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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Seeing things through to an end....
    #3038126 - 08/23/04 01:08 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I'm a big fan of this concept.
I don't like to walk out of a bad movie or a bad argument. I seek resolution. Period.

It doesn't happen here often. Most are content with the generic-ass-wannabe-zen response of "we'll agree to disagree" without sufficient analysis. I loathe this kind of Koombayah bullshit... and not because I don't like singing koombayah... but because I think it's more often used as a preemptive copout.

Think of it this way:
If anyone of you S&P regulars were hanging out with George W. Bush discussing, oh I don't know... WMD... and good ol' Dubya stands up and says "Well, buddy... I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on nuclear disarmament. Let's share drinking stories instead, eh?"...
How many of you would want to finish the discussion and how many of you would just cave in and agree to disagree?

My guess is not one of you would hesitate to say "No way... that's bullshit! We're finishing this discussion.... now sit the fuck down!"

Sometimes it's more painful to NOT shake things up in the ol' brainpan.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlineguri
Master of theimprobablitydrive

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 576
Loc: PNWish.
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
Re: Seeing things through to an end.... [Re: Sclorch]
    #3038152 - 08/23/04 01:22 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i think its pretty damned hard to change somebodys beliefs over the internet

that being said it can be done, depending on the person

but i do think its weak sauce to say the whole "agree to disagree bullshit, when not the whole matter has been discussed in a reasonable fasion


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Seeing things through to an end.... [Re: guri]
    #3038164 - 08/23/04 01:26 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well then... score one for guri!

Changing beliefs is one thing... challenging beliefs is all I'm looking to do.  As long as people are willing to dissect themselves in the name of truth, then I have much less to bitch about. :wink:


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineCaRnAgECaNdYS
Tool's groupie
Female User Gallery

Registered: 04/09/04
Posts: 11,505
Loc: Billy Howerdel's closet Flag
Last seen: 6 months, 28 days
Re: Seeing things through to an end.... [Re: Sclorch]
    #3038179 - 08/23/04 01:33 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I like your way of thinking. I'm challening my own beliefs right now.

A final resolution is the only way! Otherwise problems never get solved!


--------------------

The secret to being funny is to say smart things stupidly, or is it stupid things smartly? Whatever..it's not rocket surgery...or something like that.


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OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Re: Seeing things through to an end.... [Re: Sclorch]
    #3038312 - 08/23/04 02:34 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What's wrong with stating points of view and moving on? For how long should one's opinion be discussed?

There comes a point when a discussion becomes mere reiteration, and therefor boring.

I like to see resolution, too. So when people can't agree on something, when no one is changing ground, then move forward and find resolution.

But in a forum like this, where ideas are being discussed, if someone is going to stand on his beliefs and not budge, doesn't there come a point where you agree that you disagree?


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleAbstractHarmonix
Love is like a train...
Female

Registered: 07/09/04
Posts: 3,509
Loc: The Sea
Re: Seeing things through to an end.... [Re: Sclorch]
    #3038349 - 08/23/04 02:53 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The point of ideals, theologies, conspiracies, etc, is that there is no end.  That;s why the questions havent been resolved yet.  they are merely concepts, not fact.  And then what indeed represents fact eh?  Everyone creates their own reality through the installed thought processes in their own minds, through assumption and expectation, anticipation, paranoia.

Truth all lies within yourself, and that is for everyone and everything.  Truth is discloosed by the material world and ego surrounding.

Thats my cop out.

:grin:
-Ares


--------------------
A plethora of music aspirations control my temptations of future revelations beyond "now". The percussion, and the heart beat of my love and devotion. The rhythm goes beyond, prying into the third eye, releasing the creativity held so far inside. The melodicies, through the out of tune pianos and broken classical guitars...there lies a beauty. A beauty as prevelent as the fire inside. To release these energies is pure ecstacy, to deveop these gifts is sacred. The vocality, so pure as can be, shying away from herself, lies within me. For the underlying serenitity, this is what I live for. I plea for harmony, and nothing more. Music equals love. Creation of love leads to the procreativity of the World, and it's spirals and puddles prevailing.


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Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,498
Loc: oz
Re: Seeing things through to an end.... [Re: Sclorch]
    #3038481 - 08/23/04 04:00 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"I'm a big fan of this concept"

so am i, trying to get out of something and not finishing a discussion through doesn't really help any. especially when accusations are being made, and then that's it.

"I don't like to walk out of a bad movie or a bad argument. I seek resolution. Period."

hehe resolution in a bad movie?? a bad argument, now I can see that one. but arguments already don't help because when people argue, they are attacking each other instead of ideas.

"It doesn't happen here often. Most are content with the generic-ass-wannabe-zen response of "we'll agree to disagree" without sufficient analysis."

well, there's also the "I'm right and you're wrong, and that is that. I will not budge from my point of view"

"How many of you would want to finish the discussion and how many of you would just cave in and agree to disagree?"

talk it through definately


"My guess is not one of you would hesitate to say "No way... that's bullshit! We're finishing this discussion.... now sit the fuck down!""

maybe not that way of saying it, but I defiantely wouldn't want to end a discussion of that magnitude of importance.

"Sometimes it's more painful to NOT shake things up in the ol' brainpan."

yep

but then again, don't we all do or have done this from time to time?

in the ned we are all guilty of this and it is important to learn from it...no?


I do have one question for ya, can you think of one situation where dicussion will no longer advance a situation?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Seeing things through to an end.... [Re: Sclorch]
    #3038482 - 08/23/04 04:00 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I take it you are NOT a big fan of coitus interruptus...


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,498
Loc: oz
Re: Seeing things through to an end.... [Re: Swami]
    #3038485 - 08/23/04 04:01 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:lol:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Seeing things through to an end.... [Re: kaiowas]
    #3042427 - 08/24/04 03:00 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:I do have one question for ya, can you think of one situation where dicussion will no longer advance a situation?



...where discussion will no longer advance a situation...
I'm not completely sure what you're asking, can you rephrase that?
*ready to answer*


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Seeing things through to an end.... [Re: Sclorch]
    #3042465 - 08/24/04 03:11 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Maybe when the guy says, "That's my wife your f***ing and I am gonna kill you!"


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
Stranger
 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Re: Seeing things through to an end.... [Re: Sclorch]
    #3042476 - 08/24/04 03:14 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I dont see anything wrong with walking away from an unproductive sistuation.

personally, I think the people who post here are at their worst when they obsess over shit and refuse to let go...


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Seeing things through to an end.... [Re: Sclorch]
    #3042483 - 08/24/04 03:16 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

In certain situations I think you are correct. "Leave no enemy behind." is the maxim. Its use can range from the extraordinary (not turning a corner with a wounded enemy behind your position) to the mundane (clean your dishes as you go, leave no homework behind).

When it comes to debate I'm not so certain it's a phrase to rigidly follow every time. I've always regarded people who have to have the last word as lacking confidence in their position. I don't mind letting them get the last word so they can feel good about themselves. Often when your opponent is so dug in you can tell that nothing you say will make them budge one iota. To me, continuing the debate at that point will only anchor them further in ignorance. Better to back off and maybe it will occur to them later in the day (when their ego isn't on the line), "You know what? That guy had a point."


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Seeing things through to an end.... [Re: Jellric]
    #3042500 - 08/24/04 03:20 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." (Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895)

Is there a point to quoting a specific short-sighted individual? Some things actually are impossible, but this seems like a weak back-door escape hatch out of any discussion.

Don't believe in telekinesis? Lord Kelvin.

Reincarnation is bunk? Lord Kelvin.

Nothing good on TV? Lord Kelvin.

Can't get it up? You! You guessed it . Lord Kelvin. Gotta love him.  :heart:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Seeing things through to an end.... [Re: Swami]
    #3042514 - 08/24/04 03:25 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The quote is not related to my post, it's my signature.
Call me crazy, but I find it humorous.  :grin:


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Seeing things through to an end.... [Re: Jellric]
    #3042521 - 08/24/04 03:28 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I tend to be pretty good at getting to the root of the matter fairly quickly. Usually the "last word" is a moot issue if someone is merely willing to entertain an idea (not necessarily agree with it). If I can have a discussion with someone and we get to some basic fundamental assumption where we each just so happen to take the opposing view (such as strong causality vs. weak causality - the true root of the free will vs. determinism debate), then I'd be quite satisfied. But such a discussion takes a level head... and I'd know within minutes if someone was capable of going all the way to the root.

This seems to be a hard undertaking for most people... they want to jump all over the surface differences... they don't even care about digging for the root. It's like saying the root of racism is skin pigmentation... it's much deeper than that.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Seeing things through to an end.... [Re: Sclorch]
    #3042544 - 08/24/04 03:35 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It's like saying the root of racism is skin pigmentation... it's much deeper than that.

True. It is about hair texture.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Seeing things through to an end.... [Re: Swami]
    #3042546 - 08/24/04 03:36 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Damn. Beat me to it.  :lol:


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Seeing things through to an end.... [Re: Jellric]
    #3042548 - 08/24/04 03:37 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Call me crazy, but I find it humorous.

Will have to work on developing my sense of humor.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Seeing things through to an end.... [Re: Jellric]
    #3042554 - 08/24/04 03:38 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Fastest gun in the west! At least that is what my girlfriend sez...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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