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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Crimes Against Nature - RFK Jr. book on Bush
    #3028494 - 08/20/04 02:32 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

full article here

Under the White House's guidance, the very agencies entrusted to protect Americans from polluters are laboring to destroy environmental laws. Or they've simply stopped enforcing them. Penalties imposed for environmental violations have plummeted under Bush. The EPA has proposed eliminating 270 enforcement staffers, which would drop staff levels to the lowest level ever. Inspections of polluting businesses have dipped fifteen percent. Criminal cases referred for federal prosecution have dropped forty percent. The EPA measures its success by the amount of pollution reduced or prevented as a result of its own actions. Last year, the EPA's two most senior career enforcement officials resigned after decades of service. They cited the administration's refusal to carry out environmental laws.

The White House has masked its attacks with euphemisms that would have embarrassed George Orwell. George W. Bush's "Healthy Forests" initiative promotes destructive logging of old-growth forests. His "Clear Skies" program, which repealed key provisions of the Clean Air Act, allows more emissions. The administration uses misleading code words such as streamlining or reforming instead of weakening, and thinning instead of logging.


I honestly don't know how anyone concerned about our future can excuse these policies; except by pretending ignorance or that nothing is askew.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Crimes Against Nature - RFK Jr. book on Bush [Re: Swami]
    #3028506 - 08/20/04 02:36 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I've read his pieces before and seen him speak on these points.

He is cool, yet searing.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Crimes Against Nature - RFK Jr. book on Bush [Re: Swami]
    #3028650 - 08/20/04 03:29 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

As far as 'old growth' forests (read: overgrown and littered with massive amounts of fuel), I'm inclined to side with George Bush on this one. Seeing massive forest fires ravage the areas where you live, destroying the habitat of numerous animals as well as humans sometimes prompts one to look at things from a perspective of balance. For as long as I can remember various government agencies have practiced a policy of fire suppression, allowing fuel to build up, but people were allowed to enter the forests and cut down trees designated by the forest service. Along comes the environmental extremists to put up roadblocks to all attempts to reduce the fuel that has accumulated, as well as lobbying to have all roads blocked and overgrown - including fire roads. This goes on for several decades putting the forests in a more precarious position than they would have been without any intervention of man - an overabundance of vegetation vying for limited supplies of water along with reduced access for the response of fire fighting teams. Then comes a drought... 'old growth' forests burn the fastest and hottest. Guess what, there are an awful lot of animals incapable of outrunning a crown fire (or a brush fire), the ones that do then come to unburned areas and compete for food with the animals that were there first. Then we have lots of starving animals due to a sudden overpopulation... Those old growth (now charcoal) forests and the animals that some thought they were protecting... gone.

Balance.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (08/20/04 03:33 PM)


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Crimes Against Nature - RFK Jr. book on Bush [Re: Swami]
    #3028914 - 08/20/04 04:50 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)



Hmmm good idea we will just cut all the trees down and than their wont be forest fires!!! WHAT A GENIUS IDEA!


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,778
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Crimes Against Nature - RFK Jr. book on Bush [Re: Swami]
    #3029153 - 08/20/04 05:51 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Without a constitutional amendment permitting it, there should be no EPA.

If such an amendment exists, I must be unaware of it.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineSource
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Re: Crimes Against Nature - RFK Jr. book on Bush [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3031217 - 08/21/04 03:28 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, sure, who needs environmental law enforcement. We all know the corporations will do the right thing and take care of our environment by regulating themselves.


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What you're searching for is what's searching.


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Anno [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3031463 - 08/21/04 04:47 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,778
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Crimes Against Nature - RFK Jr. book on Bush [Re: ]
    #3031644 - 08/21/04 07:05 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Without a constitutional amendment permitting it, there should be no EPA.



If it should be done, it should be done legally.

If it is not specifically allowed in the Constitution or Bill Of Rights, or if they are unable to pass an amendment, then it plain and simply is not the business of the FED's. You may if you wish substitute many other departments and laws in place of the "EPA".


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Crimes Against Nature - RFK Jr. book on Bush [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3031843 - 08/21/04 10:00 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I notice you have no comment on Bush's envrionmental record; instead choosing to derail the thread.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Crimes Against Nature - RFK Jr. book on Bush [Re: Evolving]
    #3031980 - 08/21/04 11:12 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

As far as 'old growth' forests (read: overgrown and littered with massive amounts of fuel) 



I live in forest logging country and have for 20 yrs.I have done logging as a summer job and hiked over a significant section of Oregon and Washingtons forest land.That is what qualifies me to tell you that "Old Growth" is NOT littered with fuel. It is unmanaged second and third growth forests which are brush ridden.This is made worse as timber companies spray herbicide on the deciduous competition with doug fir. Each spring new growth begins and is sprayed dead creating massive entangled thickets of small dead trees and brush.It is NOT removed but resprayed as each year the broadleaf trees reseed the areas.This continues for as long as it takes to give the fir trees an  advantage,sometimes each year for 5-7yrs.It is then left with the brush/tinder to grow for about 70 yrs and reharvested.This is the way forests are managed now and why forests are tinderboxes.70 yrs just isn't enough time for the canopy to thicken and the underbrush to rot or burn off naturaly.Old growth just as the name implies has been growing for a long time,far longer than 70 yrs and you will NOT find a lot of brush in a true old growth stand there simply has been too much shade for too long for most brush to grow under the canopy. An old growth forest has a completly diffferent ecosystem than a reprod forest and are quite parklike under the canopy.Bush's "forest plan" is a cheap cover for getting to some almost priceless wood(Old growth fir is almost a differrent wood from farmed timber as far as stength and beauty) and giving it away in a timber sale to a crony.
Politics aside Kerry has a forest plan, Bush has plans for the forest.
As a forest dwellerI can tell you which will work for the woods and which will line pockets and continue the problem(salvage logging is Quite profitable after a fire)
WR:wexican:


--------------------
To old for this place


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,778
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Crimes Against Nature - RFK Jr. book on Bush [Re: Swami]
    #3032148 - 08/21/04 12:44 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I notice you have no comment on Bush's envrionmental record; instead choosing to derail the thread.



I derailed nothing. If my opinion wasn't clear enough from my comment, I'm surprised.

But I suspect it was.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleretread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
Re: Crimes Against Nature - RFK Jr. book on Bush [Re: whiterasta]
    #3032176 - 08/21/04 12:53 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I've been to Yellowstone before and after the forest fires. I think it's turning out quite beautifully. However, the same areas that burned in California so harshly were ones that should have been trimmed and logged to prevent such fires.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,778
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Crimes Against Nature - RFK Jr. book on Bush [Re: ]
    #3032244 - 08/21/04 01:13 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

There's no constitutional amendment for the FCC.



Correct.

Quote:

Surely you recognize the need for that agency



No. The sight of a breast on TV doesn't make me quiver in fear of the countries morals.

Quote:

Should we have a whole constitutional amendment for just that?



If there is to be a FCC, there needs to be an amendment authorizing it.

Quote:

Some things are inherently necessary.



Then follow the constitution. Use it to authorize what you think we need, if you can get the votes.

Quote:

In a capitalist society, an EPA-type-deal is one of those things.



If you truly believe so, then do it right.

Quote:

Granted the FCC and the EPA both overstep their bounds, that's not the point.



Correct. The point is they have no right to exist under our constitution.

The constitution can be changed. It specifically limits the governments powers for a reason.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
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Re: Crimes Against Nature - RFK Jr. book on Bush [Re: Swami]
    #3032871 - 08/21/04 04:07 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

The Healthy Forests controversy seems to be a product of environmental groups' knee jerk prejudace against Republicans. For years it has been apparent that clear cutting was resulting in too much overgrowth that created out of control forest fires. It should have been apparent that Bush's proposal actually makes total sense, removing second growth trees and foliage gives us a source for wood without chopping old growth trees, and actually prevents forest fires. But politics overwhelm reason. Environmentalists would rather see all the trees burn down than cut a few of them.


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Crimes Against Nature - RFK Jr. book on Bush [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3034386 - 08/21/04 11:19 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Is that only a solution to man's rape of the earth?

Should humankind be more concerned with reducing stress to the earth and creating a sustaining world?

Perhaps the answer isn't a solution to the problem but simply a solution to the cause.


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Crimes Against Nature - RFK Jr. book on Bush [Re: whiterasta]
    #3034833 - 08/22/04 01:28 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

whiterasta said:
I live in forest logging country...



I live in the San Bernadino mountains and evacuated last year because of massive fires. There's plenty of fuel out here, I know people who've lost their homes , I've been in the charred remains of old growth forest that house nothing but ash and charcoal. I've been among the remains of people's homes. I've also hiked among the old growth forest here that are tinder boxes awaiting some Al Qeda operative, an enviro wacko, a pyromaniac or a careless dipshit to turn them into an inferno. A month after we returned from evacuation, there were crews along side of the road removing dead trees, and held back by the local sheriff's deputies were some assholes that don't even live anywhere nearby protesting and trying to block the removal of dead vegetation. I invite you to come here for the next fire and chain yourself to a tree.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Registered: 04/09/02
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Re: Crimes Against Nature - RFK Jr. book on Bush [Re: Evolving]
    #3042166 - 08/24/04 01:55 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I live in the San Bernadino mountains and evacuated last year because of massive fires. 



Yeah I was born and raised in Santa barbara county I know about Cali also and if you would study the native biology of the area you would realize that SOcal's brushy hillsides are naturaly supposed to burn on a routine basis. Man's wish to deny this ecological fact does not change it.
I am for fire even though I chose to live in the forest and the danger of burning there.Fire makes healthy forests when allowed to burn NATURALLY.
Ponderosa pine grows much better when exposed to fire for one example.
As for the rest of your rant about terrorists and such, well I suppose they have a target for just about any little fear someone wishes to work up.
as for the protesters well there's folks who'ld protest winning the lottery without buying a ticket, so what's yer point?As for chaining myself to a tree...no thanks I am far more likely to be using a chain saw to protect people like yourself who live in an area and cannot deal with the actualities of life by cutting down the tree your asking me to chain myself to.
I have seen socal fires and lived in one(Los Alamos Cali,1978)that scrub oak and artemesia burn hot, and if your gonna live in it you better know something about fire,or move somewhere safer because those forests are prone to burning now for a few thousand yrs.
Quote:

I've also hiked among the old growth forest here that are tinder boxes awaiting some Al Qeda operative, an enviro wacko, a pyromaniac or a careless dipshit to turn them into an inferno. 



GOOD GOD! what will those pesky terrorists scare wittle amerwikans wit nex?
Take a xanax dude!If you saw all the tinder dry brush in oregon that is native and regrows itself ove every year youl'd prolly be screaming for Bush's chainsaws and spray choppers but us who live it every day it is part of our forest. There are those who care well for there land and those who do not here in logging country and those who are part of Bush's plans are not on the "good" side of "Safe" forestry
BTW I log my land and so do most of us, it can be done well and in a manner healthy to the forest.
Peace   
WR:wexican:


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To old for this place


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: Crimes Against Nature - RFK Jr. book on Bush [Re: whiterasta]
    #3043676 - 08/24/04 12:19 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

whiterasta said:
... and if you would study the native biology of the area you would realize that SOcal's



Apparently you have not read and understood my previous posts. I have studied the biology of the region (native and non-native) and have lived here my whole life, I know about this.

Quote:

As for the rest of your rant about terrorists and such



Apparently this point was lost on you as well. I referred previously to 'balance,' our forests are out of balance and reactionary evironmental nuts don't help matters. That the forests can be a target for terrorist action is a rational view for anyone who knows the nature of the forests, the nature of conflict that we find ourselves in and is not an idiot. Or are you so naive as to think people who mean to do us harm would not consider the idea?

Quote:

so what's yer point?



Duh! My point has been stated previously. Balance is needed, not policy driven by short sighted reactionary wack jobs who loath their own species.

Quote:

... people like yourself who live in an area and cannot deal with the actualities of life...



You don't know me, don't presume in your ignorance that you do. I deal quite well with the acualities of life, I don't like that I and my fellow humans have been legally prevented by environmental extremists and their political sympathizers' actions from taking steps that we would like to in order deal with the actualities of life. We used to be able to go into the forests and cut down trees designated by the forest service. This practice was stopped years ago, not by us.

Quote:

I have seen socal fires... if your gonna live in it you...



Get off your high horse, I am more aware of my environment that you are. You are ignorant of me, my life experiences and my knowledge, your arrogance is unwarranted.

Quote:

GOOD GOD! what will those pesky terrorists scare wittle amerwikans wit nex?



Good god, you display even more short sightedness. Please see my comments above.

Quote:

If you saw all the tinder dry brush...youl'd prolly be screaming for Bush's...



You are quite presumptuous for one so ignorant. Why don't you stop projecting your fantasies about me and read my actual words, rationally assessing them (if it is within your nature) instead of wallowing in pre-conceived notions.

Are you for the blocking of fire roads? Are you for the blocking of citizens' access to the forests to cut down dead or diseased trees and brush? In light of fire suppression practices, do you think it is a good idea to stop the thinning of vegatation in fire prone areas? Do you put the life of an owl (or choose your preferred non-human critter) above that of your fellow man?

Here is a summary of The Healthy Forests Restoration Act of 2003 from the Democratic Policy Committee. Does it seem that it's a radical neo-con program to destroy the forests?

** edit, spelling **


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (08/24/04 12:28 PM)


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Registered: 04/09/02
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Re: Crimes Against Nature - RFK Jr. book on Bush [Re: Evolving]
    #3047070 - 08/25/04 02:34 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

First Take a chill pill fella.
Second you said you've "studied" and you "know" but you don't know there is no such thing as true "old growth" that hasn't seen fire and benefited by it.And I believe I mentioned I actualy manage some 55 acres of prime oregon timbeland that gets brushed yearly and burned.So I am managing the forest to prevent fire and promote healthy growth...on my own
Now you say you think Bush is gonna hire thousands of workers to do what I do each year? In the Several million plus acres of public land?PUHfuckin'LEEZ!
Have you ever even handled a 4'bar? How many days have you spent stacking slash? You ever cut a fire line in socal? Set a choke line in Oregon? Or have you just been to school?
Well I just told you my qualifications to state my opinions what are yours?
What is Evolving doing to keep the forest healthy besides telling others how to do it?
BTW what your hearing from Burning Bush is not applicable to your San Bernadinos as little valuble timber is there only your "old growth" scrub you hope Bush will hire ,just how many, workers to clear?It applies to where I live in logging country.It provides access to more public land for logging and that is all it will do.
Live up to your name and evolve dude it's only about the money.
WR:wexican:
PS I really was not trying to piss you off so bad dude, just state my opinions uncut and how I see it,sorry :blush:


--------------------
To old for this place


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Crimes Against Nature - RFK Jr. book on Bush [Re: whiterasta]
    #3048004 - 08/25/04 12:00 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

What is this continued foolishness with addressing the other poster's state of mind and bringing up half-assed assumptions about those you know nothing about? Please show me where I stated what you attribute me. If you can't, please stop making asinine statements. You talk about biology of the region and throw out a stupid assumption that I don't know about it, then when I state I do, you bring up such things as fire fighting experience. This discussion is not about me, why don't you stay on the topic at hand instead of reverting to the childish debating technique of discussing the other person? Clicky, clicky.

Now, the crux of the matter:
  • Are you for the blocking of fire roads?
  • Are you for the blocking of citizens' access to the forests to cut down dead or diseased trees and brush?
  • In light of fire suppression practices, do you think it is a good idea to stop the thinning of vegatation in fire prone areas?
  • Do you put the life of an owl (or choose your preferred non-human critter) above that of your fellow man?
  • Do you think The Healthy Forests Restoration Act of 2003 is a radical neo-con program to destroy the forests? If so, why (please state specific reasons citing language in the act)?
  • Should the public lands be managed for the benefit and desires of all citizens such as some harvesting of renewable resources for the purpose of housing people and creating jobs, some recreation, some preservation of virgin areas and fire suppression where needed to protect the lives and properties of human beings or should the government only do the bidding of lunatic fringe, eco-whack job chicken littles?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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