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InvisibleSwami
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Survival of the fittest
    #2989268 - 08/11/04 03:03 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

This is an after-the-fact meaningless "analysis". As this statement is not predictive it has no value.

Which animals are the fittest? The fastest? Eagles are the fastest at over 120mph and are almost extinct.

Which animals are the fittest? The most prolific? Codfish were once the most plentiful fish in the ocean and are now in danger.

Which animals are the fittest? The most adaptive? Chameleon populations are down dramatically.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Survival of the fittest [Re: Swami]
    #2989298 - 08/11/04 03:12 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

It sounds like all of those animals are becoming extinct/in danger due to other [and fitter] animals and perhaps humans as well? Many animals can and do suffer from the human population indirectly let alone directly.

If this is the case, then does the "Survival of the Fittest" not hold true?



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Survival of the fittest [Re: Swami]
    #2989309 - 08/11/04 03:14 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Survival of the most adapting would prove to be true in the long run. Survival of the fittest, those fit to best survive, would be those that can stand chaos and change and still survive

My vote goes to the cockroach


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Survival of the fittest [Re: Swami]
    #2989315 - 08/11/04 03:15 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

'Fit' refers to survival abilities. If they are endangered or instinct, then they are not good examples of 'fit' species.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Survival of the fittest [Re: deff]
    #2989325 - 08/11/04 03:19 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

true. Doesnt matter how fast, strong or smart an animal is, unless it can adapt to having humans turn its habitat into a parking lot, its toast.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Survival of the fittest [Re: Ravus]
    #2989365 - 08/11/04 03:27 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Survival of the most adapting would prove to be true in the long run.

True, but meaningless. As we are unable to predict which species will survive a thousand years from now and can only tell the "fittest" by their mere survival alone, what value do you see this statement has in adding to the knowledge base of environmental and evolutionary forces?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Survival of the fittest [Re: Swami]
    #2989438 - 08/11/04 03:44 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)


"True, but meaningless. As we are unable to predict which species will survive a thousand years from now and can only tell the "fittest" by their mere survival alone, what value do you see this statement has in adding to the knowledge base of environmental and evolutionary forces? "

what a wierd thing to say.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Survival of the fittest [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2989451 - 08/11/04 03:46 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

What is "wierd" about it? I can predict the winner of a lottery 100% of the time AFTER it happens. So what? Does that mean anything to you?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Survival of the fittest [Re: Swami]
    #2989461 - 08/11/04 03:48 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Why do we need to predict it? The whole thing is unfolding around us. Our idea of the natural selection process, our acknowledgement of it, does not change the fact it would occur without us. I think we came up with this term merely to try and explain the evolution of independant traits. (ie- giraffes with longer necks = more food = higher chance of survival = more chance to reproduce = more long neck giraffes).


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Survival of the fittest [Re: Swami]
    #2989523 - 08/11/04 04:04 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

what i find wierd about it is that you appear to be jumping all over him for making a 'useless' statemtnt (pragmatically speaking) and yet he was responding to your thread, which you introduced by saying you had realised was just as useless.

If you feel statements that dont 'add to the body of knowledge about enviromental evolution' (or whatever) are not worth making (and this is already a strange belief) , than why did you post this thread? and if you do think its ok to say things that dont nescessarily push the borders of a field of science, why jump on him like that?


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Survival of the fittest [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2989559 - 08/11/04 04:15 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Why jump on Swami for jumping on Ravus when you don't jump on yourself? :smile:

Dammit deff, shut the fuck up you fag.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Survival of the fittest [Re: deff]
    #2989567 - 08/11/04 04:17 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

i jump on someones statement not when i feel it disagrees with my own belief, but when i feel it is unnescessarily and hypocritacly harsh on someone and discouraging of free discussion.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Survival of the fittest [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2989572 - 08/11/04 04:18 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

I was trying to make a funny, but I can see it failed miserably :frown:


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Survival of the fittest [Re: deff]
    #2989581 - 08/11/04 04:22 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

humour is often lost in the translation...

i'll try to lighten up
:grin: :stoned:


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Survival of the fittest [Re: Swami]
    #2989588 - 08/11/04 04:24 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Survival of the most adapting would prove to be true in the long run.

True, but meaningless. As we are unable to predict which species will survive a thousand years from now and can only tell the "fittest" by their mere survival alone, what value do you see this statement has in adding to the knowledge base of environmental and evolutionary forces?




True, because we don't have the proper knowledge of it. We cannot predict evolution in the longrun because of chaos theory, and just plain chaos. One little action might change all evolution and life forever

We can predict evolution like we can predict the point of a space an electron is at. Beyond our general false logic and perceptions, everything becomes probability to the human sciences until we can see ahead in time

Survival of the fittest still exists, whether you can predict it or not. Just because it is beyond the grasp of humans, it becomes "meaningless?"


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Survival of the fittest [Re: Ravus]
    #2989614 - 08/11/04 04:32 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Well, does "meaning" exist outside of our illusioned existence? Or atleast our meaning of meaning of meaning of meaning of meaning of meaning of meaning of meaning of meaning of meaning of meaning of meaning of meaning of meaning of meaning of meaning of meaning of meaning of meaning of meaning of meaning of meaning of meaning of meaning of meaning of.. oh gawd not again XD


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Survival of the fittest [Re: Ravus]
    #2989628 - 08/11/04 04:36 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Saying sharks are the fittest (they are way down in population worldwide) because they have been successful for 500 millions years only points towards the past and gives us no more information than saying they still exist. This tells us nothing of the mechanism for survival nor anything about the future. Such "information" has no value to anyone.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleAntiMeme
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Re: Survival of the fittest [Re: Swami]
    #2991282 - 08/11/04 03:27 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Do you mean that the theory of evolution by natural selection is without any value since it has no power of prediction?

If that's what you're saying, here is a nicely written refutation:

http://www12.canvas.ne.jp/peters/colin/fitness.html

Here is another:

http://www.jimloy.com/biology/natural.htm

Pop biology interpretations of "survival of the fittest" as something we can use to predict the future is of course rubbish and leads to strange ideas like eugenics.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Survival of the fittest [Re: Swami]
    #2991331 - 08/11/04 03:43 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

"True, but meaningless. As we are unable to predict which species will survive a thousand years from now and can only tell the "fittest" by their mere survival alone"

you can't predict the future swami...humans can kill themselves off and yet at this present time, we are the "fittest" animals.

as skorp pointed out, the animal's physical attributes aren't the only thing that matters when it comes to survival.

the ever changing environment matters. hell, a meteor could come from the sky and wipe everything out, who's the fittest then??


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Invisibletoad857
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Re: Survival of the fittest [Re: Swami]
    #2991463 - 08/11/04 04:19 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

i find it interesting how no one's really brought up how much the changing environment affects/RULES evolution.

and why do we pick sharks? fuck sharks. bacteria and molds dominate this world hands down. 1 million years from now bacteria will be here. we will not.

their ability to reproduce/change rapidly is what makes their species the most fit to SURVIVE in the long run.


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