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OfflineCyber
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Clean energy?
    #3003958 - 08/14/04 11:53 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Wether you believe in the greenhouse effect or not. (i don't) Most agree that we need to work on cleaner energy and reduce pollution. I am wondering what a "Clean Energy" source would be. After looking into it and reading on it I am finding it questionable wether clean efficient Energy exists.

For example.

Coal produces particulate matter and some heavy medels.
Natural gas produces greenhouse gases and is ultimately unsustainable.
Nuclear Produces wast that is radioactive for 10,000 years.
Geothermal has a byproduct of sulfur dioxide. The contributer to acid rain!
Power cell technology Has a byproduct of water vapor. The major natural greenhouse gases are water vapor, which causes most (about 60%) of the greenhouse effect on Earth, carbon dioxide (about 26%), and ozone.
Hydro electric damns cause the distruction of both human and animal habitats. The one in Egypt stopped the annual flooding of the Nile river and reduced crop production. The one they are proposing in South America will distroy the nesting grounds of 3 endangered bird species.
Wind power Although a sustainable and renewable power source has it's problems. There are now studies under way to determin if removing large amounts of energy from the atmosphere will reduce global wind currents causing an increase in global temperature.
Solar This one appears to be a good one but it would take an area of 600 sq meters to power a small town of 3000 people.

So what have I missed?


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Invisiblezeta
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Registered: 05/25/02
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Re: Clean energy? [Re: Cyber]
    #3007487 - 08/16/04 01:29 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Growing crops and converting them into ethanol or biodiesel (for example)

Quote:

Geothermal has a byproduct of sulfur dioxide. The contributer to acid rain!



Huh?? No it doesn't...

Quote:

Wind power Although a sustainable and renewable power source has it's problems. There are now studies under way to determin if removing large amounts of energy from the atmosphere will reduce global wind currents causing an increase in global temperature.



I doubt we could ever remove enough to make a difference


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Clean energy? [Re: Cyber]
    #3007994 - 08/16/04 04:06 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Nuclear fusion, creating a mini star inside a power plant for a great clean efficient power source, but we arent there quite yet.

And weather you believe it or not, greenhouse gasses are real, and they are causing global warming. There is alot of studies on this and the earth has warmed up a few degrees globally since the industrial revolution.


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OfflineRandolph_Carter
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Re: Clean energy? [Re: Cyber]
    #3008028 - 08/16/04 04:18 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Thermoelectrics are clean, and could help reduce the output of waste heat.
Not effective as a primary power source tho, more a scavenging source.


--------------------
"..all those molecules thrashing their kinky little tails, hot for destiny and the street."  Gibson


Nuke baby seals for Jesus!

(This has been a +1 production.)


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Clean energy? [Re: Cyber]
    #3008239 - 08/16/04 07:40 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Although H2O may be accountable as the main greenhouse gas, it always has been and may play a major role in moderating the planet's temperature.

The hope with hydrogen fuel cell technology is to provide a facility which cracks water and then reforms it. Maintaining the status quo.

As far as I am aware, many projects currently 'reform' fosil fuels to produce H2, obviously this does not provide the same benefit.


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Clean energy? [Re: zeta]
    #3008247 - 08/16/04 08:10 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zeta said:
Quote:

Geothermal has a byproduct of sulfur dioxide. The contributer to acid rain!



Huh?? No it doesn't...





Yes, it does.

They do a lot of filtering on the released gasses but it is still there. It is also less than coal burning plants produce.

Quote:

Wind power Although a sustainable and renewable power source has it's problems. There are now studies under way to determine if removing large amounts of energy from the atmosphere will reduce global wind currents causing an increase in global temperature.



Quote:


I doubt we could ever remove enough to make a difference





If you had ask Ford in the early 1900's if he thought his cars would make a difference in the environment, I bet he would have had a similar response.


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Clean energy? [Re: Redo]
    #3008256 - 08/16/04 08:21 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
And weather you believe it or not, greenhouse gasses are real, and they are causing global warming. There is alot of studies on this and the earth has warmed up a few degrees globally since the industrial revolution.




Although this is off topic the few deg you mention is 0.6c in the last 100 years.

Nuclear fusion is quite a ways off and is not currently a clean energy source. Although some day it may be. If you want to get into the cutting edges of science then why not suggest Mater/anti-mater reactions. They produce lots of power, no by products, and no radiation. We can currently produce 10 anti-mater atoms a year. This is closer to working and fusion.


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Clean energy? [Re: Cyber]
    #3008261 - 08/16/04 08:28 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Cyber said:

Although this is off topic the few deg you mention is 0.6c in the last 100 years.






Which is a huge spike compared to what it was over the past 10,000 years

Quote:


Nuclear fusion is quite a ways off and is not currently a clean energy source. Although some day it may be. If you want to get into the cutting edges of science then why not suggest Mater/anti-mater reactions. They produce lots of power, no by products, and no radiation. We can currently produce 10 anti-mater atoms a year. This is closer to working and fusion.




I have never heard of any energy products from matter/anti-matter, but it sounds interesting. Whatever it is, within the next few decades we should see some new power sources introduced that will hopefully eliminate our search for clean sources.


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Clean energy? [Re: Redo]
    #3008294 - 08/16/04 09:14 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
Quote:

Cyber said:

Although this is off topic the few deg you mention is 0.6c in the last 100 years.






Which is a huge spike compared to what it was over the past 10,000 years






Only if you exclude the 4th to 9th centureis where it was 2c higher (MWP). It is a small spike compaired to what it has been over the last 400,000 years with spikes in the 2c to 4c deg range above normal.

Quote:

Quote:


Nuclear fusion is quite a ways off and is not currently a clean energy source. Although some day it may be. If you want to get into the cutting edges of science then why not suggest Mater/anti-mater reactions. They produce lots of power, no by products, and no radiation. We can currently produce 10 anti-mater atoms a year. This is closer to working and fusion.




I have never heard of any energy products from matter/anti-matter, but it sounds interesting. Whatever it is, within the next few decades we should see some new power sources introduced that will hopefully eliminate our search for clean sources.




The Matter/Anti-Matter stuff is realy on the edge of science.

The reaction between matter and its corresponding anti-matter particles is 100% efficient, converting all of the mass into energy. If you want to find the amount of energy produced in any such reaction, just multiply the total mass (particles plus their anti-particles) in kilograms by the speed of light squared (9 x 1016) and you will get the result in joules.

Oh and I was wrong on the 10 atoms a year! This is from

http://www.fnal.gov/pub/inquiring/questions/antimatterprod.html

"Since resuming collider operations in 2001, our best stacking rate to date is 12.4E10 antiprotons per hour."


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
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Registered: 08/08/03
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Re: Clean energy? [Re: Cyber]
    #3008964 - 08/16/04 02:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Biomass looks good, given that we subsidize agriculture and to ensure supply we overproduce, ending up dumping a large amount.
Turning the waste into fuel seems like a good idea, good for the environment, good for the tax payer.

Tidal (not much use if you are land locked, but hey I live on an island :smile: ), however there are marine environmental concerns.

Ocean current  like wind power, but using ocean bed currents, like the gulf stream or atlantic conveyor. However, big engineering problems to be overcome.

Orbital Solar Orbital solar power station collects the much stronger sunlight from orbit (plus no clouds), and beams it back to ground and microwaves, also doubles up as an orbital weapon platform :smile:

Superconductors (that work at usable temps) Not an energy forms as such, zero loss energy transmission would make a huge difference.


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