Chinese definitely are not saints, but we aren't either! We (our government) just have the uncanny ability to convince the public that even the recent past is the product of different people and 'different times'...

Just a quick observation: If the Chinese were to fly a spy plane off the coast of the U.S., we would be up in arms! But apparently since we are the *last great superpower*, it is ok for us to dictate terms for the entire world and, in effect, become the world police? I got news for ya, we had that same strategy 30-35 years ago, and it was called Vietnam...It seems like we are ready for war just as long as it is not played out on our own soil...

Nostradamus becomes a scarier individual on a daily basis....

How is a raven like a writing desk?

Edited by hatter on 05/02/01 11:42 PM.



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How is a raven like a writing desk?

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InvisibleAgent Cooper
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Registered: 08/04/00
Posts: 210
Loc: right behind you
Re: [Re: Springbok]
    #308429 - 05/03/01 12:52 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

The US has installed, armed, and supported blood-thirsty puppet regimes in Indonesia, Guatemala, El Salvador, East Timor (the largest genocide per-capita since the Holocaust), Columbia, Zaire, Chile, etc. If you actually look into the foreign policy that is ignored by General Electric, errr, I mean the mass media outlets, you will discover just how much terror the United States has unleashed on the rest of the world. We have routinely sabotaged many peace-loving, democratic nations and have created puppet dictators to do our economic bidding. We train Latin American terror squads on the "arts" of torture, assassination, harassment, and kidnapping so in order to keep the common people in these nations from actually rising up and changing these U.S.-imposed/U.S.-supported conditions. And on the home front, our news outlets are filtered for controversial material such as this and replaced with commericals and half-stories.

War with China? I bet General Electric would like that - more jet engines to build.


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OfflineSpringbok
enthusiast
Registered: 09/16/99
Posts: 82
Loc: Ehime, Japan
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: [Re: Agent Cooper]
    #309498 - 05/04/01 06:52 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

The Chinese don't need spy planes. They have hundreds of corporate and government spies running around the country...

Also, the Native American genocide occurred well over a hundred years ago. During that time, there was not a nation on this planet without blood on its hands. Keep the subject relevant to 2001...

---------------------------------------------
"What does it all mean, Mr. Natural..?"
- Art Crumb


--------------------
---------------------------------------------
"What does it all mean, Mr. Natural..?"
- Art Crumb


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Offlinejihead
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Registered: 06/09/00
Posts: 399
Last seen: 10 years, 4 days
Re: [Re: Springbok]
    #311488 - 05/07/01 06:13 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

right, because after a hundred years the dead magically resurrect and all is absolved...



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OfflineSpringbok
enthusiast
Registered: 09/16/99
Posts: 82
Loc: Ehime, Japan
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: [Re: jihead]
    #313235 - 05/09/01 05:16 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

So, by your rational, we should be nit-picking on what the Huns did to the Czecks in 905 AD and what the Romans did to the Spaniards, what the Zulus did to the Xhosa, what the Cherokee did to their neighbors, what the Vietnamese did to the Laotians five hundred years ago, etc..?

Today, in 2001, a certain situation exists. This is the only thing which is relavent to policymakers right now. If we sit down and bitch about the past, then Europeans could still be pissed off at the Chinese/Mongols for invading their continent a thousand years ago..!

---------------------------------------------
"What does it all mean, Mr. Natural..?"
- Art Crumb


--------------------
---------------------------------------------
"What does it all mean, Mr. Natural..?"
- Art Crumb


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OfflineMOoKie
member
Registered: 04/06/01
Posts: 119
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
Re: [Re: Springbok]
    #313700 - 05/10/01 04:07 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

From what I get out of this....because our government killed 30,000 Indians over a hundred years ago, today we should ignore threats from China. Whaaaaat????? If you all hate living in America SO much, wait until the Chinese come and kill you for the fact you live here. That'd be ironic.

If you want to talk about government atrocities, try these on for size:

North Korean Dictatator Kim Il Sung was responsible for 1.7 million deaths.

Soviet Communists killed 62 million of their own people and foreign subjects. Stalin accounting for 43 million of that number.

Pol Pot and the Khmer-Rouge killed about two million people, 1/3 of Cambodia's population.

Millions more people were murdered by communist regimes in Afghanistan, Albania, Bulgaria, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, Ethiopia, East Germany, Hungary, Laos, Mongolia, Mozambique, Nicaragua, Poland, Romania, Vietnam, and Yugoslavia. Author Rudolf Rummel estimates about 110 million.

Mexico murdered about a million poor Indians and peasants.

After World War II, the Polish government expelled ethnic Germans, murdering about a million.

Japanese militarists murdered about 6 million Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and others during World War II.

Chiang Kai-shek's Nationalist Chinese murdered nearly 10 million people between 1928 and 1949.

Further back in history:

Mongols slaughtered about 30 million Arabs, Chinese, Persians, Russians, and others.

Rudolpf Rummel: "China has been bathed in blood. During the eight years [221-207 B.C.] that the Qin dynasty struggled for supremacy, the estimated population of China dropped from 20 million to 10 million. In the Three Kingdom period [222-589 A.D.] the population dropped from something like 50 million to about 7 million. After the Ming emperor Chang Hsien-chung conquered Szechwan province, he ordered scholars, merchants, officials, wives, and concubines murdered. He had their feet cut off and gathered into huge piles. In 1681, following the Triad Rebellion, an estimated 700,000 people were executed in one province alone. The great peace of the nineteenth century didn't touch China where, during the 15-year Teiping Rebellion, perhaps 600 cities were reportedly ruined, and as many as 40 million people were killed. Moslem rebellions in Yunnan province resulted in some 5 million deaths.

There were atrocities in Western Europe. Jews were blamed for the Black Death of 1347-1352, and thousands were slaughtered. The Spanish Inquisition killed between 100,000 and 200,000 people who were branded "heretics." Fanatical Protestants killed perhaps 100,000 women as "witches" during the Reformation. On August 24, 1572-St. Bartholomew's Day - the French King Charles IX or his officials ordered assaults on French Calvinists, and an estimated 35,000 were killed. During the Thirty Years War [1618-1648], perhaps 7.5 million people were killed. An estimated 137,000 people were murdered during the French Revolution and the ensuing civil war. "

Here's some more interesting facts:

Rudolph Rummel: "I was shocked to find that governments kill people to fill a quota. For instance, in the Soviet Union under Stalin and China under Mao, the government would set execution quotas. They would decree that perhaps 5 percent of the people are counterrevolutionaries, so kill 5 percent of the people. Writers, entrepreneurs, you name it - kill 5 percent. In retrospect, I can see that murder by quota was the natural thing for these regimes to do, because they had central planners direct production of iron, steel, wheat, pigs, and almost everything else by quota."

Rudolph Rummel's finding's on Peace, and Democracy:

"First, long-established democracies don't wage war on each other, and they rarely commit other kinds of violence against each other, either.

Second, the more democratic two countries are, the less likely they will go to war against each other.

Third, the more democratic a country is, the lower the level of violence when there's a conflict with another country.

Fourth, the more democratic a country, the less likely it will have domestic political violence.

Fifth, the bottom line: democratic freedom is a method of nonviolence.

"For example, if one counts as a war any conflict in which 1,000 or more people were killed since 1816, the end of the Napoleonic wars, then there were 33 wars involving 353 pairs of nations - such as Germany versus the Soviet Union. None were between two democracies. There were 155 pairs involving a democracy versus a non-democracy and 198 pairings of two non-democracies."

For all the flaws America has, it's sort of good we have it, huh?

Rudolph Rummel is the author of a book entitled: "Death by Government". The totals are NOT counting deaths in combat in war.





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"If it ain't one thing, then it's the other. Any cause that crosses your path; your heart bleeds for anyone's brother. I've got to tell you you're a pain in the ass."      Oingo Boingo!


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InvisibleAgent Cooper
veteran

Registered: 08/04/00
Posts: 210
Loc: right behind you
Re: [Re: MOoKie]
    #314060 - 05/10/01 04:31 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Funny how you have turned a blind eye to the major atrocities committed by the United States or other capitalist regimes (100 million deaths in democratic capitalist India, etc.)

Yes, Communism (which, by the way, has been nothing more than State Capitalism) has brought much terror to the world - but do not dwell on this fact so much as to ignore our own mass of crimes.

Also interesting is the fact that you have mentioned Cambodia and the Khmer Rouge. During this slaughter, the United States supported Pol Pot and his coalition of murderers. We even punished Vietnam via extremely harsh sanctions for getting rid of Pol Pot. On top of that, the United States gave the thumbs up to a Chinese invasion of Vietnam to teach them a lesson for interferring with the Khmer Rouge.

Do not forget how the U.S. has armed to the teeth some of most bloody dictators in the world and supported massive genocides and other atrocities. Look into the history of Indonesia and East Timor and how we supported/armed dictorial regimes which lead to the greatest instance of genocide per capita since the Holocaust. Some of these death regimes include the Somoza regime in Nicaragua, the Pinochet government of Chile, Mobutu, Idi Amin, apartheid South Africa, and the Guatemala and Argentinian terror states.

Don't get me wrong: the Chinese are hardly saints, but neither are we. I could bring up statistics and examples of our dirty work that would make you cringe.

You complain that the example of our genocide of the Native Americans is outdated. So, let's look at contemporary times.

Currently, 6 million children die each year in Latin America, Asia, and Africa due to IMF/World Bank imposed Structural Adjustment policies (and that's just the children). These organizations are nothing more than arms of the United States and our country's real rulers in Wall Street. That's a Holocaust every year for the past 50+ years - all so the rich can get richer. The IMF/World Bank has also displaced tens of millions of people and destroyed sustainable agriculture, all the while erasing the culture of these people.

Look at how many people have starved to death and died from curable diseases in Iraq. We are punishing the people via economic sanctions for their leader who we created, armed, and supported in the first place. I believe the number is somewhere near 3 million dead.

We financially support and arm the racist state of Israel who is guilty of ethnic cleansing and terrorizing the populations of occupied Palestinian lands.

By Rudolph Rummell's description of a democratic state, we are anything but "democratic" since we wage war all the time - direct terror and economic terror. And to liken the United States to being nonviolent is quite ignorant of reality and well-documented instances of our aggression. We have routinely "monkeywrenched" peace-loving, democratic nations, and replaced them with murderous dictators. Why? ($) And then on top of that, we assassinate and terrorize those who rise up and try to change these horrible conditions. How "democratic" is that? And than in the States, the corporate-owned & run media outlets filter out these stories. How "democratic" is that?

Is China a real threat? I think so. Why? Because our leaders want it that way - we are manufacturing the conditions for another Cold War/arms race because it is profitable for the elite. Our fully-conscience actions have stirred anti-American sentiment in Communist China in order to provoke them. We are trying to pick a fight and take advantage of the fact that they will not submit to U.S. hegemonic pretensions. Please dont be foolish and play into their game.


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OfflineJimi Thing
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Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 34
Loc: Home - MD; School - PA
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Re: [Re: MOoKie]
    #314065 - 05/10/01 04:38 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

We no longer need nature to keep our populations in check, we have ourselves.

"You kill one it's a tragedy. You kill one million it's a statistic." -- Joseph Stalin

Jizzout


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