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OfflineFrog
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Time
    #3042538 - 08/24/04 03:34 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I don't have time to go read up on the subject at present, so I'm hoping you peoples here will enlighten me on the subject of time.

I recently watched a special on Steven Hawkings and his theories and other theories. One of the subjects that came up was that of time and how it is an invention of man. From my memory of watching the program, time does not exist? It is an invention of man?

I imagine that time does not exist in the spiritual realm, but this would mean that everything is happening all at once, wouldn't it?

I also think about how in the bible it says that God is, was and has always been. Does this mean that there is no time where God is?

If there is no such thing as "time", does this mean that everything would be happening all at once? If there is no such thing as time, how do you separate events from one another?

I don't understand how time cannot exist. I understand that we are spiritual beings in human bodies and are defined by boundaries, not only in our beings but in our world and in our universe. I understand that we had to create the concept of time in order to keep chaos at bay.

But if we are in the spiritual world, assuming that one exists, does time not exist? What does one use to measure the space between the occurence of events, if not time?


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleAbstractHarmonix
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Re: Time [Re: Frog]
    #3042566 - 08/24/04 03:44 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Time is created by man, it is just classification for what is going on. this is why there are glitches in time, like daylight savings time, and leap year, etc. Now there are cycles and generations, seasons, this is what really defines time.

time exists in the realities of those who allow it to rule them.

Or something like that, it's almost 4 in the morning.
Dont take anything I say TOO seriously!


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A plethora of music aspirations control my temptations of future revelations beyond "now". The percussion, and the heart beat of my love and devotion. The rhythm goes beyond, prying into the third eye, releasing the creativity held so far inside. The melodicies, through the out of tune pianos and broken classical guitars...there lies a beauty. A beauty as prevelent as the fire inside. To release these energies is pure ecstacy, to deveop these gifts is sacred. The vocality, so pure as can be, shying away from herself, lies within me. For the underlying serenitity, this is what I live for. I plea for harmony, and nothing more. Music equals love. Creation of love leads to the procreativity of the World, and it's spirals and puddles prevailing.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Time [Re: Frog]
    #3042654 - 08/24/04 04:08 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I think perhaps Hawking meant that the passing of time doesn't exist - ie. the future is "already there" and we are just perceiving different points in it. So time doesn't move, but we move through time.

Obviously time is needed for anything to happen.

If there is a creator god, I think it would make sense if he was not subject to time, because otherwise he would have required a cause, and that doesn't make any sense.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Time [Re: Frog]
    #3042677 - 08/24/04 04:18 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Time is a probability. There is a 1/60th of a chance that you exist in this second of this minute. There is a 1/3600th chance you exist in this second of this hour. If time is just a probability, then it is linear, it is an arrow with each point taking up a finite space

But supposed time is just a human-made measurement, a space between change. Then it is change that creates linear time. Each vibrating atom sends off ripples of time, and it all follows one cosmic heartbeat, googleplexes of ripples going off all around us at the same time. If you go very fast, say the speed of light, these ripples hit us with larger intervals between, and time goes slower for us while it goes at the same speed for those on earth. These ripples all exist already, time all exists at once, it is just a matter of when it reaches us. That is why with time everything becomes more and more disordered, the first ripples came from a fresh source while the further we go on the further the source degenerates.

For example:
"Disorder increases with time because we measure time in the direction in which disorder increases. 156

The progress of the human race in understanding the universe has established a small corner of order in an increasingly disordered universe. If you remember every word in this book, your memory will have recorded about two million pieces of information: the order in your brain will have increased by about two million units. However, while you have been reading this book, you will have converted at least a thousand calories or ordered energy, in the form of food, into disordered energy, in the form of heat that you lose to the air around you by convection and sweat. This will increase the disorder of the universe by about twenty million million million million units - or about ten million million million times the increase in order in your brain - and that's if you remember everything in this book. 161"
http://www.generationterrorists.com/quotes/abhotswh.html

Written by Stephen Hawking also, but that theory is not by him


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Time [Re: Frog]
    #3042802 - 08/24/04 06:07 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

If there is no such thing as "time", does this mean that everything would be happening all at once? If there is no such thing as time, how do you separate events from one another?




By inventing time :smile:
Time can't be real, because that would mean the future was set. Suppose God's not influenced by time, then he is able to visit any place in time as he pleases. If he could visit any point in time, that would imply that the future is set and that everything in the universe is predetermined.
That would mean order rules the universe, which it doesn't.

Quote:

But if we are in the spiritual world, assuming that one exists, does time not exist? What does one use to measure the space between the occurence of events, if not time?



Depends if you're assuming we'll have senses in the spiritual plane or just awareness. If you're not bound by your senses, you're not bound by what you can perceive at any given 'time'.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Time [Re: Ravus]
    #3042810 - 08/24/04 06:17 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Time is a probability. There is a 1/60th of a chance that you exist in this second of this minute. There is a 1/3600th chance you exist in this second of this hour.



You're contaminating your definition. If time is a probability, you can't include time into the event that is probable, because that would be a probability of a probability. Besides, you're saying that there's 59/60 chance that I don't exist at this moment. I reckon that chance is higher, since the chance life exists is already 1/10^40000.

Quote:

If you go very fast, say the speed of light, these ripples hit us with larger intervals between, and time goes slower for us while it goes at the same speed for those on earth.



Following your own logic, that can't be right. If you're moving from A to B at the speed of light, the 'time ripples' coming from point A wouldn't reach you at all if they don't move faster than the speed of light, but the ones coming from B would have a higher interval.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Time [Re: Frog]
    #3042833 - 08/24/04 06:29 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I simply see time as an effect generated by our inability to percieve the whole of reality completely at any given moment. Since we can only percieve so much at once, we see the illusion of a sequence of events, from moment to moment, but infact everything is happening at once, and there are no "moment" except for 1, now, and only now (literally)


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Time [Re: ZenGecko]
    #3042987 - 08/24/04 08:00 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ZenGecko said:
I simply see time as an effect generated by our inability to percieve the whole of reality completely at any given moment. Since we can only percieve so much at once, we see the illusion of a sequence of events, from moment to moment, but infact everything is happening at once, and there are no "moment" except for 1, now, and only now (literally)




Indeed.. to take it a step further, I think that our memory systems play a part in creating the illusion of time. Think about how our short-term and long-term memory systems interact. I think time is the illusion created by our short-term memory being limited, and having to repeatedly "dump" into long-term memory and reset the cache. This seems like the kind of process that would create the illusion of a cycle occuring externally when there is not.

Does that make sense to anyone else?


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Time [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3043012 - 08/24/04 08:11 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

All I know about that specifically is that our sensory memory retains images and other sensory information for up to one second, which is what allows us to see a movie as a moving picture instead of a slideshow of 24 frames per second.

To my knowledge (which, I'll have to admit, is rather limited - psychology 101), nothing gets 'dumped' in the long term memory, one has to consciously aim to remember something (by attaching emotions to it, or by studying, for example) to move information from the short-term memory to the long-term memory.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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InvisibleClean
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Re: Time [Re: Frog]
    #3043020 - 08/24/04 08:14 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

time helps if were going to be worker drones.  must wake up in time to be at the job on time.  one could argue that a larger community or society could not function without it. 

i think our concept of "past" and "future" can be detrimental sometimes.  theres two extra time frames outside of the present that we can incessantly worry about to no avail.

there is only now  :grin:


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Time [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3043026 - 08/24/04 08:16 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

A fair bit does get dumped - if we consciously try and remember it, then it stays in our short-term memory for longer which increases its chances of going to the long-term storage. I think.


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Onlinedeff
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Re: Time [Re: Frog]
    #3043581 - 08/24/04 11:49 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Ok, I'll try to explain my view - although it would be so much easier with oral communication rather than typing, but whatever.

You are not the same "you" you believed you were last year. Nor yesterday. Not even the smallest possible perceptual interval in time. Our bodies are constantly changing, both on a cellular level (I heard that every seven years our bodies have completely changed every cell - don't know if it's true) and obviously on an atomic level (atoms are constantly in motion). More specific changes include behaviour, attitude, thoughts and ideas, physical shape, ect. Yet, our ego's (I hate the word too...) role is to expand existence in both directions. We want to associate with the person that we thought was us a year ago. Unlike normal communication (real time) which relies upon a common trend in both communicators (the best example is language for humans), association with the past relies only on a memory of it. That memory however only exists in the present - with YOU - and therefore no actual association is made. We are constantly being born and dying, yet we are blind to it.

So, this begins to explain our perceived "linear" effect of time. Person A (me five minutes ago) decides to eat a cookie. Person B (me now) is now typing this message, although his brain now is different - to include among other things, the "past" memory of the cookie eating incident (oh noes!). Thus, to "me" (person c now :wink:) events have unfolded in a linear manner up until the NOW, which itself is the only event *I* can be sure of.

Expand on this idea, and it becomes strikingly obvious how all events exist simuntaneously, and time is only yet another dimension of infinity. The past and the future are only human concepts attempting to explain their (ie- person D) existence. Where did I come from? Person C of course!

Anyways - I doubt anyone even understood my sloppy post. Well I mean, the person's post who wrote this, as I of course am reading it now just like you.


--------------------



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Time [Re: Frog]
    #3043727 - 08/24/04 12:35 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

defpanda, alan etc;
long term memory - basically that which may be recalled later (even if you don't want to) is fixed by a process that involves engram simmilarity with other experiences. Things that are alike are remembered together for likeness. Things that follow in sequence have an innate likeness to their engrams, but usually we only keep short sequences that relate to other engrams already established.
Dream time is best for getting to the deeper engram filing system.
Images from the day are compared and overlaid and sorted against a lifetime of engrams.
If you meet an engram it will probably seem a very strange thing, because it is not the experience itself, but a pattern of essential interference, like a hollogram.

Time:
besides time as a sequence in memory or in the now, we sense time using an amazing tool in our brain called the cerebellum.
the cerebellum has a layered stack of multitimer circuits that can accurately delay output from a neuron input from less than 100th of a second to over 24 hours.
the cerebellum has thousands of simultaneous inputs and outputs and at least as many delay circuits that can produce internal rythms.

because of the cerebellum we can learn to co-ordinate our limbs and even dance, we can keep time, play instruments, sing, and anticipate many sequenced things.

Most vertebrates have a distinct cerebellum and can sense and anticipate timed intervals.

In that way we did not invent time, but inherited it as a way of interacting and anticipating sequences and rythms.

however, what we anticipate is not yet here, what we sense through cerebellum does not exist. We are partly wired as alarm clocks, we tick in the now, and our "expectations" are trained to go off if (not really when) the controlling timer fires that is associated with the learned behaviour.

I am not sure it answers the question at hand, but in fact everything that can be happenning now is happenning all together, and no other thing is happenning even though we are wired to anticipate the rythms of many other possibilities some which may happen "later" which is when thecerebellum sparks so.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Time [Re: Frog]
    #3044250 - 08/24/04 02:48 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Time is a measurement. Think about how you conceptualize time, what is it based on? The relative movement of the earth in relation to the solar system is the basis of most measuring systems of time in human societies (I had to put 'most' in because of atomic clocks).


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleTODAY
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Re: Time [Re: Frog]
    #3044305 - 08/24/04 03:04 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

i was on a high dose mushroom trip where time and direction seemingly ceased to exist. it was very strange. it felt like i could get anywhere and everywhere by walking in a strait line, even the places from where i began walking in a strait line. time didn't exist. i was merely existant. i tried to think of going to sleep and waking up but none of that made sense. i was existant in a now type frame where everything was how it was. time wasn't around to make anything different. i was stuck in an eternity where only about 1.5 hours had elapsed. its hard to explain but i just wanted to mention this because of the topical similarity.


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Time [Re: Frog]
    #3044483 - 08/24/04 04:02 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

To the ego, the present moment hardly exists. Only past and future are considered important. This total reversal of the truth accounts for the fact that in the ego mode the mind is so dysfunctional. It is always concerned with keeping the past alive, because without it -- who are you?
It constantly projects itself into the future to ensure its continued survival and to seek some kind of release or fulfillment there. It says: "One day, when this, that, or the other happens, I am going to be okay, happy, at peace."
Even when the ego seems to be concerned with the present, it is not the present that it sees: It mispercieves it completely because it looks at it through the eyes of the past. Or it reduces the present to a means to an end, an end that always lies in the mind-projected future. Observe your mind and you'll see that this is how it works.

I personally know many amongst myself who have experienced deep psychedelic mushroom trips with the initial stages of the peak..when our thoughts subside, and experience a discontinuity in the mental stream -- a gap of 'no mind'.
At first the gaps will be short, a few seconds perhaps, but gradually become longer and more intense.. and when this occurs, a certain stillness and peace is felt within, from inside. We become much more alert, more awake than in the mind-identified state. We are fully present... and can feel our presence with such an intensity. Such, is the power of being immersed in the "now" rather than the past or future.

Why does the mind habitually deny or resist the Now? Because it cannot function and remain in control without time, which is past and future, so it perceives the timeless Now as threatening. Time and mind are in fact inseperable.
Imagine the world devoid of human life, inhabited only by plants and animals. Would it still have a past and future? Could we still speak of time in any meaningful way? The question "What time is it?" or "What's the date today?" -- if anybody were there to ask it -- would be quite meaningless. The oak tree or the eagle would be bemused by such a question. "What time?" they would ask. "Well, of course, it's now. The time is now. What else is there?"

Time for me to go.. :wink:

P.S.
I saw  this site recently, and it made me think of you... so I thought I'd share it.  :heart:


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (08/24/04 04:20 PM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Time [Re: Frog]
    #3044528 - 08/24/04 04:16 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

'There is nothing more constant then the moment'

Yes, time is a construct which holds space (in conjunction with gravitation) together in this universe, to be percieved and manipulated by evolved being 4D conscousness.
In godly realms, where time and matter get different meanings, you can imagine time like tiny rooms, or parts of space, fractals or splitters of glass.
It's no necessarity that then, all time is predestinated. If something in our future changes, something in a special 'room/fractal/algorythm' changes. It's an all synchronized coherently wombling structure in some dimension, we can't percieve as humans, only imagine as spirits, where space and time are only parts.
It's only 'structured' a bit different, perhaps by the 'symbols of meaning' or similar :cool:.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Time [Re: Frog]
    #3046736 - 08/25/04 01:15 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks to everyone who wrote.  I read everything.

More specifically, thank you Ravus for the link to the Stephen Hawking book on A Brief History of the Time.  That article must have been the basis for the special I saw, because the words were almost identical.  But it doesn't specifically explain time, just as the special didn't specifically explain.  Or, I'm just not getting it yet.

However some things written by others helped.

ZenGecko:  "I simply see time as an effect generated by our inability to percieve the whole of reality completely at any given moment. Since we can only percieve so much at once, we see the illusion of a sequence of events, from moment to moment, but infact everything is happening at once, and there are no "moment" except for 1, now, and only now (literally)"

Yes, and I think maybe this is what the Stephen Hawking article that ZenGecko posted might be referring to.  There are other dimensions but we can't see them.  We see three dimensions and time. 

What Evolving said helps, too.  Time is a measurement.  So of course it's a construct helpful for us here in this realm.  It probably isn't necessary in the other dimensions.  Where are the other dimensions?  Do you think they require time as a measurement?  Does time-space here in this dimension preclude us from seeing the other dimensions?

Deff, I must be dense.  I don't understand how you eating a cookie and then typing on the computer can happen all at once.  It couldn't happen all at once in this dimension because time is linear, is it not?  Could these events happen all at once in a different dimension?  This is assuming that the other dimensions don't operate as this dimension, which I presume it doesn't.  Maybe that's why we can't see them, as Hawkings suggests. 

Skorp, I appreciated everything you wrote, but what you discussed seems to have more to do with extricating ourselves from the effect of time, maybe psychologically.  I don't think I understood.  I am thinking more of time as it exists as a concept, regardless of what we think about it, or whether we should or shouldn't worry about time, or whatever.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't want to stop time, or be one with time.  I am trying to understand what time is and why it exists and why "here" and not "there".  Time exists regardless of us, doesn't it?

(And damned funny link, that!  :wink: )

So BlueCoyote, is it because we are in the dimension where time-space hold us together that we can't see the other dimensions?  Is there a conflict?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Time [Re: Frog]
    #3046818 - 08/25/04 01:35 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

This is usually when trendal jumps in..

*checks watch*


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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Onlinedeff
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Re: Time [Re: Jellric]
    #3047188 - 08/25/04 03:09 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Not all at once in our perception of "all at once". Rather I meant on an objective level, all things exist eternally and simuntaneously, and that the perceived linear effect of time is only due to the construction of our memories and overlapping timeframes. Of course I have no "proof" for this, so whatever.


--------------------



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