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OfflineZoso_UK
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Zoso_UK]
    #3008394 - 08/16/04 08:54 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Basically, I completely agree with you that man is a part of nature. However, what distinguishes our species from every other is that we produce things that do not naturally exist. Thus they are certainly not natural.

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InvisibleCJay
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Zoso_UK]
    #3008473 - 08/16/04 09:51 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

The things do exist naturally, we just put them through a kind of mental filter and manifest a change of form in them.

Most animals do this to some degree when creating their homes etc.

Of course they do not do it to the degree we do, the level of specialism we possess in this area is (as you say) probably our most defining feature as a species of this planet.

It is also what will lead us to the stars, taking the biosphere with us and propagating the galaxy with biological life, using our skills in accelerating the flowering of our solarsystem and beyond.

And making a great story along the way!

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InvisibleCJay
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Re: &amp;amp; Re: timetraveller &amp;amp; kaiowas; shroomism [Re: 2Experimental]
    #3008503 - 08/16/04 10:11 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I disagree - I think that though we may call things 'unnatural' (like atom bombs + making plants illegal) this is actually a part of the process of nature. Steps on the path, though some may be detestable.

Just like 'natural disasters' which can be virtually unimaginably destructive.

Our mind(s) are a part of nature, and our culture(s) are part of an evolving entelechy type being that is coming through us.

Most of our problems as humans are caused by the fact that people do not appreciate the relativity of their culture, and take their particular cultural entity point to be an end point.

We become knotted as individuals, and a species. This is where submersion in the vegetable mind matrix helps by untangling such knots and breaking down our imagined separation, and cultural conditioning.

This is all part of the process of nature as it creates us as a species. We are a very young species, perhaps only a million years old, I personally don't think we can classify ourselves as a truly adult human species until we truly begin spacefaring.

It does often appear that we are out of sync with nature, however the character of nature is that it is cyclic, and our imbalance (I believe) will likewise prove to be so. Many species get 'out of balance', they use up their resources since the population gets too big. Then they die off, only to recouperate and begin regrowth.

Sure we are running it to the wire - but Mamma Nature is right behind us.

Edited by CJay (08/16/04 10:28 AM)

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OfflineZoso_UK
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Re: &amp;amp; Re: timetraveller &amp;amp; kaiowas; shroomism [Re: CJay]
    #3008532 - 08/16/04 10:28 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

The chemicals and materials that we have and do produce do not exist in nature. We mix elements in ways that are not to be found in nature. It is not merely a change of form.

I like your idea of spacefaring and I think it would be great but your Roddenberry optimism fails to consider how badly we look after our own world let alone what we'd do to others. Humans see this planet as their planet and hate sharing so I hope we don't survive long enough to ravage the rest of the universe (and with the way the American Empire is going, humanity may well not live to see the end of the century).

Btw, what other species has become 'out of balance'?

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InvisibleCJay
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Re: &amp;amp;amp; Re: timetraveller &amp;amp;amp; kaiowas; shroomism [Re: Zoso_UK]
    #3008641 - 08/16/04 11:02 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The chemicals and materials that we have and do produce do not exist in nature. We mix elements in ways that are not to be found in nature. It is not merely a change of form.




It is not merely a change of form, it is a change of form manifested through the use of our mental filters and manual dexterity - both of those being gifts of nature.


Rabbits populations become 'out of balance' for one, when left to nature's devices. Their populations grow to a ridiculous level as they ravage their immediate environment, and famine and disease eventually knock their populations back down.

The hope is that we humans will not follow this J curve, we will become conscious enough to hit a level they call an S curve and exist within our limits. Either way, it will be the natural way of things.

I do not have some Roddenbury like optimisum, besides most of the guy's stories are about 'unnatural' things like wholesale war betwen humanoid populations.

I feel that as with all of the cycles of nature, things will revolve. Perhaps thwere will be some kind of golden age, however I doubt it will last forever. Before long another epoch will come and swallow that.

We have reached the planetary envelope, our level of technological innovation is going beyond the level our planet can handle. It would do a lot of good if we could get our asses in gear and get off it. In space itself the things we do on the planet would damage nothing. Consider the fact that in space radiation levels are already at unappreciably dangerous levels, and biological life cannot exist. If we were to create off planet environments we would be introducing biologicval life where there is currently none. If we produced things that are pollutants on earth they would be swallowed up by the immesurable vacumn of space.

In time our inginuity and our evolving intellect/consciousness will overcome the difficulties as they come up. Our big problem right now is the prevailance of 'leaders' on this planet who adopt the reptillian (mammalian at best) base line. Obsessed with power and territory they cage us all on this ball we could already be resourcing for from asteroids and off planet sources.

I personally believe we are kind of terrified of leaving the mother planet, as her children we cling to her skirt - but now it is time to face the big wide universe. The adventure and story it offers.

We will surely cause destruction, but we will also bring life. Consider if we terraformed Mars - an entire biosphere could exist up there within a century or two. This is the kind of thing our skills can lead to.

I don't think we are heading for a utopia, perhaps a pragmatopia for a while at least. Maybe for longer. Sure we may not make it, but then the Earth will begin again to flower and once more will eventually produce a creature like us to carry her spawn forth.

We are evolving at quite a rate as a species, and so are our ideas on how to exist in harmony with nature at a technologically advanced level. This is now the main thrust of science and technological achievement. As a species we are conscious of our plight, and wareness is the first step to trancendence.

I feel that going into space will be a life changing experience for most humans, consider the astronauts who have been into space. It is well documented that commonly they go up military men/women, and come back with all these fluffy outlooks.

Seeing the entire Earth as this tiny blob is a major chnge of perspective. National boundries and cultural argument fade into insignificance when the Earth is viewed like this. We are as a planet but a speck in the night sky. That is extremely humbling and distinctly psychedellic.

We are moving into a time when the old conditioning which (naturally) holds back our evolution to this state and relies on monkey mind must be overcome as we accept the alien mind we can (naturally) evolve into.

Sure we may fuck up - but that's what adds life's natural tension - nothing is certain. Or is it?

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OfflineZoso_UK
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Re: &amp;amp;amp; Re: timetraveller &amp;amp;amp; kaiowas; s [Re: CJay]
    #3008766 - 08/16/04 11:41 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Thank you very much for that post :smile: A very interesting read. I do hope you are right. As for my stories about wholesale war, however, I wouldn't say that is entirely unnatural since one of the few constants that has defined modern humans is war and I would say it is a natural, defining attribute. If we can change that then humanity could do great things.

Only one other thing I will say concerning your recognition that as a species we are conscious of our plight. Although it is the first step to ridding ourselves of the causes, humanity has instead made many decisions to the contrary. The people with real power in this world, while aware of environmental destruction, tend not to care and exploit the earth more and more. Although I hope we will find a solution and that may well conceivably lie in space, I wouldn't hold your breath :P

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Zoso_UK]
    #3009257 - 08/16/04 02:11 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Zoso_UK said:
Yes, man is naturally occurring.

No, his creations are not thus automatically naturally occurring.

There are natural processes in the world and artificial processes. Indeed, these artificial processes (e.g. plastic) might be the product of a natural process (e.g. man). However, no matter how hard we try, we will never find these artificial processes occurring in nature. Although almost everything artificial that man produces in some way mimics a corresponding natural process, this does not make man's artifical creations natural. Particularly since they invariably subdue and destroy nature.




Are diamonds naturally occuring? Would they exist if it were not for the naturally occuring processes which cause them to form?

Does oxygen exist naturally in the universe? Would it exist at all if it were not for stars "changing" hydrogen and helium into heavier atoms?

My point is: nothing other than hydrogen and a little helium would exist "naturally" if it were not for other "naturally occuring" processes which serve to change one thing into another. No one would argue that a star or a volcano is not "natural"...and most people would not argue that the products of a star or volcano are "not natural" - because they are.

So if you view all the products of nature's processes as natural themselves, why do you view the products of one very specific process (human creativity) to be "un-natural"?

Unless, of course, you view humans themselves as separate from nature...which (quite obviously) I do not :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Zoso_UK]
    #3009273 - 08/16/04 02:15 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Basically, I completely agree with you that man is a part of nature. However, what distinguishes our species from every other is that we produce things that do not naturally exist. Thus they are certainly not natural.

The psylocybe mushroom (and related species) are able to "create" a group of chemicals - namely psilocin/psilocybin - which do not exist "naturally" (that is, they do not exist without the psylocybe mushroom). Is psilocybin then a "artificial" or "unnatural" creation?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineZoso_UK
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: trendal]
    #3009295 - 08/16/04 02:20 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

All of your examples exclude things created by life. That is what I am getting at. Not even just human life. Things created by any life process. Diamonds and oxygen do not fall in to this category and so are irrelevant.

The psilocybe mushroom doesn't create the chemical external to itself. The chemical is produced by its natural design.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Zoso_UK]
    #3009345 - 08/16/04 02:28 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Ahh, ok, so you view "life" as "nature" and "everything else" as "not nature"?

The chemical is produced by its natural design.

What if human creativity and invention are produced by "natural design" (ie: perhaps it is "natural" for humans to create new things - it is part of our fundamental design and the way we function)?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineZoso_UK
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: trendal]
    #3009396 - 08/16/04 02:37 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Lol! Life is clearly a very distinct part of Nature from the inanimate parts of nature like rocks and wind. To group living nature with non-living nature is a gross oversimplification of nature.

As for whether human inventions are part of their natural design. Perhaps, if it were we would feel content as a species to follow our design. Humanity as a species is, however, anything but content and very few people have a feeling of definite purpose in their lives. The feeling that comes with following one's natural design whatever that may be. I'm certainly not suggesting that human creativity and invention aren't a part of our design. On the contrary it seems that they are since all human cultures worldwide use tools. However, this doesn't mean that everything we create or invent is part of our natural design. We can produce things that help neither ourselves nor the environment and it wouldn't make sense to say that these things are part of our natural design.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Zoso_UK]
    #3009596 - 08/16/04 03:15 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Well then, it looks like we have a fundamental difference in opinions/viewpoints here! We will have to agree to disagree on this one :wink:

I view "nature" as all that exists - the star is no less "natural" in it's existence and functioning than a sea turtle or dog - and thus all nature can be separated into ever more well-defined subgroups. The sun is not part of the subgroup we can define as "Life"....but Life is a subgroup of the physical existence that stars belong to. Humans, then, are a subgroup of Life. We are not separate, in any way, from the rest of nature (again: all that exists).

From the most all-encompasing level everything is "natural" because everything is part of the group defined as "nature". Physical processes combine, increasing complexity by several orders of magnitude, and we have Life (an extremely complex system of electro-chemical processes). Life is in the business of creation - creating things that would not exist without life. This does not make anything "unnatural" because it all is the natural progression of the universe. These things, chemicals and whatnot, that are created are natural products of the functioning of the universe.

It doesn't take too much imagination to extend this framework one step further: human consciousness, along with the creativity and forward-looking insight that come along with it, is a natural product of the functioning of the universe. One step further: the creations of humans are a natural product of human consciousness, and are thus a natural product of the functioning of nature.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Offlinedeff
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: trendal]
    #3009878 - 08/16/04 04:32 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Yup, my views exactly on nature. Although this poses the question then, if everything is natural, what is the importance of having such a word. This is why I think while everything fits into the term 'natural' as you've clearly shown, the true meaning of nature would have to be that which exists without our conscious construction. In this case, natural is a very subjective word just to try and label the external world from that of humans. Objective nature however, would be as you said, everything.

Basically, dumb word founded on the view that we are seperate from the world.


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OfflineZoso_UK
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: deff]
    #3010280 - 08/16/04 06:52 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Although I can see the logic in your thinking, you are right in that we will have to agree to differ. I see the universe as being divided in to two categories - life and non-life. Living things in the universe are quintessentially different from non-living things for many reasons - the will to survive, the ordered positioning of chemicals creating purpose... these are but two of them. I also believe that living entities can function according to their design (in tune with nature) or against their design (unnaturally). With simple creatures, their design is obvious (for instance, an ameoba exists to reproduce and survive and nothing else) but as the complexity of creatures increases so does their design brief. As far what our design in nature is, I don't know. However, I don't believe this earth would create life in order to destroy the earth which is what mankind at large is doing so I would deem man's current path unnatural or out of tune with nature.

I see that the foundation of our beliefs is fundamentally different and I don't know which is correct but thanks for the debate :smile:

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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Zoso_UK]
    #3010292 - 08/16/04 06:56 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

:thumbup:  to trendal Cjay, and Zoso_UK


great thread this has turned into. 

I have thought aboiut this for a little bit, and for the most part I'm going to have to go with what man creates is natural.  that doens't mean though, that what man creates, flows with nature.

we could do a whole hell of a lot better job flowing with nature.  it seems that more technology we make, the war like games with play with each other leads to more destruction.  we've always had these war like tnedencies as humans, but with the increase in technology, we have to really look at ourselves and the power we can create. 

what man does a lot is it tries to duplicate what nature already has provided, and most of the time, it's subpar to nature itself. 

does that mean we go back...no...but I think we should up our standards as a species, becase in my view our actions as a race on a whole doesn't flow with nature very well.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Invisiblebandaid
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Zoso_UK]
    #3010304 - 08/16/04 06:59 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

You guys rule, I dont know if I could learn what I do here so easily and so in-sync in the order the questions and answers arise :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: bandaid]
    #3010549 - 08/16/04 07:48 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

bandaid said:
Quote:

Shroomism said:
What do you mean poisoning, suffocation, bone crushing, etc etc.. that sounds more like cruel things humans do to each other than something nature does.



Its interesting you put it that way because these are regular things animals do to other animals every day. Its as if your trying to seperate the bad in nature as if it wasnt there and not accepting it, Im not saying your doing that but it sounds like it.





There is a difference, I think.. in animals killing other animals for survival, and human killing other animals or humans for war or "sport", or the variety of other reasons that don't have to do with survival.
I'm not separating the "bad" in nature, I see bad as completely subjective. When the fox eats the rabbit, it is 'bad' for the rabbit, but "good" for the fox. The tidal wave may be "bad" for the community that gets wiped out from it, but perhaps it is "good" for the Earth or nearby ocean and forests that were suffering from that community's destructive actions. There is the yin to the yang. However, I fail to see nuclear weapons, or pollution, as good for anyone, and that is the difference of which I speak. Animals live in harmony with nature in that they do not usually take more than they need for survival, and they do not "battle" against nature.

I'm not separating the bad, I am saying the bad exists as a part of the whole and is completely subjective.


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Shroomism]
    #3010689 - 08/16/04 08:17 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

ya well, if only nature would send a massive title wave to wipe out the entire US.. too bad earth doesen't have a consciousness...I think what some of those guys were arguing is how nature not only meaning animals killing each other for survival but the entire nature of the planet, the bone crushing as the avalacnhe kills the baby seals... I mean, what is a seal in the big picture of it all? but what is a human in the big picture, the power to create and change, humans are against nature

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: 2Experimental]
    #3010715 - 08/16/04 08:24 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

the avalanche kills the baby seals, so we compete by clubbing them to death

Earth doesn't have a consciousness? Is that the latest proven scientific fact?


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: How do you view nature so blissfully? [Re: Shroomism]
    #3010754 - 08/16/04 08:34 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

yes we club them, but that just shows we mimic nature right? does that mean because we use sticks and nature uses ice it is justifiable, I would hope not... and I don't think the earth has a consciousness like we would talk about human concsciousness... what were you refering to

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