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InvisibleSwami
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Us and Them
    #3039938 - 08/23/04 04:20 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

A favorite pastime of humans is grouping. There are those inside the line (us) and those outside the line (them). These lines are malleable from moment to moment, but are ALWAYS there.

Take a white American and a black American who are both avowed racists. Now these guys are reporters who are kidnapped in the Middle East by Terrorists. Suddenly, they are bosom buddies as a new line has been drawn.

These same two guys are both Oakland Raiders fans and are sitting next to each other in the bleachers and smile at each other when their team wins the SuperBowl.

People do this constantly, grouping by sex, location, activity, ideology, circumstance - the list is endless. We even do this here (believers vs. skeptics).

I realize this goes back to our primal / tribal roots, but does it serve a purpose when there is no threat to the group? Can we not expand the group to include the threatening group to make a larger "us"? Can this vestigial mindset be dropped? I contend it is a reflection of spiritual immaturity and keeps us bogged down in conflict.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Us and Them [Re: Swami]
    #3040002 - 08/23/04 04:41 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Bravo!

I really enjoyed reading this!

It was inspiring, and insightfully sound! I was typing "my own version" of it in silly simons post as you were typing this.

That i s also why I did my post on skeptics wanting to expound upon my understanding of how skeptic versus believers can serve each other when each is understood and valued for its purpose and how they do not have to be in opposition of each other.

You can take any polar opposities and turn them in to contrasting compliments with a change of perception and come to a place of co-operative peace versus unproductive conflict.

two thumbs up for raising more awareness of this swami!


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Us and Them [Re: Swami]
    #3040012 - 08/23/04 04:45 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Interesting!


--------------------


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OfflineZoso_UK
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Re: Us and Them [Re: Swami]
    #3040062 - 08/23/04 05:06 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Good post. At first I thought it was about the Pink Floyd tune :P You are right but there are more reasons than spiritual immaturity. Fear plays a big part as it does in so much of the core of the human condition. People are afraid of that which is different and visible differences are the most noticeable. The media doesn't help matters much either often creating folk devils that aren't as bad as they are made out and also marginalising certain groups.


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Us and Them [Re: Swami]
    #3040104 - 08/23/04 05:27 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Excellent post on an important topic. I've written a song about it (still in the draft phase). Here's what I have so far:


Someone called as semblance (an assemblance),
Of either or,
One side of the other,
With nothing in-between,
Angry gusts of assurance,
Fevered words of obliviousness,
A misguided voice calls to choose,
Only one way against the heathens,
All others will fall,
Declarations of differences,
Assurance silences dissidence,
Unification through separation,
Assists genocide,

A mutual enemy,
Unites the distraught
Much easier to rally against,
Than to rally together,
Manifest destiny,
Manifests intolerance,

Justify the cause of death,
Through a lost cause,

Unification through interrogation,
Assists genocide,
The fight continues,
Until no ones left,
But us,
Until the next dividing line,
Is drawn,

That with which I disagree,
I dismiss as insolent,
The more boarders I see,
The more I create,


A good example I love because it's rather funny, but true, is Science Fiction movies where there is an alien invasion. Suddendly, all of humanity can unite because they recognize a greater threat. It's as if we require a challenge in order to rally ourselves together.

Desperate situations force people to find a common bond, but really, the whole thing is an illusion. It's a really good practice to challenge your own divsions and the way you see people because they will somehow defy it. It's just a shame that we can't learn the illusion as a whole and drop the games.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Us and Them [Re: Zoso_UK]
    #3040115 - 08/23/04 05:31 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup: Nice observation Swami! I agree with everyone so far.

You are right but there are more reasons than spiritual immaturity.
Well after thinking about this, i'd say that fear and all those other resons you are talking about (education, laziness, beliefs...what else?) all boil down to spiritual immaturity.
::Swami throws the dart anndddddd....BULL's EYE!:: :grin:


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Us and Them [Re: Swami]
    #3040135 - 08/23/04 05:37 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

oh, and to answer your question Swami, YES, it is possible. but how? i dunno. I could always point out the 2012 theory, but it is only a theory.
How would you think this could happen?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Us and Them [Re: Twirling]
    #3040147 - 08/23/04 05:42 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

*Swami snaps fingers and taps toes* It's got a groovey beat and I can dance to it. Good work!


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Us and Them [Re: Swami]
    #3040148 - 08/23/04 05:44 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

yes, good = us and bad = them


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Us and Them [Re: Swami]
    #3040151 - 08/23/04 05:44 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Well i hope we can do it on our own without having to "hack" in our DNA code to make our species more benign (that would defeat freedom).Maybe we should start working on cyborg bodies that would let our external image go and keep the brain? Still grouping can happen and rich will always have means for better "bodies".

Something more down to earth? Ah,personal growth towards this goal!


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Us and Them [Re: Psiloman]
    #3040185 - 08/23/04 05:56 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Rationality is the best tool I know of. It works! If Japan and the US in WWII (or whoever) both realized the enormous cost of war ahead of time, they would realize how wasteful and counter-productive it was and would have tried a more logical tact to achieve mutually beneficial goals.

Why do you think I constantly bash dogma (cultural and/or religious programming that blinds us) and emotionalism?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineZoso_UK
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Re: Us and Them [Re: Swami]
    #3040241 - 08/23/04 06:22 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

You sort of remind me of a Vulcan Swami :P Except you use the word reason instead of logic. The problem that I can see is that both are ultimately subjective and two different people could rationalise two very different solutions to an identical problem. All those ethical dilemmas that float around Western schools show this (i.e. who to throw out of a sinking boat to stop it from sinking). Its possible that the Japanese reasoned that they would win the war which is why they started it. The world would be a very different place today if Japan hadn't attacked - maybe better or maybe worse. If it were worse then it would be possible to rationalise a Japanese attack with hindsight.

However, in spite of my ramblings, I agree that it is one of the best tools at the disposal of humans. Its also the source of some of the greatest abuses (e.g. Nazi 'science').

A balance between reason and emotion must be struck.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Us and Them [Re: Zoso_UK]
    #3040268 - 08/23/04 06:30 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

(i.e. who to throw out of a sinking boat to stop it from sinking).
That's easy - the weakest!

Its also the source of some of the greatest abuses (e.g. Nazi 'science').
Appears that you are commingling rationalization (the making of excuses for unsupported beliefs) with rationality.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Us and Them [Re: Swami]
    #3040272 - 08/23/04 06:31 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Here's what I've always wondered... what causes us to form these groups to begin with? And why do we always feel the need to belong to a group?


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: Us and Them [Re: Zoso_UK]
    #3040274 - 08/23/04 06:31 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

You sort of remind me of a Vulcan

At my first Halloween party in 1968, I went as Spock. If I ever stumble across the photo, I will post it.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineZoso_UK
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Re: Us and Them [Re: Swami]
    #3040280 - 08/23/04 06:33 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

That's easy - the weakest!

Wow, sounding a little Nazi there ;P What if the weakest, if they live, finds...wait for it... a cure for cancer? Then they are the most valuable member. Sorry about the cliches :rolleyes:

Appears that you are commingling rationalization (the making of excuses for unsupported beliefs) with rationality.

Indeed, but that is what 'civilised' societies are inherently characterised by. Its hard to seperate the two. Remember the Nazi doctors invariably believed that their beliefs were supported, not for emotional reasons but what they deemed rational reasons. Reason abused can be even more dangerous than emotion sometimes because it has no potential for remorse.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Us and Them [Re: Zoso_UK]
    #3040316 - 08/23/04 06:44 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

If you and I are in a lifeboat in the middle of the ocean with room enough for one only and no chance of immediate rescue, philosophical discussion will not be the order of the day. Sorry bro, you are going over the side. :frown: Raw survival has nothing to do with Nazism.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineZoso_UK
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Re: Us and Them [Re: Zoso_UK]
    #3040325 - 08/23/04 06:45 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Lol! 1968! You lived in the era that I want to :P

Do post the photo if you can get your hands on it! I used to be majorly in to Vulcans and logic a few years ago but I felt I lost something as I tried to suppress my emotions so now I'm jst human :smile:


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OfflineZoso_UK
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Re: Us and Them [Re: Zoso_UK]
    #3040336 - 08/23/04 06:46 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

It'll be a battle between youth and... ex-youth (trying to be polite :wink:. We'll see who will prevail :|


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OfflineZoso_UK
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Re: Us and Them [Re: Zoso_UK]
    #3040347 - 08/23/04 06:48 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

And by the way raw survival has a lot to do with Nazism. Hitler's adaptation of Neitszches philosophy was very much about the idea of the survival of the fittest and returning man to evolution (which morality has removed him from).


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Amazon Shop for: Pink Floyd

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