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InvisibleSpeeker

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: FastFred's Media Cookbook [Re: ragadinks]
    #3022292 - 08/19/04 06:13 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

And Mr.Paul Stamets says in GGMM:
Quote:

Often the medium upon which a culture is grown becomes the source of contamination. Insufficient sterilization is usually the cause. Standard sterilization time for most liquid media is only 15-20 minutes at 15 psi or 250 F. (121 C.). However, this exposure time is far too brief for many of the endospore-forming bacteria prevalent in the additives currently employed by cultivators. I recommend at least 40 minutes @ 15 psi for malt extract or potato dextrose agars.




:wink:

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Offlineragadinks
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Re: FastFred's Media Cookbook [Re: Speeker]
    #3022356 - 08/19/04 06:54 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Good point :wink:.

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: FastFred's Media Cookbook [Re: ragadinks]
    #3023678 - 08/19/04 01:32 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

What is Stamets talking about?

"However, this exposure time is far too brief for many of the endospore-forming bacteria prevalent in the additives currently employed by cultivators."

What additives? 15-20 Minutes is the standard time... If you are using standard media the standard time that has worked for decades for microbiologists is fine. If you use a non-standard sterilization time, then you're not making standard media. You're making overcooked, non-standard media.

Cooking your malt as long as Stamets suggests may caramelize it. I highly doubt that the FDA and the Bacteriological Analytical Manual, 8th Edition, Revision A, 1998 don't know how to sterilize media. They recommend 15 min @ 121 deg C. That is the de facto standard. Anything more is wasteful overcooking. If you want to be safe go for 20 min.

I realize that dissing Stamets is a sure way to get flamed, but in this case I think Stamets is out of his head and overstepping his bounds. He may have had fine success with overcooking his media, but that doesn't provide any reason to dispute the fact that 15-20 minutes will sterilize PDA, PDY, and MEA just fine and is the undisputed and fully standardized way to sterilize media.


-FF

Edited by fastfred (08/19/04 03:56 PM)

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Re: FastFred's Media Cookbook [Re: fastfred]
    #3023728 - 08/19/04 01:44 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Hmm, I think it depend on what kind of additives you are adding.
Stamets uses soil, sawdust and stuff like this in order to keep the mycelium "busy".
Maybe that's why he uses that long sterilization times?
I myself have reduced the sterilization times to 15 minutes and had no problems so far even when using a bit of sawdust as additive and not adding peroxide at all.

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OfflineRaadt
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Re: FastFred's Media Cookbook [Re: fastfred]
    #3023751 - 08/19/04 01:48 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

FF:

You are wrong. Longer exposure to the same temperature will not cause anything to caramelize any differently. Caramelization occurs at ~320f, 250 is 250 is 250 is 250. Otherwise, wouldn't your sugars in your grains caramelize as well?

From now on please refer to a reference if you are posting something such as media will caramelize if you cook it longer than 20 minutes. Because you're looking more and more a fool, to me.

I have cooked media (which i had ground grain in) for 45 minutes. And I have never had any such problem.

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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: FastFred's Media Cookbook [Re: Raadt]
    #3023805 - 08/19/04 02:01 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking/candy/caramels-story.html

"Caramels are the chewy candies you are familiar with. They?re made by cooking sugar, cream, corn syrup, and butter to 245? F. Their brown color comes from a reaction between the sugar and the protein in the cream. This reaction is called the Maillard reaction, after the French scientist who discovered it. The rich brown color of toasted nuts and barbecued meats also comes from the Maillard reaction.

Put simply, the Maillard reaction occurs when part of the sugar molecule (the aldehyde group, if you must know) reacts with the nitrogen part of the protein molecule (an amino group). The resulting series of reactions is not well understood even by food scientists, but it leads to the brown color and many flavorful compounds that are yet to be identified."

So the term used in mushroom circles "caramelisation" is actually incorrect and should be "Maillard reaction".

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: FastFred's Media Cookbook [Re: Anno]
    #3024141 - 08/19/04 03:17 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I'm just telling you guys the standard wisdom here... And out come people calling me a fool and asking for citations! Why don't you guys come up with some citations, you are the ones telling me information that is contrary to every bit of literature that I've read.

Where is your citation that carmelization only occurs at +320F? Everything I've read suggests that carmelization is a problem when making media. None of these people are using super high sterilization temps and they go to great lengths to prevent carmelization.

If you're going to call me a fool, you better have some good information, otherwise you end up looking not only foolish, but arrogant.

It also makes sense that different sugars carmelize differently and that other ingredients in the media affect carmelization.

"YPD will turn a rich brown color on autoclaving due to carmelization of the dextrose." -Forrest Spencer, Positional Cloning Course, Cold Spring Harbor 1998

"Carmelization - Cane sugar deteriorates in heated conditions to form a colored breakdown known as carmelization." -Sugar Confections How candies are made by The Nut Factory

"If Dextrose is added before autoclaving, the sterilized medium will be darker due to carmelization of the sugar. Otherwise, it is often useful to have sterile YP medium to which different carbon sources (e.g., Dextrose, Galactose, Glycerol) can be added." -bioProtocol a Bio online site

"Sorbose (used to induce colonial growth) caramelizes when autoclaved if medium N or another medium containing NH4 is used. A brown breakdown product is produced. This does not usually seem to affect colonialization. But carmelization can be avoided by autoclaving a sorbose-glucose-fructose 2OX solution separately from the medium and combining after sterilization (D.E.A. Catcheside), or more simply by substituting Synthetic Cross medium (which is NH4-free) for Medium N (T. Legerton)." -David D. Perkins - Hints and precautions for the care, feeding and breeding of Neurospora

"Carmelization: brown color due to breakdown of sugars at high temperatures" -Carbohydrates Chapter 3

"To reducecarmelization, the L-sorbose was autoclaved separately fromthe other ingredients." -USE OF RAPD, ENZYME ACTIVITY STAINING, AND COLONY SIZE TO DIFFERENTIATE PHYTOPATHOGENIC FUZARIUM OXYSPORUM ISOLATES FROM IRAN


-FF

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Re: FastFred's Media Cookbook [Re: Anno]
    #3024212 - 08/19/04 03:30 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Here s a good and detailed paper about the "Maillard reaction" and it seems that the thing are not so easy:
The reaction can take place below 245? F (118,3? C) and depends very much on the kind of sugar, water content, PH, duration and temperature of the reaction and available oxygen.
So it very probable that heating at 121? C for some time starts the "Maillard reaction". The question is if the caramelization is strong enough to influence the growth of the mycelium.
Some agar recipes recommend a short sterilization time and the addition of activated charcoal in order to avoid chemical byproducts of the sterilization process that are harmful to the mycelium.

The following excerpt is from this paper:

Quote:

1. Murashige & Skoog medium (MS) (Table 5) was supplied with antibiotics (50 ppm streptomycin and ampicillin, 5 ppm benomyl) and then sterile filtered (0.2 um Sartorius cellulose acetate filter). MS was then mixed with an autoclaved agar solution (final agar concentration 1.2%) with 0.05% activated charcoal (to adsorb toxic compounds in autoclaved agar), before addition to 9-cm petri dishes.




The question is if the mentioned toxic compounds are a result of the Maillard reaction or of something else or of a lot of different reactions?

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: FastFred's Media Cookbook [Re: ragadinks]
    #3024246 - 08/19/04 03:42 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

It is my understanding that caramelization is not a scientific term and does not refer to a specific chemical reaction. Instead it refers to multiple reactions with a wide variety of different sugars.

The dictionary says:
caramelization - To convert or be converted into caramel.
caramel - 1. Burnt sugar, used for coloring and sweetening foods.
2. A moderate yellow brown.

Using this definition "caramelization" refers to the heating of sugar which results in darkening or colorization.

That definition fits in line with the usage of the term in relation to media. If it has sugar in it and you cooked it and it darkened... Then it can be said to have undergone some degree of caramelization.


-FF

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Re: FastFred's Media Cookbook [Re: Raadt]
    #3024347 - 08/19/04 04:01 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

You are wrong. Longer exposure to the same temperature will not cause anything to caramelize any differently. Caramelization occurs at ~320f, 250 is 250 is 250 is 250. Otherwise, wouldn't your sugars in your grains caramelize as well?



Yes the do and it seems as if you were wrong ...

Quote:

From now on please refer to a reference if you are posting something such as media will caramelize if you cook it longer than 20 minutes. Because you're looking more and more a fool, to me.



In this case you should come up with reference, shouldn't you ?
Otherwise someone else might look like a fool ...

Quote:

I have cooked media (which i had ground grain in) for 45 minutes. And I have never had any such problem.



As said in another posting: caramelization depends on a lot of factors and not all strains are so sensitive to it.
But you certainly have a more or less small amount of caramelized sugars and I think they are at least lost as a source of nutrition for the mycelium if not harmful.

The point at the whole discussion with you is, that you are quite arrogant to other people and at the same time you do the same things you accuse them to do: You do not back up your statement with profound knowledge.
In this thread you say for example that chanterelles cannot be cultivated - they can ...

I mean the point is that we all make mistake and are sometimes wrong in our statements like you, me and fastred.
But if we would not make mistakes we would not have a discussion going on that might be instructive for some or all of us.
But the discussions in which you take place do not have the goal to gain some information but to show your superiority over the others and that is usually a sign of low self-esteem.

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: FastFred's Media Cookbook [Re: ragadinks]
    #3024469 - 08/19/04 04:24 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks for the great link ragadinks! This should go a long way towards settling the Maillard reaction vs caramelization debate.

The Maillard Reaction: Application to Confectionery Products by C.G.A. Davies & T.P. Labuza

From that paper:
----------------
The Maillard reaction is one of four nonenzymatic browning reactions which occur in
food. The other three are:
1) the degradation of ascorbic acid,
2) lipid peroxidation
3) sugar-sugar caramelization.
[...]
At high temperatures (> 80 oC[176F]) sugar-sugar interactions or the caramelization reaction occurs. This is a complex series of reactions but many of the intermediate flavor compounds and products are similar to those observed for the Maillard reaction.
----------------

So it looks like Raadt is completely wrong... I don't mean to gloat, and I certainly don't want to hurt Raadt's self-esteem... But turnabout is fair play Raadt. Let this be a lesson next time you think about calling someone a fool.


Who is the fool now Raadt?


-FF

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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: FastFred's Media Cookbook [Re: fastfred]
    #3024530 - 08/19/04 04:46 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Who is the fool now Raadt?






I hate to see stuff like this, it kills a good converstation. Let's try to keep it professional, ok?

We are all human, and we all make mistakes. Let us be who we are. (used to be my old sig)

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Offlineragadinks
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Re: FastFred's Media Cookbook [Re: ATWAR]
    #3024542 - 08/19/04 04:50 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I agree - that is going to lead to nowhere ...

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: FastFred's Media Cookbook [Re: ragadinks]
    #3024583 - 08/19/04 05:06 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

It's all well and good to talk about turning the other cheek... But where were you guys when Raadt was calling me a fool?

As I said earlier turnabout is fair play. If Raadt had presented his unsupported ideas about caramelization in a less arrogant way, presented them as conjecture rather than fact, or simply not called me a fool we would not be having this problem.

I think Kid Rock says it best:

A lot of people poke fun and that's alright
But when I start pokin' back they get all uptight
Huh!
You can't cap with the master, son
So sit your ass down before I blast ya one



-FF

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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: FastFred's Media Cookbook [Re: fastfred]
    #3024621 - 08/19/04 05:19 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Have you ever heard two wrongs do not make a right?
Both you and Raadt were wrong for making personal attacks agained one another. We would not be having this problem if you just let it go when the info was shown to be wrong. If you had just left it, there would be no continuation of the problem, instead you added to it... Like I said, things like this kill a thread...

Ones actions speak very much about ones character...

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Re: FastFred's Media Cookbook [Re: fastfred]
    #3024662 - 08/19/04 05:29 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I agree with ATWAR.
Raadt was wrong and arrogant but now it looks like as if you wanted to take his place ...

For me this place should not be a battlefield were the other one wins and the other one looses but a place where you can meet nice people and learn something about mushrooms.
So, and that's the last posting I will loose about shitty that topic anymore ...

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Offlinefugu
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Re: FastFred's Media Cookbook [Re: ragadinks]
    #3024814 - 08/19/04 05:59 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

  :thumbup:


--------------------
mushroom culture history making ...Mr. Allan is the best .....

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: FastFred's Media Cookbook [Re: fugu]
    #3025057 - 08/19/04 06:42 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

5 posts have have now been wasted bitching and moaning about 1 line of text which was 100% fair play.

Two wrongs don't make a right... and 6 wrongs is even worse.

I hope you guys will grow up and start putting some content in your posts rather than just bitching about the people who are actually adding content to this board.

If you can't handle a spirited discussion which sometimes escalates because of some turnabout, then I suggest you guys find one of those "kid-safe" sites where even the most minor putdown is deleted before it ever gets posted.

If that doesn't appeal to you, then grow up and quit your worthless bitching.

-FF

P.S. Raadt may have been wrong and even insulted the correct posters, but at least he's grown up enough to take his lumps and not whine and cry about it like a bunch of babies.

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Anonymous

Re: FastFred's Media Cookbook [Re: fastfred]
    #3025271 - 08/19/04 07:18 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

ROFLMAO!

I just joined and your media cookbook has been a big help for me fastfred.

I think you are fully justified in calling Raadt a fool. He'll be much more carefull about talking jive and dissin' others in the future I bet.

As for the rest of the people complaining about you, what a bunch of whiners. It's stupid how many people think it's cool to bitch about bitching. Makes them look like a bunch of bitches. I hope the rest of the site is more constructive and less bitchy.

They'll probably write a dozen posts to bitch about this post! Oh, well I have what I need anyway. Go ahead and bitch on ATWAR, ragadinks, and the rest of the bitches.

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Anonymous

Re: FastFred's Media Cookbook [Re: ]
    #3025302 - 08/19/04 07:24 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Damn, with all that bitching I forgot to ask my question. What is the best media for a noob like me? I can't get anything fancy.

Also sorry if I upset any of the grand poo-bitches of this board with my anti-bitch bitching.

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