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OfflineLothar121
Marijuanaactivist
Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 105
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
There are more than two choices for president!
    #2975728 - 08/07/04 04:47 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

The problem with American politics is it rides on the coattails of a logical fallacy known as false dichotomy. It is the illusion of two choices, an "either"/"or" scenario that doesn't really exist, although it is now portrayed in the media and our social upbringing as the norm in American politics. It is about perspective, and I consent to acknowledge that the perspective of most Americans is "vote for the lesser of the two evils". I would actually go out and say, fuck that philosophy. Your vote is yours; it doesn't belong to anyone except your being. Voting for the lesser of all evils sounds like the most rational and objective philosophy to me.

Of course, most of you are reading this gawking at what I just said.

"How the fuck does Lothar think anyone is going to win besides a Republican or a Democrat? How dare he even question the norm in society, I mean after all it?s the social norm, we have had a two party system for over one hundred years, and its not going to change."

To people having this thought run through their head, here is my response:

I don't give a shit who is going to win the election. Voting is not about choosing the winner. Voting is about choosing who you want to represent you in office, not choosing the lesser of the two retarded candidates that the media and the biased Commission on Presidential Debates has cooked up. I found an interesting organization that is working on reforming the format and structure of the debate cycle. It's worth a look.

If you wanted more from me on why Kerry and Bush suck so bad, you will have your wish all in good time.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,210
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: There are more than two choices for president! [Re: Lothar121]
    #2975740 - 08/07/04 04:52 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Of course, most of you are reading this gawking at what I just said.


  :rotfl:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: There are more than two choices for president! [Re: Lothar121]
    #2975748 - 08/07/04 04:57 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

Excellent post, though it is not news to many of us here who will be voting for who we think would be the best person for this country as opposed to the lesser of two evils.

Quote:

and the biased Commission on Presidential Debates has cooked up. I found an interesting organization that is working on reforming the format and structure of the debate cycle. It's worth a look.




Open Debates?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineLothar121
Marijuanaactivist
Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 105
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
Re: There are more than two choices for president! [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2975767 - 08/07/04 05:04 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

"Open Debates? "

Yes I apologize, I did think that I edited my post to include the link. Apparently it didn't get through.

http://www.opendebates.org

I would love to see Badnarik and Nader up there debating with Bush and Kerry. I mean why would you oppose unstructured debate? It would allow us all to see the true color of the candidates we are voting on.


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: There are more than two choices for president! [Re: Lothar121]
    #2975778 - 08/07/04 05:09 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

I mean why would you oppose unstructured debate?



Fear of change and a desire to make the populace politically docile.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineLothar121
Marijuanaactivist
Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 105
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
Re: There are more than two choices for president! [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2975781 - 08/07/04 05:10 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

"Fear of change and a desire to make the populace politically docile. "

The truth hurts.


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Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: There are more than two choices for president! [Re: Lothar121]
    #2975785 - 08/07/04 05:12 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

not really. it just makes you realize how hard changing anything is


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OfflineLothar121
Marijuanaactivist
Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 105
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
Re: There are more than two choices for president! [Re: vampirism]
    #2975790 - 08/07/04 05:14 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

"not really. it just makes you realize how hard changing anything is "

Did you read the post or simply read the title of the post and respond?


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 28,363
Re: There are more than two choices for president! [Re: Lothar121]
    #2975793 - 08/07/04 05:15 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

I would also love to see Badnarik and Nader debating Bush and Kerry. Having many parties is good...but...i think in the final election it should be between two canidates only. Otherwise we would never get a president who wins the popular vote. What would be needed is more support for other parties, and a better primary system where these other parties may be able to make the final cut.


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Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: There are more than two choices for president! [Re: Lothar121]
    #2975795 - 08/07/04 05:17 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

i was responding to "the truth hurts"

no shit theres more than 2 choices, im voting green this coming election


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OfflineLothar121
Marijuanaactivist
Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 105
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
Re: There are more than two choices for president! [Re: vampirism]
    #2975798 - 08/07/04 05:20 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

Ahh ok, I thought that was just answering the "there are two choices for president". Glad that wasn't the case, because that would have been a really ignorant response


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
Re: There are more than two choices for president! [Re: DieCommie]
    #2976371 - 08/07/04 08:49 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Having many parties is good...but...i think in the final election it should be between two canidates only.




:thumbup: http://www.fairvote.org/irv/index.html


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
Re: There are more than two choices for president! [Re: Lothar121]
    #2976387 - 08/07/04 08:57 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

oh, and news flash to lothar: you're not a genius who has just come up with a groundbreaking idea.

and the reason we have a party system is in order to prevent a candidate with a small minority of support from winning the elections. before that we have PRIMARIES so that people can vote more for who they want. Now that we have electronic vote couning, IRV is the best solution and should be implemented.


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OfflineLothar121
Marijuanaactivist
Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 105
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
Re: There are more than two choices for president! [Re: Tao]
    #2976519 - 08/07/04 09:57 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

I never really thought I was genius. You said the reason we have a party system is to prevent a candidate with a small minority of support from winning the elections, although that may be an effect of the two party system, that is not the reason why it is in place. The reason we have a 2 party system is because the 2 parties are trying to keep it that way, the commission on national debates is run by a Partisan group instead of a non-part. There have been third parties in the past that have won elections, notably Abraham L. of the Whig party.

The most popular third party candidates were included in certain debates before 1986. This was the beginning of the Republicrat monopoly.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: There are more than two choices for president! [Re: Tao]
    #2978072 - 08/08/04 01:23 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
... the reason we have a party system is in order to prevent a candidate with a small minority of support from winning the elections.



Sorry, you are wrong. There is NOTHING in the constitution to support your assertion. If you can find anything in the writings of the founders to support your position, please show us. Lothar121 has it right.
Quote:

Lothar121 said:
The reason we have a 2 party system is because the 2 parties are trying to keep it that way, the commission on national debates is run by a Partisan group instead of a non-part.



It's all about those in power jealously guarding their power.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
Re: There are more than two choices for president! [Re: Evolving]
    #2982206 - 08/09/04 05:09 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Lothar wrote:
I never really thought I was genius.




sorry, you came across in your writing a bit presumptuous.

Quote:

Evolving wrote:
There is NOTHING in the constitution to support your assertion. If you can find anything in the writings of the founders to support your position, please show us.




I will if you can find where I wrote "the founders created the two party system in order..."

Obviously the party system was not directly created by the founders (wasn't it washington that said something along the lines of 'a party system would be the death of this country'?), but it was inadvertently indirectly created by the system they put in place. I meant that as rational actors making rational choices, over time (notice: 'over time'--it took a while for two solid parties to establish) the population will realize that it is better to compromise some of their beliefs with those who are largely like-minded by joining one of two parties in order to have a better chance at their core beliefs being put forth as long as there are winner-take-all plurality elections without either runoff voting or proportional representation this is the same reasoning explaining why the two parties have generally converged in order to capture swing voters in the middle.


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: There are more than two choices for president! [Re: Tao]
    #2982314 - 08/09/04 05:31 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
I will if you can find where I wrote "the founders created the two party system in order..."



Your reasoning is still flawed. Lothar is correct, you would have been correct if you stated, "the reason we have a two party system is in order to prevent a candidate of a minority party from getting enough support to win the election." The reason we have a two party system is the collusion of the two major parties to create obstacles to those who would challenge thier power. Where do you think ballot access laws come from? Why do you think the debates are limited to the democcrats and republicans? Who set up the federal election commission? Who instituted federal matching campaign funds? Why do the taxpayers subsidize democrat & republican conventions?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
Re: There are more than two choices for president! [Re: Evolving]
    #2982431 - 08/09/04 05:56 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Where do you think ballot access laws come from? Why do you think the debates are limited to the democcrats and republicans? Who set up the federal election commission? Who instituted federal matching campaign funds? Why do the taxpayers subsidize democrat & republican conventions?




to answer these questions, your position is correct. your position also answers why we do not have instant runoff voting or proportional representation (though the latter is more debatable) but to answer why we have come to vote for two main parties, i still think I am correct. We have not been manipulated into doing so, but rather have followed a succession of rational choices of how best to create our political ends in a system of plurality elections.


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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