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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Libertarians and DWI
    #3036393 - 08/22/04 03:44 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

This is a question to the libertarians on this board: a libertarian freind of mine says all drunk driving laws should be scrapped and drunk drivers should only be prosecuted after having injured or killed someone.

Is this a universal libertarian stance?


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: Libertarians and DWI [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3036396 - 08/22/04 03:45 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

:lol: geeez, i hope not


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Libertarians and DWI [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3036404 - 08/22/04 03:47 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

It's not mine.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflinepB0t
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Re: Libertarians and DWI [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3036410 - 08/22/04 03:50 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Nor mine.

That's like saying it's okay to run around firing guns in public as long as you don't hit anyone.


--------------------

5-MeOW-DMT

yageman said:
Dumb kids shouldnt even worry about trying salvia.

Dumb adults might want to give it a shot though.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Libertarians and DWI [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3036425 - 08/22/04 03:55 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Well, that is a little more reassuring. I guess it's just my freind I have to worry about.


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Libertarians and DWI [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3037073 - 08/22/04 07:52 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I think DUI checkpoints should be abolished. DUI laws in there current form are simply money makers.

I don't know if I could find it or not but a while back even M.A.D.D. stated that people with BAC's of .08 were not the ones causing problems. It was the people with much higher BAC's that caused major accidents and deaths.


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Libertarians and DWI [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3037089 - 08/22/04 07:56 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Nope. This is one of those gray areas in libertarian thought. But let me point out that driving is a priviledge, not a right. Therefore, it can be revoked for violating an agreement such as not drinking and driving.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Libertarians and DWI [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3037094 - 08/22/04 07:57 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

This guy also said that ALL gun laws should be abolished, and that you should be able to buy a rocket proppeled grenade launcher if you want to, and again only be held accountable AFTER killing somebody.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Libertarians and DWI [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3037099 - 08/22/04 07:58 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
This guy also said that ALL gun laws should be abolished, and that you should be able to buy a rocket proppeled grenade launcher if you want to, and again only be held accountable AFTER killing somebody.



Also not an area of complete agreement. Libertarians believe that people have the right to bear arms, not artillery.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Libertarians and DWI [Re: silversoul7]
    #3037196 - 08/22/04 08:28 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Man this board puts up some great question for discussion. :wink:

Quote:

a libertarian freind of mine says all drunk driving laws should be scrapped and drunk drivers should only be prosecuted after having injured or killed someone.




I would tend to agree with your friend. Until someones property or person has been damaged it is a "victimless crime" I am not saying that it is right or wrong to drive while intoxicated. I am saying that it is not the governments job to police what people do with there lives.

Quote:

But let me point out that driving is a privilege, not a right.




I would beg to differ on this one!

I point to case law from the US supream court

"The use of the highway for the purpose of travel and transportation is not a mere privilege, but a common fundamental right of which the public and individuals cannot rightfully be deprived." Chicago Motor Coach v. Chicago, 169 NE 221.

"The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city may prohibit or permit at will, but a common law right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Thompson v. Smith, 154 SE 579.
It could not be stated more directly or conclusively that citizens of the states have a common law right to travel, without approval or restriction (license), and that this right is protected under the U.S Constitution.

"The right to travel is a part of the liberty of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth Amendment." Kent v. Dulles, 357 US 116, 125.

"The right to travel is a well-established common right that does not owe its existence to the federal government. It is recognized by the courts as a natural right." Schactman v. Dulles 96 App DC 287, 225 F2d 938, at 941.


Quote:

This guy also said that ALL gun laws should be abolished, and that you should be able to buy a rocket  grenade launcher if you want to, and again only be held accountable AFTER killing somebody.




I would tend to agree with this as well. To quote the declaration of independents " We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." and "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

If we are all created equal than the government has no more rights that the people it governs. That being the case the government has no rights to those weapons if we the people have on rights to those weapons.


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Anonymous

Re: Libertarians and DWI [Re: Cyber]
    #3037583 - 08/22/04 10:15 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I would tend to agree with your friend. Until someones property or person has been damaged it is a "victimless crime" I am not saying that it is right or wrong to drive while intoxicated.

i disagree. recklessly placing other people in danger, even if they are not certain to be harmed, may be prohibited, and sometimes should. because people can be permanently injured or even killed by drunk drivers, there are few people, if any at all, who can fully compensate for damages caused by drunk driving. it's a little too late to start regulating something once someone's already dead.

do i have a right to throw a single bullet into a revolver, spin the cylinder, point it at you, and pull the trigger? is it only a crime if the hammer strikes the live round?


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OfflinepB0t
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Re: Libertarians and DWI [Re: ]
    #3037595 - 08/22/04 10:19 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Good point. There is no adequate compensation for a human death.


--------------------

5-MeOW-DMT

yageman said:
Dumb kids shouldnt even worry about trying salvia.

Dumb adults might want to give it a shot though.


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Libertarians and DWI [Re: pB0t]
    #3037667 - 08/22/04 10:38 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Who can adequitly and logically decide when my actions oppose current law?

If I wake up and drive a car I could potentially kill everyone I meet on the road. My 2800lb vehicle is more deadly than a 100gram .38 bullet. Who can legally decide my fate pre-incident?

I oppose certain actions and laws based solely on morality and interpretation of actions. Not based on fact or reality. I (capital I) feel that excessive alcohol and drugs shouldn't be allowed on the public highways. However I realize that these are my opinions and not federal law.

In my opinion the federal government should not be allowed the right to deny citizens common rights.


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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Anonymous

Re: Libertarians and DWI [Re: Cyber]
    #3037686 - 08/22/04 10:44 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

... and those court rulings refer to travel not driving. riding as a passenger (or walking) is different from driving a vehicle.


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Invisibleretread
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Re: Libertarians and DWI [Re: cb9fl]
    #3037704 - 08/22/04 10:48 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
In my opinion the federal government should not be allowed the right to deny citizens common rights.




If it's a common right, perhaps you could point to it in the Constitution?


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Anonymous

Re: Libertarians and DWI [Re: retread]
    #3037720 - 08/22/04 10:52 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Libertarians and DWI [Re: ]
    #3037770 - 08/22/04 11:07 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
I would tend to agree with your friend. Until someones property or person has been damaged it is a "victimless crime" I am not saying that it is right or wrong to drive while intoxicated.

i disagree. recklessly placing other people in danger, even if they are not certain to be harmed, may be prohibited, and sometimes should. because people can be permanently injured or even killed by drunk drivers, there are few people, if any at all, who can fully compensate for damages caused by drunk driving. it's a little too late to start regulating something once someone's already dead.






Hmm seems to be a flawed argument. You can replace drunk drive with just about any of the things that the MORAL Majority feels is wrong and make an argument to ban it.

Example:

Recklessly placing other people in danger, even if they are not certain to be harmed, may be prohibited, and sometimes should. Because people can be permanently injured or even killed by Drug users, there are few people, if any at all, who can fully compensate for damages caused by Drug Users. it's a little too late to start regulating something once someone's already dead.


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Libertarians and DWI [Re: ]
    #3037808 - 08/22/04 11:17 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
... and those court rulings refer to travel not driving. riding as a passenger (or walking) is different from driving a vehicle.




Quote:

"The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city may prohibit or permit at will, but a common law right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Thompson v. Smith, 154 SE 579.




So answer me this, If it is not a right then what makes an automobile different from a horse and carriage? You only have to have a license to drive a automobile. A horse and carrage does not require a license.


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Anonymous

Re: Libertarians and DWI [Re: Cyber]
    #3037818 - 08/22/04 11:18 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

i understand that it seems like a type of prior restraint, but it isn't. the simple act of placing others in danger can be an initiation of force in and of itself, even if that threat never actually materializes. people shouldn't be unwillingly placed in harm's way. that alone is an initiation of force.


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Anonymous

Re: Libertarians and DWI [Re: Cyber]
    #3037829 - 08/22/04 11:21 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

So answer me this, If it is not a right then what makes an automobile different from a horse and carriage? You only have to have a license to drive a automobile. A horse and carrage does not require a license.

again, that decision (like the others) refers to the right of travel, not driving. it says nothing about driving.


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