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InvisibleautomanM
blasted chipmunk
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Registered: 09/18/03
Posts: 8,272
Re: roll call... do libertarians support child labor? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3028246 - 08/20/04 11:14 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
No, try again, he's talking about 7,8 and 9 year olds there. What about 13, 14, 15 year olds?

He says he opposes a 6 year old working a 12 hour shift, does this mean he opposes a 13, 14 or 15 year old doing so?




are you serious about this at all? if you grew up on a farm, you'd realize how silly this is. a 13 year old is plenty capable of working a full week. i grew up on a farm. when i was 13 my chores consisted of mowing about 5 acres of land twice a week with a push mower, tending my own 1 acre veggie garden, feeding the chickens, horses, goats, and pig, and helping my grandfather in his excavation busines... and by that i mean he had a ditch witch and shovels, so i dug in alabama in the summer time. the rest of the year i attended school too. if we didnt garden, we didnt eat. i think it is the same way for a lot of the "kids" working overseas.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: roll call... do libertarians support child labor? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3028716 - 08/20/04 01:55 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Nope. I'm simply not blinded by Western values.

So why have you been saying you were against child labour when you clearly support child labour?

He did explain his position on child labor

So is he for it or against it? I'm still waiting for you to answer.

My God. You've got to be the most dense motherfucker on the planet.

Hey, remember kindergarten? :rolleyes:

Don't get all upset and start flaming. Calm down.

It's a simple question - are you for child labour or not? At what age do you believe children should work in sweatshops? 11? 12? 13?

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: roll call... do libertarians support child labor? [Re: ]
    #3028719 - 08/20/04 01:57 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

he has a point, but generally, yes. sorry to disappoint.

You havn't disappointed mush. At least you have the balls to state your position without trying to weasel out of it by saying "it depends how you define a child..".

Your proposal that libertarians are against child labour has clearly backfired heavily tho.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: roll call... do libertarians support child labor? [Re: ]
    #3028730 - 08/20/04 02:00 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

below a certain age, a person is unable to offer the informed consent required to accept an employment contract. on this principle, child labor is generally forbidden.

But you are clearly only speaking for you, not all libertarians. Silver has stated that he doesn't consider 13 year olds working in is child labour. I presume you disagree with that?

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: roll call... do libertarians support child labor? [Re: automan]
    #3028751 - 08/20/04 02:04 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I hope you arn't saying that helping out on your parents farm during the summer break is the same thing as working full time in a Nike factory.

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: roll call... do libertarians support child labor? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3028771 - 08/20/04 02:08 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Alex, why don't you give us your definiton of what is a 'child'?

Do you agree or do you disagree that different cultures may have different definitions of what is considered a child?

What is your definition of 'child labor'?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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InvisibleautomanM
blasted chipmunk
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Registered: 09/18/03
Posts: 8,272
Re: roll call... do libertarians support child labor? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3028927 - 08/20/04 02:55 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
I hope you arn't saying that helping out on your parents farm during the summer break is the same thing as working full time in a Nike factory.




do you even read the posts you comment on? i believe what i said was, "the rest of the year i attended school too." in that sentence, "too" is the operative word. meaning when school came, it was in addition to the workload.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: roll call... do libertarians support child labor? [Re: automan]
    #3029148 - 08/20/04 03:50 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

i believe what i said was, "the rest of the year i attended school too." in that sentence, "too" is the operative word. meaning when school came, it was in addition to the workload.

I'm sorry but am I supposed to give a shit what you did on your dads farm after school? What has your story to do with child labour? Do you have a point?

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: roll call... do libertarians support child labor? [Re: Evolving]
    #3029173 - 08/20/04 03:58 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Alex has definite problems with cognition, reading comprehension and logical thought. Ever notice how many fallacies he uses in his debating technique? Ever notice how he seldom offers a direct answer? Ever notice that he never provides links to back up his assertions about the positions of others? Ever notice that he avoids giving definitions so as to allow him weasel room for his rationalizations?



I've noticed and have pointed it, and more, out on many occasions.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: roll call... do libertarians support child labor? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3029180 - 08/20/04 04:00 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

This is sapping my will to live



Don't get our hopes up and then let us down.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: roll call... do libertarians support child labor? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3029234 - 08/20/04 04:12 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

that is funny


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken

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Anonymous

Re: roll call... do libertarians support child labor? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3029545 - 08/20/04 05:31 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

could you be as forthright in your description of your views on child labor as i was?

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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: roll call... do libertarians support child labor? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3029569 - 08/20/04 05:36 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Nope. I'm simply not blinded by Western values.

So why have you been saying you were against child labour when you clearly support child labour?



Because I do not consider teenagers who are biologically adults to be children.

Quote:

He did explain his position on child labor

So is he for it or against it? I'm still waiting for you to answer.



From what I've gathered, he is categorically against it.

Quote:

My God. You've got to be the most dense motherfucker on the planet.

Hey, remember kindergarten? :rolleyes:

Don't get all upset and start flaming. Calm down.



It's more than flaming.  It's a wake-up call for you.  Believe it or not, I don't do this just to be mean.  I do it because you need to hear it.  In spite of all that I've seen of you, I'm not quite ready to give up hope on you yet.

Quote:

It's a simple question - are you for child labour or not? At what age do you believe children should work in sweatshops? 11? 12? 13?



It's not so simple if you don't define what a child is.  I support the right of people 14 or older to seek any employment they wish(unless it involves driving, in which case they should be old enough to have their license).  13 is a maybe.  12 and under?  No.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: roll call... do libertarians support child labor? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3031256 - 08/21/04 01:41 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Because I do not consider teenagers who are biologically adults to be children.

So you'd be perfectly happy to see a grown man having sex with a 13 year old girl because she's an "adult"? What age do people become adults in your world? You don't think young teenagers should be getting an education rather than pissing away their youths in sweatshops?

From what I've gathered, he is categorically against it.

If you can find where he states he is categorically against child labour let me know.

It's more than flaming. It's a wake-up call for you.

Oh come on silver. Calling people "motherfucker" isn't a wakeup call to anyone. Try behaving with a little kindness, humour and dignity, I'd respect that. Relax, I'm not your enemy.

Believe it or not, I don't do this just to be mean. I do it because you need to hear it. In spite of all that I've seen of you, I'm not quite ready to give up hope on you yet.

Silver, we are complete strangers on a shroom board. We don't even know each others names. Don't take this political talk so personally. If we met we'd probably be friends.

13 is a maybe. 12 and under? No.

So anyone over 12 is an adult in your book? Fair enough.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: roll call... do libertarians support child labor? [Re: ]
    #3031270 - 08/21/04 01:45 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

could you be as forthright in your description of your views on child labor as i was?

I'm against it.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineSpaceCadet
Stranger
Registered: 03/09/04
Posts: 15
Loc: Washington
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: roll call... do libertarians support child labor? [Re: ]
    #3031330 - 08/21/04 01:59 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I think anyone who calls their party the "PARTY OF PRINCIPLE" and holds a firm belief in the free market ought to support child labor if the child wants to work.

If you're going to worship the almighty free market you had damn well better stick to your guns, so to speak, and oppose any and all state involvement in the market economy.

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: roll call... do libertarians support child labor? [Re: SpaceCadet]
    #3031664 - 08/21/04 05:21 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

SpaceCadet writes:

If you're going to worship the almighty free market you had damn well better stick to your guns, so to speak, and oppose any and all state involvement in the market economy.

This is one of the most common tactics used by those who claim that Libertarians are not consistent in the application of Libertarian principles -- they point out that Libertarians won't let children do whatever they want and then claim that this makes Libertarians hypocritical.

This indicates either that the debater has no grasp of human nature and the stages of human development (ignorance) or that the debater does grasp these things yet when arguing chooses to pretend they don't exist (intellectual dishonesty).

It is patently absurd to pretend that a toddler should have all the rights and obligations an adult does. Libertarians recognize this. As mushmaster points out, there is such a concept as "age of consent". As I pointed out, all current societies recognize this concept. Too bad critics of Libertarian thought seem unable to recognize it.

pinky


--------------------

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: roll call... do libertarians support child labor? [Re: Phred]
    #3031693 - 08/21/04 05:47 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Their minds have not yet reached the age of consent.


--------------------

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Anonymous

Re: roll call... do libertarians support child labor? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3031808 - 08/21/04 07:35 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I'm against it.

define your terms. what is a child? what is labor?

i was working in a pharmacy at the age of 16. was that child labor?

i know plenty of young women who remember babysitting when they were no more than 14 or 15 years old. are you against that?

do you think it should be illegal for children in destitute families to go out panhandling?

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Anonymous

Re: roll call... do libertarians support child labor? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3031822 - 08/21/04 07:44 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Your proposal that libertarians are against child labour has clearly backfired heavily tho.

i wouldn't say it backfired. libertarians and non-libertarians alike have mostly answered with, "generally, no, but it depends greatly on the circumstances", which i think is a reasonable answer to the question. it shouldn't be illegal for children to work. hell, going to school is work. doing chores around the house (or farm, or family business) is work.

no one who has thought this through has come out and said that it should be illegal for any child (meaning someone under 18?) to perform any sort of work. that would be absurd. at the same time, no one has claimed that it is wrong for the government to regulate child labor in a reasonable manner.

if i did make a proposal that libertarians were categorically opposed to child labor, i was mistaken. they are not, and very few are. however, the proposal that libertarians believe that children have a "right" to work in factories is also incorrect. this would mean that libertarians would oppose government regulations on child labor as being violations of their rights. they clearly do not.

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