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Offlinewallace
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few newbie questions
    #3008297 - 08/16/04 09:17 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Hi, I am a newbie here, and very much at the guidebook stage. I have a few questions that have been building up.
First, I am puzzled by naming. Sometimes when a specific mushroom gets talked about, the genus name seems to vary rather than the specific epithet. Case in point, the haymaker's. My guide calls it the Psathyrella foeniscecii, but on this forum it has been called the Panaeolus foeniscecii (I think). Same goes for what my guide calls the Anelliaria anitillarum. On this forum the epithet has been used, but with a different genus. I do not understand how the epithet is the same and the genus different. Should be opposite. And my guide indicates that this particular mushroom should give you the runs AND make you high. The experts on this list claim this is NOT an active mushroom, but just the same, are there any other psilocybin mushrooms that are *poisonous* (dicey topic when we are talking about mushrooms) and *active*? In other words, the mushroom brings you to having serious thoughts about a higher power, and then you die anyway.
Also every guide tries to scare the shit out of any psilocybe adventurers by bringing out the galerina example. Is that the only really deadly mushroom that we should fear in the LBM category? If the galerina does not stain blue, and we ingest part of a blue-staining mushroom, does that mean at least we need not fear metabolizing our livers within 12 and 14 days? The spore are not as dark, and.... Any sure-fire tips to avoiding galerinas welcome.
Also about the amanita genus. In my guide, amanita mushrooms like amanita muscaria WILL make you sick and hallucinate. Yet other mushrooms like the amanita cytrina only causes the "intoxication". Are there any of the muscarin mushrooms that don't make you sweat and barf?
Anyway, a jumble of questions. Would appreciate some answers.
Wallace


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Offlineivi
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Re: few newbie questions [Re: wallace]
    #3008438 - 08/16/04 11:24 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Panaeolina foenisecii (=Panaeolus foenisecii) is NOT ACTIVE.


Yes, taxonomy can be quite confusing :smirk:
Here I'll quote Paul Stamets:

Quote:

A mossland mushroom from Idaho, Psilocybe corneipes was once thought to be a Galerina. This bizarre mushroom has been difficult to place in a genus. First it was Agaricus, then a Geophila, then a Psilocybe, then a Galerina. And now...no kidding...it is in its own genus, Mythicomyces!




See? :grin:


Are there any other psilocybin mushrooms that are *poisonous* (dicey topic when we are talking about mushrooms) and *active*? In other words, the mushroom brings you to having serious thoughts about a higher power, and then you die anyway.

I've heard the whole life flashes past Your eyes the moment You die... :shrug:


Also every guide tries to scare the shit out of any psilocybe adventurers by bringing out the galerina example. Is that the only really deadly mushroom that we should fear in the LBM category?

No. Besides many species of Galerina there are poisonous species of Pholiotina, Inocybe and more...
But You know the rule, right? - Never consume a mushroom if You're not 100% sure what it is!!!


amanita mushrooms like amanita muscaria WILL make you sick and hallucinate

Amanita muscaria contains muscimol (psychoactive substance) and ibotenic acid (makes You sick). During dehidration (drying) ibotenic acid turns into muscimol. So what I can tell You about A. muscaria is that the preparation is key and that its effects are very different from those of psilocybin mushrooms (many people find them unpleasant). Click for more information :laugh:


--------------------


Edited by ivi (08/16/04 11:47 AM)


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Invisiblespores
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Re: few newbie questions [Re: wallace]
    #3008455 - 08/16/04 11:41 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

wallace said:
I do not understand how the epithet is the same and the genus different.



Some mushrooms have been classified under various genus's (genii ? :wink: ), in which case only the genus is usually changed.  same situation with Hypholoma/Naematoloma/Stropharia aurantiaca and many other species.


Quote:

wallace said:
my guide indicates that this particular mushroom should give you the runs AND make you high. The experts on this list claim this is NOT an active mushroom.



I would listen to the knowledgable posters here on this.  Mushroom mycology is a large field and since the authors are not likely to have personal experience with each species of mushroom in their books, they will sometimes copy the mistakes of others.  Panaeolina foens are a good example, the most convincing explanation I can come up with is that there are some less common yet very similar looking species of grass/lawn inhabiting panaeolus that are active and lead to false reports of activity in pan foens.

Quote:

wallace said:
but just the same, are there any other psilocybin mushrooms that are *poisonous* (dicey topic when we are talking about mushrooms) and *active*?



As far as I know, no Psilocybes produce any toxins but psiloc(yb)in/baeocystin/norbaeocystin etc.  Outside of that genus, I really don't know.  Amanita muscaria and pantherina could be called psychoactive, but their effects come from muscimol and not psiloc(yb)in, which isn't deadly poisonous AFAIK, but it is poisonous nonetheless.

Quote:

wallace said:
Also every guide tries to scare the shit out of any psilocybe adventurers by bringing out the galerina example. Is that the only really deadly mushroom that we should fear in the LBM category?



Nope, there are lots of others that can fool an inexperienced person looking for psilocybes.  Pholiotina (can be deadly), Psathyrella, Conocybe, Chlorophyllum and a few others come to mind.  What lookalikes you encounter depends on the species you're looking for.

Quote:

wallace said:
If the galerina does not stain blue, and we ingest part of a blue-staining mushroom, does that mean at least we need not fear metabolizing our livers within 12 and 14 days?



There are toxic bolete mushrooms that stain blue and will lead to some extreme unpleasantness if you eat them.  I don't think there are any that are deadly, but still the only way to avoid poisoning is to know how to ID mushrooms based on many key characteristics. blue staining on its own is not a good way to ID psychoactive mushrooms.

Quote:

wallace said:
Any sure-fire tips to avoiding galerinas welcome.



If you take spore prints, you will never confuse a galerina for a psilocybe.

Quote:

wallace said:
In my guide, amanita mushrooms like amanita muscaria WILL make you sick and hallucinate. Yet other mushrooms like the amanita cytrina only causes the "intoxication". Are there any of the muscarin mushrooms that don't make you sweat and barf?



I never heard any reports of intoxication from A. citrina, and Amanitas are not a very safe genus to experiment with.  Even many people who are familiar with the genus wont even eat the edible species.  Sweating and nausea are symptoms of muscarine poisoning, I don't think there's any way to get past that.

DH


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: few newbie questions [Re: wallace]
    #3008771 - 08/16/04 01:42 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Panaeolina foenisecii Maire has been in many families.

Here is a breakdown and it is not a psychaoctie mushroom yret dozens of field guides list it i as so.

Panaeolina R. Maire, Treb. Mus. Nat. Barcel. ser. Bot. 15:109 (1933).
Type species: Agaricus foenisecii Pers.:Fr., Syst. Mycol. 1:295 (1821).
Typonym: Psilocybe Fayod, Ann. Sci. Nat. (Bot.) 7(9):377 (1889).
Panaeolina foenisecii (Pers.:Fr.) R. Maire (Haymakers).

Agaricus foenisecii Pers.:Fr., Syst. Mycol. 1:295 (1821).
Psilocybe foenisecii (Pers.:Fr.) Quelet, Champ. Jura. Vosges 1:47 (1872).
Drosophila foenisecii (Pers.:Fr.) Quelet, Enchiridion:117 (1886).
Psathyra foenisecii (Pers.:Fr.) Bert, Bull. Soc. Mycol. Fr. 17:227 (1901).
Panaeolus foenisecii (Pers.:Fr.) Kuhner. Botaniste 17:187 (1926).
Panaeolina foenisecii (Pers.:Fr.) R. Maire, Treb. Mus. Cienc. Nat. Barcel. ser. Bot. 15:109 (1933).
Psathyrella foenisecii (Pers.:Fr.) A. H. Smith, Mem. NY Bot. Gdn. 24:32 (1972).
Description of the cap, gills, stipe, and spores are presented below (see Fig. 1a).
References CAP: 10-3.5mm. Broad, narrowly conic to convex, bell-shaped with age, dry without hair, margin incurved when young, faintly striate when moist, dull cinnamon brown to reddish brown, sometimes zonate, becoming pallid and sometimes pitted and wrinkled. Flesh frayish white; taste distinctive.
GILLS: Ascending-adnate, subdistant, unequal, broad, ventricose, mottled with age. Edges even, white.
STIPE: 4-10cm. long. 1.5-3mm. thick, stiff hollow, nearly equal and slightly enlarged at base. Brittle and striate, with minute hairs at apex, smooth or grooved below. Whitish to pinkish brown. Annulus and universal veil absent.
SPORES: 11-18 6-9?m in size, dark vinaceous brown to dark purple brown, thick-walled, broadly elliptical, ornamental with spoty warts, pore at apex.

Oh yes, there are approximately 85 species opf Psilocybe in the genera which contain no psilocine/psilocybine and will not make you sick or kill you. But there are Inocybes and Concocybes which have psilocine/psilocybine. which do contain amatoxins (deadly) and Inoycbes which contain muscarine (causing profuse sweating, diahrrea, an/or vomiting). However the ones in those families which do contain psilocine/psilocybine do not contain the deadly toxic toxins.

Psilocybe cubensis was first identified form cuba in 1904 as Stropharia cuhensis Earle, later emended to Psilocybe cubensis (Earle) Singer.

Two years after its discovery in Cuba, it was identified in 1906 by the Frenbch mycologist Pattoulaird in Tonkin (Hanoi, North Viet-Nam) as Naematoloma caerulescens.

Copelandia cyanescens was originally idendified as Copealandia papilionacea from Sri Lanka (formerly Ceylon), thus the confusion of Panaeolus papilionaceus being id,ed in several guides as Panaeolus papilionaceus and l;isted as a hallucinogenic species.

P. sphinctrinus and P anrtillarum are not psychoactive. Panaeolus, Anellaria and Coprinus are black spored musrooms int he d same family. thus confusion as to their id. There are 22 Panaeolus species abdn some are psychoactive, the main ones are Panaeolus subbalteatus and Panaeolus africanus.

Some monor confusions surrounds other Panaeolus species which are often confused with Copelandia mushrooms.

For instance, Panaeolus microsporus found naturally in grasslands and meados and fields has never been found to contain psilocine or psilocybine in the wild in situ, howevver when growi n in vir tro in a lab it produces good amounts of psilocybine and psilocine.



Or the misidentification of Psilocybe strictipes as nbeing similar to P. baeocystis only taller and was actually a mushroom similar tot he liberty cap in macroscopic appearance.

Kreigelsteiner, a German scientist tried to convince everyone that Psilocybe maire from northern Africa, Psilocybe bohemica and Psilocybe serbica were all realy Psilocybe cyanescens, yet they are all macroscopically different than one another.

Even Paul Stamets book Psilocybe mushrooms and their Allies, and Psilocybine mushrooms of the World have misidentified shrooms in their guides as did my original magic mushrooms of the PNW. David Arora has a beautiful colored photo of Psilocybe cyanofibrilosa from Paul Stamets and it is labeled as Psilocybe cyanescens in his mushrooms Dymistified book..

Bob Harris in the original Growing Wild Mushrooms identified Psilocybe cyanescens as unidentified, Psilocybe baeocystis as Psilocybe cyanescens and Psilocybe stuntzii as Psilocybe pugetensis.

David Arora and paul Stamets have known of ths cyanescens/cyanofibrillosa error in Aroroa's book for more that 12 years and never corrected it in the book.

The mushroom cultivator has many descrepancies in their reference guide with misquoted journal issues making it hard for researchers to find the correct issues to study cultivation techniques. Paul knows of them but the publishers will not spend the extra money to change the pages.

mj,

And the majority of fielf guides for edibles and poisonous shrooms usually note that a psioocybian mushroom is either poisonous/hallucinogenic or dangerous or used as a drug by some segments of society.


Also years ago I corrected a large portion of the FAQ on shrooms which did not belong in their as psychoactive which were not and Ythan and APhex never removed many of the suggested ones I recommended they delete.

Scuse the capital letters department below. Was typing to fast and then looked up an the screen.

NEWS REPORTERS AND JOURNALSISTS WHO GET INFORMATION FROM LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS REGARDING MAGIC SHROOMS OFTEN WRITE AND DISTORT INFORMATION TO SCARE PEOP0LE OR BECAUSE OF PLAIN STUPIDITY OF THE JOURNALIST IN WRITING ABOUT SUBJEcTS THEY DO NOT RESEARCH.



mj


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: few newbie questions [Re: spores]
    #3008782 - 08/16/04 01:47 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

We can add yet another level of confusion to the whole taxonomy question, "what is the 'correct' name for this mushroom," and that's acceptance by the professional mycological community.

Panaeolus foenisecii is where the majority of professional mycologists currently seem to place this mushroom. Psathyrella is where Alexander Smith put it, with several very good arguments, and this is where the mushroom is placed in the Audubon Society book by Gary Lincoff. Panaeolina is where some mycologists would like it to be, on the basis that it was in Panaeolus when they started and the spores are warted, not smooth. But the professional mycological community as a whole hasn't entirely bought in on moving this mushroom out of Panaeolus yet. A Google search of "foenisecii" seems to yield mostly Panaeolus, somewhat fewer Panaeolina's, and smaller numbers of Psathyrella and Psilocybe.

As if that wasn't bad enough, the professional mycological community is actually several communities. The Europeans and the North Americans disagree on some of these debates. The Japanese and North Americans disagree on some.

All three of those names are correct, in that they accurately and uniquely name the mushroom in question. The debates about which name is more correct will continue until some sort of final decision is made that definitively resolves how each genus is to be defined and which genera will be kept or discarded. Don't hold your breath waiting for that decision to be made. Even if they all decided tomorrow on a method, in a few years some bright young mycologist will come up with yet another "better way" to do it and the fun can begin again.

As of 25 years ago the best method consisted of examining various macroscopic and microscopic anatomical features of the mushroom to classify it. Currently the big thing is using DNA and statistical analysis. But they're putting a lot of emphasis on being able to still use anatomical features of the mushroom.

Michael Kuo has an excellent essay on the topic here, although it is a bit long.

And if you think we're anywhere near the end of playing these games, I've got some great land to sell you.

I think the moral of the story is that this is a complicated topic and one where we can expect confusion from beginners and some disagreement among experts and professionals. Also, we shouldn't get too worked up when somebody decides to use a name for a mushroom that's different than the one we like to use.

Happy mushrooming!


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InvisiblePinback
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Re: few newbie questions [Re: mjshroomer]
    #3008991 - 08/16/04 02:51 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Do you have any information regarding why it was once placed in Drosophila, a fruit fly genus? Weird...

Edit: I did some googling and found out that Drosophila was earlier used as a mushroom genus, but later declared invalid.


Edited by Pinback (08/16/04 03:19 PM)


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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: few newbie questions [Re: Pinback]
    #3009563 - 08/16/04 05:09 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

i pointed that out before a few times. (the drosophilla reference) i thought it was a major oversight, diddnt know it was once a mushroom genus.


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OfflineSilverwolf
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Re: few newbie questions [Re: Mitchnast]
    #4750827 - 10/03/05 08:32 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Something is not right , known only as "Haymakers" here something seems to be valued as a highly (?)psychoactive mushroom but what is it ?


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""


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InvisibleMasonsChild
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Re: few newbie questions [Re: spores]
    #4753971 - 10/04/05 01:32 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

wallace said:
If the galerina does not stain blue, and we ingest part of a blue-staining mushroom, does that mean at least we need not fear metabolizing our livers within 12 and 14 days?



There are toxic bolete mushrooms that stain blue and will lead to some extreme unpleasantness if you eat them. I don't think there are any that are deadly, but still the only way to avoid poisoning is to know how to ID mushrooms based on many key characteristics. blue staining on its own is not a good way to ID psychoactive mushrooms.





and some gilled mushrooms (Lactarious indigo and others) also blue, but you would notice the whiteish spore print.


--------------------
Truckin' ain't for Sally's


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