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OfflineRaadt
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Registered: 06/07/02
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Re: need the pros help [Re: fastfred]
    #3000654 - 08/13/04 12:21 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I wasn't talking about making a grain jar with a verm layer. I was talking about making a grain jar, and leaving a pinhole open. Don't tape it shut or anything. See what happens. I mean obviously this isn't logical. But it will prove my point about a pinhole. Have you ever seen or used a laser particle counter? The particle density in the spore laden air is insanely high. Through a flowhood of course it is not. But who uses the PF tek and has a flowhood, i'm going to venture to assume you do not own one? maybe you grow under your bed also?

I am not saying the verm layer is absolutely necessary, and more nutrients are a better idea if you have great aseptic technique. But for those who want to grow mushrooms and not have to wear masks, and lysol the shit out of their whole room and choke on it, just heat the needle and innoc... i think the verm layer is a better idea. The pf tek is rather foolproof regardless, but i don't see a reason to omit the layer if you are new to growing, or do not want to put the money or effort into a flowhood.

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OfflineRaadt
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Posts: 2,107
Loc: azurescending
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Re: need the pros help [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3000664 - 08/13/04 12:24 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I disagree. I do not think you would have much of a contam issue if you left the foil off on a pf cake with the verm layer. Maybe 10%. 1 of 10 is not overly detremental to your harvest.

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: need the pros help [Re: hyphae]
    #3000916 - 08/13/04 01:28 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

dcyans said:FF Leave the cakes in direct contact with the perlite? thats been a nono for years (clue) contam city and can also lead to oversaturation of the cakes.




Worked great for me! The mycelium simply loves it. It grows down into the perlite about 1/8-1/4 inch and even puts out plenty of pins directly from the perlite.

The only time I've had problems with it is when using old monoculture. The newer cakes(of the old culture) contamed soon after the first flush, while the other cakes(about 3-4 flushes older) stayed uncontaminated. That's pretty amazing because the newer cakes (of older culture) were completely covered by green mold, yet the other(almost spent) cakes seemed resistant to the mold.

I remember when the idea of using perlite first came out. There was quite a bit of debate about weather to put them on top of lids or not. The amazing benefits of mycelial contact with the perlite soon convinced me that direct contact was the way to go. If your cakes are getting oversaturated, then you need a thicker perlite layer or less water.


Quote:

ALSO have ya ever heard of double ending cakes? this actually leads to better yields.




I've heard of it, but never tried it. It just seems to me that it reduces your amount of substrate even more.

The idea is that the extra verm layers hold more water, thus helping the mycelium last longer, correct?

That idea makes sense only if your cakes aren't getting enough water in the first place. Direct contact with the perlite will give them all the water they need.


Quote:

Your (nothing personal) kinda talking like a newbie but keep on this is getting very enlightening.




Frankly, I'm surprised that we're even discussing PF jars and verm layers in the "advanced cultivation" forum. I'm also surprised that you would call somebody a "newbie" just because they don't follow some cookie cutter tek exactly word for word. I haven't been in the game for years so I don't know about all the advancements and conclusions that have been reached over the past 5 years or so. From what I see now, there hasn't been any amazing leaps forward since the PF tek with perlite. At least as far as small scale goes.


Quote:

Ya know I've been around for years and have stayed away from the Shroomery bc of this sort of stuff and decided to mod at a sister site instead but the draw of teaching has brought me back.




I'm not sure what you mean... This is a great discussion IMO. I guess I have unorthodox views on the verm layer, perlite, and fanning. Just because something is written in a "tek" doesn't make it so IME.

I think one of the biggest problems people have is that they aren't patient enough. A lot of noobs birth their cakes and then 5-6 days later when there are no pins, they start crying "I'm not getting pinning," and try every pinning tek that has ever been written. They increase the light, they fan more, they scratch the surface, they case, they cold shock, they inject water, they try dunking, and so on and so forth. Then when they get pins at 8-14 days they exclaim, "Tek X worked wonders!" and pat themselves on the back thinking "I saved my crop, I need to use all these teks right from the start."

I'm not saying you are one of these people dcyans, in fact I know you're not, but I think it explains the proliferation of marginally useful teks. I just think that there is no reason to close the book on discussing the usefulness of different methods. I've certainly seen nothing to lead me to believe that these questions are definitively answered.


-FF

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Offlinehyphae
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Re: need the pros help [Re: fastfred]
    #3001366 - 08/13/04 02:57 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

FF what do you use to keep the buildup of stagnant water clean? do you use h2o2 at all with your perlite/water?

Yes good debate for sure! "I just think that there is no reason to close the book on discussing the usefulness of different methods." I couldn't agree more.

About double ending it's added after the birth of your cake so there's no reduction in substrate at all. It's exactly like your perlite wicking except perlite stays.

I've never said anyone needs to follow anything exactly because results vary But if your going to follow a tek for the first time you had better follow it exactly as discribed to get the exact same results. Now us more advanced growers can see immediately where we might possibly like to make changes and we make these decisions based on experience which newbies do not have. That is my point :wink: well at least one of them :wink: I see much of what i'm saying is getting well they should do this and they should do that so that doesn't happen well hell ya they should! but certain things cut down on peoples failures bc of their ignorance of growing for the first time. I've been growing for over 20yrs. and I've seen quite a few peeps that just like to do things the opposite or simple just like to knit pick without realizing it's not the tek were talking about it's the concept of learning and understanding for the first time. You will confuse the newbie no doubt in my mind. Short story I went to school for 2yrs. to learn a new trade well I got my degree early and started working in the real world and I kinda had to laugh bc the really world was different than school things were done differently follow me? Anyway I soon became aware that school was only meant to prepare us and only gave us a general overview of what to expect, this is where we differ. My view is that of a teacher not the student, sometimes knowledge can be a bad thing with certain people if they try to teach people that have no clue, they often omit pertinent information that will make the difference between uh? and AH! I see! the second one is what I live for FF that and the occasional AH! I see coming from me :wink: I to am always learning. Anyway I'm not implying you are a newbie or a student or that It's my way or the highway but we all need a datum plane to start with FF. GL and I'm glad to see you around! :peace:

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: need the pros help [Re: hyphae]
    #3001625 - 08/13/04 04:02 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

dcyans said:
FF what do you use to keep the buildup of stagnant water clean? do you use h2o2 at all with your perlite/water?




I used h2o2 and sometimes iodine. I also got decent results with just plain distilled h2o.


Quote:

About double ending it's added after the birth of your cake so there's no reduction in substrate at all.




I'll have to try it sometime, it sounds pretty useful though. Having a buffer between the perlite and the substrate might work even better than direct contact. I had read the tek, but it's easy to get the specific details confused since there are so many different teks. Now that I think about it... I have cased the tops of cakes before, but since I don't usually use the verm layer it was still a single ended casing.


Quote:

I've never said anyone needs to follow anything exactly because results vary But if your going to follow a tek for the first time you had better follow it exactly as discribed to get the exact same results.




The original poster mentioned that he had been growing for 2+ years and had a fully equipped lab...

I agree that first time growers need to follow the PF tek, or another simple tek, to the letter. I actually read a post on the ADM newsgroup where a noob had licked his cakes! I laughed long and hard about that one. He had spotted some yellow beads of mycelium waste, and actually licked them! Somebody actually had to remind him not to do things that aren't part of the PF tek!

I don't concern myself with stuff like that because it's been said 1000 times before that if it's your first grow, follow the tek exactly. If they won't heed that advice, then they don't deserve to succeed!

I'm glad that you and others take the time to explain things to the noobs. As for myself, I think that the basic teks like PF tek are so close to perfection(for noobs), that there is little I can add.


-FF

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