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OfflineBarbi
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Registered: 04/22/02
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The economy
    #2979755 - 08/09/04 01:03 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

So, in light of my other recents posts, I'm curious as to who here has self proclaimed economic experitise, and what the PAL populace thinks should be done to fix our current economical issues and troubles.

Debate.


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InvisibleRavus
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Registered: 07/18/03
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Re: The economy [Re: Barbi]
    #2979798 - 08/09/04 01:20 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I don't claim to have any economical expertise, but as far as helping to fix our current economical troubles, I'd say stopping the war on drugs and legalizing and taxing marijuana is a good first step. That'd save us at least 40 billion dollars annually, not including the money we spend on jailing these "criminals", and the profit we could make from marijuana would help boost the economy, not to mention the extra legitimate jobs it would provide

That is all


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The economy [Re: Barbi]
    #2979801 - 08/09/04 01:21 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

The best way to fix our current economic issues and troubles is to forbid government from having anything to do with the economy. And I mean anything -- including printing currency.

The only "exception" (and this is not really an exception) would be cases of fraud, since fraud is by extension an initiation of force and thus properly falls under the jurisdiction of the judicial system.

pinky


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OfflineBarbi
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Re: The economy [Re: Ravus]
    #2979842 - 08/09/04 01:34 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
I don't claim to have any economical expertise, but as far as helping to fix our current economical troubles, I'd say stopping the war on drugs and legalizing and taxing marijuana is a good first step. That'd save us at least 40 billion dollars annually, not including the money we spend on jailing these "criminals", and the profit we could make from marijuana would help boost the economy, not to mention the extra legitimate jobs it would provide

That is all




So, by legalizing or just 'stopping' the war on drugs campaign. How much money do you think we would LOSE by having an addicted american public, say, on heroin and crack, or increased spending for education and rehabiliation ( a requirement in my eyes if the 'war' stops)

Keep in mind I'm merely debating for information, I dont necessarily think the war on drugs is good so dont attack me on that crap.


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OfflineBarbi
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Re: The economy [Re: Phred]
    #2979847 - 08/09/04 01:35 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
The best way to fix our current economic issues and troubles is to forbid government from having anything to do with the economy. And I mean anything -- including printing currency.

The only "exception" (and this is not really an exception) would be cases of fraud, since fraud is by extension an initiation of force and thus properly falls under the jurisdiction of the judicial system.

pinky




who exactly would control it then? prevent shit from getting out of hand? Would this mean disposing of all taxes related to economy as well?


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OfflineBarbi
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Re: The economy [Re: Barbi]
    #2979855 - 08/09/04 01:37 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Oh, Please also state your general party favor/choice/ideals if you would also. I'd just like to know who falls where, and how their viwpoint is.

I consider myself of no party, I think all parties have good things to offer as well as bad things. I try to stay within the bounds of reason and logic without religious or other such nonsense getting in the way.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The economy [Re: Barbi]
    #2979888 - 08/09/04 01:53 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Well, it's obvious the current situation has failed. "State prison budgets are growing twice as fast as spending on public colleges and universities... Despite the exponential growth in spending on the drug war, illicit drugs are cheaper and purer than they were two decades ago,(8) and continue to be readily available. In addition, according to White House estimates, 57% of Americans in need of drug treatment do not receive it, in spite of its proven cost effectiveness in reducing drug use.(9)"
http://www.drugpolicy.org/library/factsheets/economiccons/fact_economic.cfm

We spend over $40 billion annually on the war on drugs, yet we have nothing to show for it, and in fact the purity of cocaine and heroin are rising. If we're working for the kids, then even the kids are showing we've failed.
"According to a 1999 survey by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, drugs continue to be widely available to America's high school students. Almost 90% of twelfth graders participating in the survey said that marijuana was "very easy" or "fairly easy" to get, over 47% said cocaine was "very easy" or "fairly easy" to get and more than 32% said that heroin was "very easy" or "fairly easy" to get."

Things can't get much worse, and so we have two viable options.
1) Give up the War on Drugs completely, not necessarily legalizing them, but stop arresting people for them or
2) Switch funds from incarceration to rehabilitation

If somebody needs rehabiliation, for example, we could provide it to them under a loan, which they would then have to repay by community service.

Now, on to legalizing marijuana:
In 2002, over 14 million Americans age 12 and older used marijuana at least once in the month prior to being surveyed, and 12.2 percent of past year marijuana users used marijuana on 300 or more days in the past 12 months. This translates into 3.1 million people using marijuana on a daily or almost daily basis over a 12-month period(1).
http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofax/marijuana.html

3.1 million people use marijuana on a daily basis then. We lower the price of marijuana, and say each of these people spend 25 dollars a week on marijuana, and 10 dollars of that is in taxes (this is taken from about what cigarette smokers spend, about 25 dollars a week, some spend more and some less.)

$10 x 52 weeks = $520 a year x 3,100,000 = $1,612,000,000 a year for taxes! Over ten years, that equals over $16,120,000,000 returned. Not to mention, the budding  :smile: marijuana business would draw much tourism, provide tens of thousands of more jobs, create new stores all over the country, and the benefits would go on. We could start earning back our money we've spent on this ridiculous drug war

That is how I would help the economy


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The economy [Re: Barbi]
    #2979899 - 08/09/04 01:57 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

My general party ideas, well, I don't associate myself with any party, but libertarianism comes closest to my mindset, though I don't necessarily believe we should have an all out libertarian government as much as just starting to integrate new libertarian policies into our existing government

I believe that people should have the freedom to do what they want as long as it harms no one else, and that rather than having majority rules, we should just set out a framework that gives individuals the most power to themselves as long as it harms no one else


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: The economy [Re: Phred]
    #2979901 - 08/09/04 01:57 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
The best way to fix our current economic issues and troubles is to forbid government from having anything to do with the economy. And I mean anything -- including printing currency.






:lol: :lol: you should be a comedian ....i mean you cant possibly think that would fix anything !! :lol:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The economy [Re: Barbi]
    #2979903 - 08/09/04 01:57 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

mndfreeze asks:

who exactly would control it then?

No one. Why do people voluntarily exchanging goods and services amongst themselves need to be controlled?

prevent shit from getting out of hand?

Elaborate, please. Give us a specific example of what to you means "getting out of hand".

Would this mean disposing of all taxes related to economy as well?

If you are asking how such a government would acquire the necessary funds to carry out its legitimate functions (military, cops, and courts), that is a side topic for a different thread, and one that has been argued in this forum on at least a dozen different occasions. The brief answer is that no one has demonstrated conclusively that the legitimate functions of government cannot be sufficiently funded through non-coercive methods of fund-raising such as lotteries, bequeathments, voluntary donations, contract insurance and others I am too tired to remember this early in the morning.

pinky

ps -- my political affiliation is Laissez-faire Capitalist. The US political party which is the closest fit to that designation would be the US Libertarian Party.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The economy [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2979926 - 08/09/04 02:05 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

KingOfTheThing writes:

i mean you cant possibly think that would fix anything !!

It would fix "our current economical issues and troubles", which is what the question asked.

Why do you think it wouldn't? Can you give us a few specific examples of a current economic trouble or issue where we'd be worse off with no government involvement in the economy?

pinky


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: The economy [Re: Phred]
    #2979937 - 08/09/04 02:07 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

go back to the turn of the century...what were working conditions like??? did corporations churn out unsafe products??? was there a minimum wage?? were children working???


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OfflineBleaK
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Registered: 06/24/02
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Re: The economy [Re: Phred]
    #2980182 - 08/09/04 03:19 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Why do you think it wouldn't? Can you give us a few specific examples of a current economic trouble or issue where we'd be worse off with no government involvement in the economy?

pinky




how do you define who owns what in the current state?
what about the ppl who have paid for half of their homes?

.. does the money in the system now continue to hold worth?

do people currently in debt re-negotiate the terms?

what about the money the govt owes the federal reserve bank?


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: The economy [Re: Phred]
    #2980681 - 08/09/04 08:48 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Good luck dealing with inflation with no control over interest rates and the money supply.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: The economy [Re: deafpanda]
    #2980802 - 08/09/04 10:25 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

deafpanda said:
Good luck dealing with inflation with no control over interest rates and the money supply.



Apparently you haven't heard about a piece of legislation called 'The Federal Reserve Act.' Which is GOVERNMENT ACTION which has led to a lot a fucked up results. Problems of inflation are caused by countries adopting fiat currencies, central banking and manipulation of the money supply.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: The economy [Re: Evolving]
    #2982498 - 08/09/04 06:10 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Inflation is caused by a) supply not being able to meet demand and b) production costs being pushed up. These factors are outside the government's control. Without being able to curb consumption by raising interest rates you will have a hard time keeping inflation down. Inflation will happen whether the government steps in or not.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: The economy [Re: deafpanda]
    #2982839 - 08/09/04 07:35 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Apparently, you missed this thread. So I will repeat and attempt to clarify what I stated there.

There seems to be confusion regarding the rise in currency denominated prices brought about by the devaluation of currency through the inflation of the money supply with the rise in the value of goods brought about by scarcity (supply and demand). Of course both factors are at work when there is an inflationary monetary policy and a decrease in the availability of goods in relation to demand. What the common man terms 'inflation' is his observation of the rise of prices (aka: 'price inflation'), but this is often a result of monetary inflation. Since the value of goods is normally considered in monetary units, it is understandable that confusion should arise as to what causes the rise in prices. If the money supply remains constant and more goods and services are produced, the value of the money will increase in relation to the value of goods and services, in these instances prices can drop.

So, you are partially correct. Two seperate mechanisms can contribute to the fluctuation in prices, availability of goods or services vs. demand, and the value of a currency (greatly influenced by the money supply). Higher production costs without steady demand may not result in an overall rise in prices paid as items may sit in inventory until the sales prices drop to meet what buyers are willing to pay, or the value of money drops until the real prices (adjusted for the change in the value of money) are what buyers are willing to pay. Rising production costs do not always translate to higher prices - there must be buyers or the asking prices are not realized.

The value of money itself is subject to supply and demand. Understanding the concept of money supply can lead to the conclusion the higher monetary unit denominated production costs are often due to the falling value of the currency (due to the increased money supply) and the upward price pressures this places on various elements in the production stream (labor, raw materials, etc.). The actual value (adjusted for inflation) may remain constant or even drop while the prices rise.

Clear as mud?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: The economy [Re: Evolving]
    #2982878 - 08/09/04 07:48 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Sure, I understand that pumping more money into the system causes inflation aswell. But you recognise that the factors I mentioned are a cause of inflation, so do you think that the market heals itself over time, or otherwise what is your solution?


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