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Offlinepsilifun_guy
justahead
Registered: 08/09/03
Posts: 42
Loc: above water
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
age difference
    #2972988 - 08/06/04 05:31 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

ok, I'm a regular here but I prefer to use this account for this post. I don't need any criticism please, I've been taking care of that myself, trust me.

I'm a member at several message boards besides this one so online correspondence is par for the course with me. I will chat with anyone but I'm careful to hold back with the younger ones since I'm 32. But this time things got a little out of control.

A few months ago I began pm'ing and chatting with a girl of 15. Since she lives 20 or so miles away from me, the last month or so we've been involved in r/l...

First off, I have no desire for younger girls, my attraction is a personal one for her that has generated thru a platonic relationship. I have no desire to finish 'raising' someone else's child, she is as mature as any 30 year old woman. She looks much older than her age and she acts more like an adult than I do. I like her because she is honestly brilliant(!), open minded and accepting of ppl, she has compassion, her poetry is the best shit I've read since Jim Morrison's works, shes articulate, fun to be with, we share the same goals, we talk all nite and never seem to wind down, same tastes in music, work, food, everything...man, she's even vegan deadhead with a penchant for psychedelics like me.

I believe we both can work this out with her family if it comes to that. I also believe that anything is possible with the right attitude but I want the shroomery's thoughts on this. I don't need a perv label, I'm no dephile or pedophile, that shit's sick. This girl acts and looks at least 20. Should I cut it off with her just because of the age difference?


**Edited to add the fact that we haven't had sex yet. She wants it but I'm waiting till I get thru these goddam age difference issues**
32 year old guy with 15 year old girl...wrong?
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (08/06/04 12:00 AM) to (No end specified)
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll


Edited by psilifun_guy (08/06/04 05:49 PM)

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Invisibledownforpot
Stranger
Male
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2973070 - 08/06/04 05:55 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

You are twice as long as her... Think about what you are saying. She is still in school and will have to go to college. In college she will see hundreds of guys and will fall for them. Just find someone your own age.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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InvisibleSuffer
puter dork
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/05/99
Posts: 1,090
Loc: MA
Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2973322 - 08/06/04 07:12 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Young girls are immature and they never know what they want. When they think they do... they change there minds very quickly. There are may fish in the sea dude... and if she really is the one for you... then she will be when shes 18. Either find another, or wait the time... statutory(sp?) rape isnt a great charge to have on your record either


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2973330 - 08/06/04 07:14 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I believe that an age difference like that isn't wrong in itself, but society will not accept such a thing. Statutory rape carries a mighty harsh sentence. If you want to stay out of prison, keep the relationship strictly on a platonic level until she's 18.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinemycoguy
old hand

Registered: 03/25/04
Posts: 874
Loc: PNW
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2973416 - 08/06/04 07:42 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

dude, ....do you really need an answer from us? come on. sick fuck.


--------------------

(and no, that's not me in the avatar)
Yahoo! Pacific Northwest Mycology Group

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Invisiblewinelover
crimson jedi
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Posts: 91
Re: age difference [Re: silversoul7]
    #2973585 - 08/06/04 08:13 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

like the man said friends ok till she is legal :thumbup:

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Invisiblerogue_pixie
faerydae
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2973620 - 08/06/04 08:23 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I think that there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, it sounds like you two have a good thing going. Just because she's not yet classed by law as an official adult means nothing, people mature at different rates, it's not an instant thing that everyone reaches at the exact same time. Hold onto it if you really like the girl, fuck what anyone thinks, it probably won't be easy due to some peoples narrow mindedness, but what ever makes you both happy, I say.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Offlinepsilifun_guy
justahead
Registered: 08/09/03
Posts: 42
Loc: above water
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: age difference [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2974000 - 08/06/04 10:48 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

ya, thanks for the replies. The poll's at a 60-40 split for us together-that's about how close I am to a decision too.

Ok, the college and the maturity thing, I have thought about those issues. Thing is, she really is more mature than I am. Not that I act that young, if you met her, you'd understand that she simply is a remarkable young lady. She doesn't put up fronts or pretend to be someone she isn't. She has a great sense of humor and her concept of deep topics is greater than most adults. As far as her maturity taking control of commitment issues I haven't really known her long enough to realize her depth in that. It is a good point and I've kept it in mind.

I believe the risk of her finding someone else is small now but I don't know the future. She may find someone else in college, around town, work...just like any lover may. I've had that happen before and I won't let an issue like fear come into play...except fear of statuatory, that's common sense. The best relationship I've ever had was with a young lady(27) who ended up cheating on me. I still left her a better person for having known her. Sometimes the risks we take in love are worth the heart break that chases them.

platonic till legal, eh? Damn, I should have made that one of the choices in the poll but we are both sexually active. That'll be a hard one to pull off but it would knock the risk of me going to jail way down, wouldn't it?

My head and my heart agree with rogue pixie. I remember what it was like to be 15. I was pretty much as mature as I am now. That's not saying much for me now but I made adult decisions. Shit, I lived on my own when I was 14 working in kitchen restaurants for under the table cash and selling weed to live. If I didn't feel she was adult enough to make a decision in regard to her view of our relationship, I wouldn't be with her. And we are happy together, even apart is cool just knowing she's on Earth. I hope I may always be around ppl like her no matter where this thing goes.

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OfflineUncleMike
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Registered: 05/18/03
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Loc: S.W. Virginia
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2974152 - 08/06/04 11:27 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

No she isn't,she's just a kid. You just want to believe she is. she will grow tired of you. You are a passing fad. keep being friends with her but don't let it get out of hand.

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Invisiblerogue_pixie
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Re: age difference [Re: UncleMike]
    #2974464 - 08/07/04 01:30 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Most relationships are passing fads..it's a risk ya take.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Offlinedaba
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Re: age difference [Re: mycoguy]
    #2974544 - 08/07/04 02:05 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

mycoguy said:
dude, ....do you really need an answer from us? come on.




Editted, but you get the idea. This should be a no-brainer.

Edit: I almost think that you are trying to stir up some controversy with this post; as in, you fabricated this story to see the replies. At least, that's what I hope.


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Fold for The Shroomery!

Edited by daba (08/07/04 02:08 AM)

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OfflineRedo
CTA

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2974545 - 08/07/04 02:05 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

why, nobody, and I mean nobody, is mature at the age of 15 enough to make serious life decisions. at 32 you are, at 15 your not

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Offlinediscoabe
Stranger

Registered: 03/26/04
Posts: 674
Loc: Nevada
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2974551 - 08/07/04 02:08 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

That's a tough position to be in. If you're gonna go thru with this make sure it's not just lust for this girl. You're gonna have a long tough road ahead, make sure she's worth it.

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Offlinewrong
Stranger
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 1,219
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
Re: age difference [Re: UncleMike]
    #2974589 - 08/07/04 02:36 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

UncleMike said:
she's just a kid



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OfflineLocus
Male

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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2974612 - 08/07/04 02:56 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, she's just a kid and you're in your 30s. I think this is fucked up.


--------------------

The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity. ~ Albert Einstein
"Fear is the great barrier to human growth." ~ Dr. Robert Monroe



~~~*Dosis sola facit venenum*~~~

*Check my profile to listen to my music* :smile:

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Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2974624 - 08/07/04 03:10 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Sounds like you're deluding yourself.

Pervert.

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OfflineHypnoToad
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Registered: 05/08/04
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2974628 - 08/07/04 03:18 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Maturity is a false Idea conjured from the depths of societies ideal.It is also a way for humanity to justify things that otherwise wouldnt be ok.No matter the age of this girl...it will never work out.She hasnt really lived life yet and you have lived quite a bit.This for her is really just something she's trying,something experimental however sooner or later she will find a guy her own age or she will realize she hasnt lived yet.No matter how you paint it a 32 year old knows better (or should) and its his duty to tell the girl no.Because it is definitely not in her best interest and surely not in yours.That is one reason there are laws against such relationships.A 15 year old cant handle a relationship with a 32 year old.No matter how mature she seems she is not emotionally able to handle a relationship with a 32 year old.Typically girls her age who seek men significantly older then themselves usually has a problematic relationship with their father or none at all and they then seek a replacement in their dating life to try to fill that void.However one can support and mentor someone as a friend.

15 year old girls are also always fickle.Why would you want to risk legal trouble?Teen girls are highly emotional.You cannot be sure she will not turn on you afterward no matter how good of friends you are now.It is your responsibility as an adult and human being to set her on the right path.Because it simply isnt right and will never work out long term.It will only damage the both of you.

Theres no such thing as maturity....its a societal illusion.The truth is no matter how she appears to be she is not an adult mentally or emotional or on any level and you are.And adults and children live in entirely different worlds.You shouldnt even be friends with such a young girl in all reality.She should be learning about life and experiencing life in her own way on her own path with people her own age group.Teens are generally meant to have short unserious relationships.Its part of how they learn and grow as a person.Teen girls always think they know what they need and want but they really dont.

By your post deep down I can tell you know its wrong.But I can also see that you're trying to fight it with rationalizations and justifications.If you truly feel its right, why are you justifying everything?

My advice stay away from her even in a few years when she is 18 that is still an unhealthy age gap.It will never work out b/c of it even though both people may try to make it work and deny the reality of such things.However it would be denying human nature.


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"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."


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Offlinepsilifun_guy
justahead
Registered: 08/09/03
Posts: 42
Loc: above water
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: age difference [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2974810 - 08/07/04 06:48 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

yeah, criticism recognized there. Like I said, I don't need it and I haven't screwed her. I didn't post this to come here defending myself so thanks to all the otd'ers for stopping by but I was looking for intelligent contributions...

It's not about lust. Like I said, I've waited because of our age difference. Lust has really not played a part in this yet, at least on my behalf. Nor do I think she's playing a game to get sex from me. This is about 2 people who relate to each other in harmony...perfect companionship and friendship.

Its not about a lack of a supportive father figure in her life. She comes from a stable, college educated family. Her father is a great guy with his own company. He spends many days working from home and gives much love to his family. He's a very respectable man.

She relates to older ppl better than ppl closer to her age. If she were a fickle, highly emotional girl I wouldn't be seeing her.

I do think there is such a thing as maturity. Mental development is real, not illusion.

I'm not thru living, ya know? Sure she hasn't lived as much as I but that doesn't mean I have intentions of settling down or settling someone else down. If anything, it means I know how to live. Yeah, there is a chance things won't work out but there is with any relationship. I haven't had one to last forever yet.

Hopefully, she will have plenty of relationships with others her age. I'm not one to lead her away from her heart. I strengthen myself by sharing her with others. Possessive love is an illusion, true love is being able to let the object of affection ride her own winds.

I feel its right because my heart says so
and I'm justifying(fishing for articulate input in regard to modern U S society's reasons for condemning what is considered normal elsewhere) 'justifying' it for the same reasons I justify illicit drug use...its illegal.

Edited by psilifun_guy (08/07/04 06:58 AM)

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InvisibleMOTH
Wild Woman
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2974839 - 08/07/04 07:16 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Guide her gently.

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Offlinediscoabe
Stranger

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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2974996 - 08/07/04 09:37 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

First off, I think what HypnoToad said was pretty intelligent.

Secondly, if you've waited this long to do anything with her, just wait til she's 18. If it's meant to be the it'll happen at that time.

What did you mean by "Hopefully, she will have plenty of relationships with others her age."? That sounds like you want her to have other relationships, if so, then what the hell are we doing talking about you two then? If you want her to have other relationship then are you just with her to fuck her? It's not worth it then if that's all you're after, there are plenty of hot legal vaginas running around.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: age difference [Re: Redo]
    #2975086 - 08/07/04 10:28 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
why, nobody, and I mean nobody, is mature at the age of 15 enough to make serious life decisions. at 32 you are, at 15 your not



Bullshit. Everyone's different. But I agree that most 15-year-olds are not that mature.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineSigno
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2975544 - 08/07/04 01:55 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

What you are talking about has a name. Statutory RAPE. You are asking if rape is okay. Answer the question yourself.


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Correlation is not causation!

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OfflineHarveyWalbanger
Demiurge
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Re: age difference [Re: Signo]
    #2975584 - 08/07/04 02:05 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

We're not talking anything sexual by any means.... We're talking typing lovey-dovey with another person. As far as I know there is nothing wrong with two people of any age seriously caring for eachother. Yes, hypnotoad might be right and theres a deep freudian answer why, but as to is it wrong? No, They simply care deeply for eachother.... as to put a label that they are "together" is maybe a little worse, but still.... there is nothing wrong with caring.

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Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator

Registered: 07/09/99
Posts: 6,487
Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2975674 - 08/07/04 02:29 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Me and my 11 year old gf(im 22) have been doing great. She bled for a while but now she's good to go. Age is just a number.


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.

Edited by sir tripsalot (08/07/04 02:52 PM)

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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: age difference [Re: Signo]
    #2975739 - 08/07/04 02:52 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Signo said:
What you are talking about has a name. Statutory RAPE. You are asking if rape is okay. Answer the question yourself.



Just because they call it rape doesn't make it so.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinepsilifun_guy
justahead
Registered: 08/09/03
Posts: 42
Loc: above water
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: age difference [Re: discoabe]
    #2975744 - 08/07/04 02:54 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

**edited to underline my views on the Shroomery being the most intelligent drug community online. Its a shame we all can't hold par.**

No, I'm not with her just to fuck her. If that was it I wouldn't be posting here knowing I'm gonna get my head bashed. I would have been thru with her by now. Please read what I'm writing and don't take my shit out of context.

About her having other relationships, I believe there are some people who you can never have a monopoly on thir love. Some of the kyndest, warmest, larger-than-life people out there can deal only with an open relationship because they have more love than just one object can take. I don't, but I don't see anything wrong with it. I think its admirable that another can share with others. Sometimes sex is recreational. I'm not a x-ian.

My bringing up other relationships is also referring to the fact that ideally, she will have friends on different levels. We need relationships with other people, not necessarily sexual ones. I don't want to have a girl who will be stuck by me all her life, sometimes people need space. If I lose her because of my feelings, that's life. Relationships don't last forever anymore. I've accepted that a long time ago.

People make bad life decisions throughout life, not just teens. That's part of being human. If you listen to someone's thoughts, views, lines of reasoning...and see their intelligence you may come to trust it and see that she is as capable as anyone.

As far as the legal views, that concerns me inasmuch as the validity of the morals system that put it up, that's it. A very narrow minded morality system, I see no truth in it now. I'm not asking if rape is ok. Please read my posts.

The best arguments so far are 2. The first being a relationship won't last. That's not a concern for me. I'm an alright guy and I would never hurt her but if she hurts me, it's happened before. I'll live and hopefully be better off for our time together.

The 2nd argument is that she's not mature enough to make important decisions. But if you'd met her the maturity issue would not come up again.

I believe in an intelligent, open minded society, a relationship like ours would not only be the norm, it would be preferred. A girl would be better provided for by an older, more stable guy provided, of course, he be of admirable intentions.

Edited by psilifun_guy (08/07/04 03:02 PM)

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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2975764 - 08/07/04 03:04 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I'd have to agree that you should wait till 18. Consider that she is not yet even self aware. It's simply not possible until the brain develops to a certain degree. If you were as mature as you are now at age 15, well, maybe something needs to get looked at..

From what youve written, it seems as if you havent actually fucked her, but there has been sexual contact. well whatever

just don't mentally smother a curious girl

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Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2975766 - 08/07/04 03:04 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Still deluding yourself I see...

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: age difference [Re: vampirism]
    #2975779 - 08/07/04 03:10 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

If this were some other culture, there would be no controversy here. People here are just speaking from their own cultural bias. In some countries, this girl would already be married by now, and probably be pregnant with her first kid. At 15, she is biologically an adult. There is nothing inherent in our genetics which says that a 15-year-old cannot make responsible decisions for themselves.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinepsilifun_guy
justahead
Registered: 08/09/03
Posts: 42
Loc: above water
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: age difference [Re: vampirism]
    #2975788 - 08/07/04 03:13 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks, M, and no...no contact. We just spend time together. I'm not sure about your opinion on the development of the brain. That's referring to the physical makeup? not 'mind' then? I'll look into that but I think that's incorrect, it is developed. I'm not discussing the maturity issue any more, too redundant.

Mentally smother her...no, I don't want to be her focus, life should be the focus and what we put into it. And I don't plan on placing more value on our relationship than her, curious or not.

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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: age difference [Re: silversoul7]
    #2975808 - 08/07/04 03:24 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

correct, but their social order is completely different. Their concept of marriage is different. Note that they do not see free choice and liberty as priorities. They find a partner, and the two split jobs to live life. Too much for one person. Why do you think social gender difference exists anyway? Just splitting duties.


and psilli - i don't know what to tell you, there just seems to be something very odd going on here.. I'd be cautious, thats all

as to the awareness thing, it refers to both physical and mental makeup. A union of the two which takes time to develop. Hell, the brain doesn't completely develop in a person till age 30 or so. The development isn't linear, and peaks around the late teens.

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Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2975811 - 08/07/04 03:25 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Maybe you should plan on leaving her alone and finding someone closer to your own age instead of planning things for a relationship with her. I'm sure her parents would be utterly MORTIFIED to find out their 15 year old daughter was being pursued by a 32 year old man she met online. Have some respect for her, for her parents, and yourself.

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Offlinepsilifun_guy
justahead
Registered: 08/09/03
Posts: 42
Loc: above water
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: age difference [Re: vampirism]
    #2975919 - 08/07/04 04:01 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

ok, M, free choice isn't considered a priority in some places because its the norm. The societies denoted in the discussion are pretty varied. In mid-east, freedom may be nonexistent, but in the more grass roots cultures, freedom is the norm. Throughout Asia, varied freedoms where its accepted.

Damn, I looked that up and the U S is pretty rigid according to world's standards on age of consent. Granted I didn't find anything on the age gap issue but even most of Europe (I counted 24 European countries with an age of consent for female at 15 or under) recognizes a girl her age as being responsible enough to make this decision on her own.

If the brain isn't developed until an individual is in their 30's, my point is taken since a moral grounded law has no basis and as protection may be needed for ones in their 20's as well as teens.

Thank you, a, for making a point. I do respect her parents so maybe I should get acquainted with them. Respect for herself and I is why I haven't touched her also why I came here looking for arguments-pro/con.

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Anonymous #1

Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2975953 - 08/07/04 04:14 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I honestly don't see any problem with this. Like SS7 said there is gonna be a lot of backlash toward this because of cultural upbringing. It's certainly no one else's business if she is mature enough to enjoy this type of relationship with you. It sounds like you're just trying to get over the guilt of the age gap, but I think that comes only as result of cultural programming. Don't worry about. I don't really see how this could last very long anyway. Even if she is very mature at her age, she'll be a different person 3 or 4 years from now, guaranteed. Her brain is still developing despite outward appearances. And lastly, if the relationship does turn sexual, please be very careful and responsible!

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Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2975955 - 08/07/04 04:15 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

You're missing the point entirely.

Also, if you truly think there is nothing wrong with pursuing this girl, why did you feel the need to use a pseudonym?

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Offlinepsilifun_guy
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Re: age difference [Re: adrug]
    #2975978 - 08/07/04 04:22 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

yeah, thanks mh. Valid points and I'll be keeping them in mind.

Quote:

adrug said:
Sounds like you're deluding yourself.

Pervert.


That's why I'm using a puppet account. Some peoples' cultural programming pops out a preordained response like your quote above. I didn't come here to take on labels. Just advice.

I don't think the question is worth a response but of your last 2 posts, the former had a good point so I'll recognize the latter.

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Invisibleadrug

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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2975993 - 08/07/04 04:29 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Sorry about that, I had just came home from the bar when I first read your thread. Knee-jerk reaction.

I think my biggest problem with this is that I was, more or less, at one time, this girl. I was barely 17 and seeing a guy 10 years my senior. I thought I knew what I was doing, what I wanted, and of course he thought I was "so mature". It lasted about 3 uncomfortable months, ended rough, and I haven't talked to him since. When I look back on it now, I realize that I was taken advantage of and I hate to see it happen to another young girl. Especially at 15. Give her some time to be a kid.

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Offlinecanid
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Re: age difference [Re: silversoul7]
    #2976007 - 08/07/04 04:34 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

your point is more or less valid and i don't dissagree except on one point: in many other cultures where girls [and boys for that matter] are generaly considered to be adults from ages of biological adulthood, they are raised to be psychologicaly ready at those ages. in most western cultures, not only are children not prepared to be adults untill a given and set age, but they are raised not to try to be responsible untill at or near that age. this is a contributing factor to rebelliousness and can predispose on to make unsound decisions for the sake of rebellion alone, consciously or un. the two primary factors as i see them are 1.) is this girl honestly ready in life to enter an adult relationship and 2.) do you *both* consider the leagal and social repercussions to be worth the risk. if both parties where to consider these requesites to be met, i would have to say, at least in theory, that it is conducive to a relationship, but this will not negate the risks. from a moral standpoint, i am unsure as to where exactly i stand on the issue and i believe that a case by case system would be the only fair method of jedgment. unfortunately, this seems impractical for a government to attempt. this is a likely reason for such a cut and dry approach as for example, the U.S. and U. S. state governents take.


--------------------



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If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.

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Offlinepsilifun_guy
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Re: age difference [Re: adrug]
    #2976061 - 08/07/04 04:55 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

it's ok, thanks for the apology but I expected that response from some here. I see where you're coming from then but I don't want to take advantage of her. There's been opportunities to but that's not what we share. It's about being in each other's company, the time I spend with her is my treasure. We have like minds and communicate well. She's brought to me new insights. She's helped me in my business and, as a friend, I hope she's always around. She's an unconventional thinker like me and we make a good team in any capacity. She's bright star in any sky; cheerful, optimistic, and free spirited but not bubbly like some women. My point is I value her for who she is. I don't want to take advantage of her or even change her. If I wait a few years for sex and since we're both sexually active,we're missing out on more from each other. We've already known each other 3 months and nothing's happened so far, not even a kiss. We're just better friends after each visit.

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OfflineBarbi
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2976076 - 08/07/04 05:00 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Its illegal.

Shes to young to be making important decisions that could possibly ruin her life.

Its illegal.

I have 2 girls. If I was her father you would pray for me to kill you.

p.s. Its illegal and HIGHLY frowned upon. Being convicted of stat. rape in quite a few states translates to everyone around you KNOWING by law... etc.

Dont be stupid. find someone your own age. Use a fucking dating service for fucks sake. At least fine one thats 17.5

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Offlinepsilifun_guy
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Re: age difference [Re: canid]
    #2976089 - 08/07/04 05:06 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

You're talking about countries like Canada-14 is the age of consent, France, Morocco, and Greece-15, Germany and Italy-14, Spain-13, Denmark and Czech Republic-both 15, hell, it's 12 in the Netherlands if my link is up to date. These aren't underdeveloped countries or even that different socially than the U S.

Quote:

mndfreeze said:
Its illegal.
Its illegal.
I have 2 girls. If I was her father you would pray for me to kill you.
Its illegal
Use a fucking dating service for fucks sake.


Do you use illegal drugs? That's illegal.


I'm not going thru the maturity issue any more. A quick glance thru this thread will share my expression of that topic.

I have a 12 year old daughter. As long as I felt extremely confident she wasn't being taken advantage of, there would be no issue in regard to my approval of who she dates when she's 15.

I don't have trouble meeting people since I work with the public daily. It's the simple fact that she is who she is and I am me. We like each other regardless of age.

Edited by psilifun_guy (08/07/04 05:18 PM)

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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2976223 - 08/07/04 05:49 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Even if she was consent age you'd still be a loser... You're 32 dad. The laws are for horny guys like me that are not that far off from their age.


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.

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Offlinepsilifun_guy
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Re: age difference [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #2976254 - 08/07/04 06:00 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

sir tripsalot said:
Even if she was consent age you'd still be a loser... You're 32 dad. The laws are for horny guys like me that are not that far off from their age.


I apologize for recognizing a less than intelligent post here but I wanted to use this as an example to why I would prefer my daughter date an older guy.

I try not to be judgemental but if my daughter brought home a coarse young man with a disturbing lack of communication skills who considered himself a 'horny young man'...well, my concern for her welfare would be a little higher than if she brought in a verbose gentleman with genuine concern for her.

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OfflineHarveyWalbanger
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Re: age difference [Re: Barbi]
    #2976292 - 08/07/04 06:14 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

You guys need to be a little more constructive!.... You might be right, you might be wrong. But you must phrase your points CAREFULLY if you want anyone to listen. Vulgarity and violent threats is a sure way to stop people from listening to you. If I'm turned off by listening to such crap, I KNOW he isn't listening either.

NOW, calmly explaining that such a relationship is destined for heartbreak is a MUCH better approach. You'll notice earlier in the thread, the two possibilities that stuck in his mind we're calmly phrased, and not delievered by people pushed by emotion on the subject.

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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2976319 - 08/07/04 06:25 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

apologize for recognizing a less than intelligent post here but I wanted to use this as an example to why I would prefer my daughter date an older guy.





You've already shown a total lack of respect for what a father would want for their daughter anyways. Striking up the relationship with her in the first place was your first dagger in her dads back.
Answer me this, a 10 year old has had her period and is now ready for reproduction, she's sweet on a nice 67 year old man and thinks it's true love. Think it's a good idea they get together?


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.

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Offlinepsilifun_guy
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2976328 - 08/07/04 06:29 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I'll be using the ignore option here now to keep the dribble out. Thanks to everyone who has replied intelligently so far!

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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2976335 - 08/07/04 06:31 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Listen pal, you don't get to take the highground in this thread. A 32 year old drug using pedophile. I wish my daughter could meet you :heart:


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2976341 - 08/07/04 06:35 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

While I think sir_tripsalot is being a tad bit immature, he does make a valid point: She has parents, and you have to take them into consideration, too. You know, there's a saying that if you love someone, let them go. If they return, it was meant to be. While I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with a relationship with this kind of age difference, I don't think it could realistically work out in our society. It's likely to have negative consequences for both of you. It's probably best that the two of you either part ways or maintain a platonic relationship. If it's true love, then it'll be worth the wait.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinepsilifun_guy
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Re: age difference [Re: silversoul7]
    #2976356 - 08/07/04 06:42 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

yeah, adrug brought up that topic (respecting her parents? he's on ignore...) a couple pages back. I addressed it there and agree that her parents don't need to be kept in the dark if anything is about to happen. I have respect for them.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2976360 - 08/07/04 06:45 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Are you sure her parents wouldn't flip out and call the cops if they found out? I'm sure most parents would.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinepsilifun_guy
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Re: age difference [Re: silversoul7]
    #2976383 - 08/07/04 06:55 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Her parents are pretty open minded people, college educated. I couldn't imagine them flipping out later on and turning things around on me but I try to keep all scenarios in mind.

I get along well with them so far, too. They're from the pnw, deadheads, so they're pretty accepting and we get along ok.

I will tell them of the mutual attraction before anything happens though. That's only fair to them. I think they already have an idea and no bad reaction so far.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2976384 - 08/07/04 06:56 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Personally, I think if anyone should break the news to them, it should be her.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinepsilifun_guy
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Re: age difference [Re: silversoul7]
    #2976388 - 08/07/04 06:58 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Good point. I'm going out there in a few minutes so her and I will discuss this tonight.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2976392 - 08/07/04 07:02 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I'd also like to add that if they do approve and you do decide to start a relationship in spite of the risks, you should probably wait at least a couple months before having sex. You should definitely take things slow with her.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2976411 - 08/07/04 07:12 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

would i tap some 15 year old ass if I knew there would be no repercussions? Yes. But there will be repercussions, for both you and her. Sorry man, but humping 15 year olds should be reserved for fantasies. Actually doing it is not healthy for either of you, and could get you both in a lot of trouble.

Also I would never fall in love with a 15 year old. Thats asking to get your heart broken, man. Girls tend to get real sexually and socially curious in their 20's, and generally dont want to settle down until later. Thats something I learned the hard way. These days, I wouldnt expect any girl under the age of 25 to be wanting a serious commitment. Its just not in their nature, dude.

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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2976657 - 08/07/04 09:15 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

hm

IMO you having a 12 year old daughter complicates things for your own child and how she will see things..

well whatever, nevermind

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OfflinePotIsYourFriend
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Re: age difference [Re: mycoguy]
    #2976719 - 08/07/04 09:52 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

mycoguy said:
dude, ....do you really need an answer from us? come on. sick fuck.





I have to agree and mycoguy your sick.. When people say if theres grass on the field then play ball its just to be funny dont take it literally..

Edited by PotIsYourFriend (08/07/04 10:49 PM)

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Offlinewrong
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2976884 - 08/07/04 10:37 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

if you become involved with her there is a LARGE chance she will regret it in 5 years. regret it because she was a kid and she didnt know what she was doing. no matter how mature you think she is, shes fifteen years old and you are 32.
also, many people are open minded. few would want there daughter fucking some guy who is closer to there age then hers, and with a daughter of his own. dont be surprised if her father isnt as accepting as you thought...
i agree with morrowind in that it will also likely have an affect on your daughter.

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OfflineHypnoToad
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2977238 - 08/08/04 12:17 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

My friend,Lust is ever present.Even if you do not think ti plays a factor it does.Love lasts forever.I hardly think either of you truly can be thinking of forever.He seems like a great guy but do you know her father closely?Probably not.Things rarely ever what they seem to be.She may not have good communication with her father which would still assert the fatherly lover theory.All teens girls are highly emotional and fickle even if not apparent outwardly.They are all rebellious and stubborn in some way.Maturity is an illusion.there is no set Maturity Scale.There is no way of measuring maturity.Nor any way to sense it.Something that cannot be sense in any way or measured in any way is called an illusion.Regardless of what her "mental deveopment" may seem to be she still has the mind of a 15 year old child and still is a 15 year old child.She is barely half way through her teen years.

My point of stating that she has barely lived yet was to mean that she does not have the experience she needs to grow as a person.She hasnt done much of anything yet.She doesnt even know what its like to be an adult yet.

Possession is also an illusion one can never truly own anything. :smile:

You should really just tell her what is best for her and that is for her to be among her own age group give or take a couple years.She may think she knows what she wants,but does she really?Did you know what you wnated fro life at her age?

Even if she knows what she wants,is it really what she needs?

I doubt it highly.If you felt it is right why are you here asking advice at all?Why do you need reinforcement to your idea?

Everything in life is subjective,however nothing is justified.

"illegal" drug use is subjective as to what is right and wrong.

Such a relationship is not subjective.It is plainly harmful and immoral.Do you realize your relatioship with her could very possibly end up ruining the rest of her life?She could end up very emotionally scarred or very regretful and never get over it.Such cases are plenty.I assure you a better match and actual true love can be found elsewhere.

Just because one is childish or immature in mind does not mean it is alright to be with a child or immature human being.


--------------------
"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."


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Offlinepsilifun_guy
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2977601 - 08/08/04 06:53 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

k, just got in from seeing her. Her parents already know. They thought we already were intimate but I've decided to wait. She's worth the wait even if she finds someone else for sex. I don't blame her for it. I just don't want sex to be a factor in our relationship yet. I guess I've seen pretty much all I wanted to see in this thread so I'm out. Next time I post a thread of this nature it will be on a weekday when the adults are here. btw, hypnotoad, you wanna look over your last post and see if there may be just a tad of horseshit in it? Almost every sentence is a lie but I'm not arguing it with you. Just sorry you didn't contribute a bit more thoughtfully this time.

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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2977682 - 08/08/04 07:51 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

psilifun_guy said:
I have no desire to finish 'raising' someone else's child, she is as mature as any 30 year old woman. She looks much older than her age and she acts more like an adult than I do. I like her because she is honestly brilliant(!), open minded and accepting of ppl, she has compassion, her poetry is the best shit I've read since Jim Morrison's works, shes articulate, fun to be with, we share the same goals, we talk all nite and never seem to wind down, same tastes in music, work, food, everything...man, she's even vegan deadhead with a penchant for psychedelics like me.




That is the biggest pile of bullshit I've ever read. She is 15 and she has all those qualities? You are blinded by her and have lost touch with reality. Deep down she is an insecure little girl that has no idea what the real world is like, and her ego is clinging onto a man (not really) twice her age to make her feel special. You are pathetic.

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OfflineHypnoToad
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2977690 - 08/08/04 07:59 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

My friend you cannot see the adults here b/c u are not one obvioualy.Everyone here who posted had very intelligent and good advice.It just wasnt what you really wanted to hear.Im assuming you expected what was said anyhow.

And just because you do not agree with what I say doesnt make it a lie.I was thoughtful.It is you who is not thoughtful being only concerned with your wants and needs and not this girl's or her parents or anyone else.I cannot imagine you even have self respect let alone respect for others.You cannot especially have respect for this girl if you're going to pursue it out of selfish motives.I am not name calling or anything so childish.I am however pointing out the ugly truth.One day you will understand exactly why everyone said what they did and I do not feel even one of us who posted said anything that ws a lie or even wrong.

I dont mean this in a mean way either but if you're seriously willing to date someone around your daughter's age,You may seriously need some counseling.If your life isnt even straight and you admit that you're not very mature essentially,how can you take other's lives and futures into your own hands?Especially one so young?

(sighs) Of course no matter what I or anyone else says you will continue with this foolishness and insist we're all childish and that you're correct.

(sighs)(shakes his head)


--------------------
"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."


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InvisibleJohn
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2977783 - 08/08/04 09:30 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

heh, everyone who contradicts you is immature yet your 32 and are seeing a 15 y/o? when i was 18 my step-sister was 15, her friends would come over and even then i could see what a dramatic diffrence there is between those ages let alone 15-32. thinking about how much i grew up between even the ages of 16-19 is enormous, i've grown more than i could imagine, learned a lot of lessons in life all of which I knew i knew when i was 16 but in reality i didn't know shit. you saying you haven't changed much since you were 15 is either trying to justify this or you are mentally handicapped because between 16- 21 is when a person really grows as a person. most 15 y/o have no idea what the real world is like as they have been sheltered their whole life. don't know what it's like to pay bills on not have to raise your hand in class and get a hall pass to go to the bathroom. so yeah this is what you don't want to hear so proceed to call me immature, well i might as well give you a reason to, so... why don't you have your daughter hold a sleepover? maybe you could meet some new chicks :smile:

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OfflineBarbi
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Re: age difference [Re: HarveyWalbanger]
    #2977804 - 08/08/04 09:41 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

HarveyWalbanger said:
You guys need to be a little more constructive!.... You might be right, you might be wrong. But you must phrase your points CAREFULLY if you want anyone to listen. Vulgarity and violent threats is a sure way to stop people from listening to you. If I'm turned off by listening to such crap, I KNOW he isn't listening either.

NOW, calmly explaining that such a relationship is destined for heartbreak is a MUCH better approach. You'll notice earlier in the thread, the two possibilities that stuck in his mind we're calmly phrased, and not delievered by people pushed by emotion on the subject.




you can already tell he isnt listening anyways. Hes only hearing what he wants to hear.

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OfflineLocus
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Re: age difference [Re: Barbi]
    #2977950 - 08/08/04 10:41 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, he acts as if the replies here are completely rediculous and childish. Everything that he does not agree with is deemed childish and stupid.

Anyway, also on a physical level if this guy is attracted to this little girl because she's a child then he really needs help. At 15, she's clearly a little girl on the inside and out. She hasn't even fully developed yet. And sexually that would be a grown man with a little girl. That's a damn pedophile.


--------------------

The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity. ~ Albert Einstein
"Fear is the great barrier to human growth." ~ Dr. Robert Monroe



~~~*Dosis sola facit venenum*~~~

*Check my profile to listen to my music* :smile:

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Anonymous #1

Post deleted by Anno [Re: Locus]
    #2977977 - 08/08/04 10:47 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)


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Offlinebrowndustin
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Re: age difference [Re: ]
    #2978280 - 08/08/04 12:57 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I know what you mean when you're saying she's mature, and maybe she is. But the fact of the matter is that she still hasn't lived her life yet, she hasn't experienced what you have. She's deprived and just can't make an informed enough decision to start 'seeing' you.
Not to mention, she's 15! God, you shouldn't have let yourself get hung up over her. It's all lust. She's 15, you're in lust. Maybe you think you have feelings for her, but you have to get over them because you're an adult.

I'm 18 and I wouldn't even pound a 15 year old. C'mon man, you should know this. Think of what her dad's going to do to you when he finds out. Would you want some 30-something being intimate with your precious daughter? I think not...

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Offlinepsilifun_guy
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Re: age difference [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2978338 - 08/08/04 01:22 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, I could see that this was leading. That's why I intended on leaving this thread for good. I just wanted advice, not attack. And what I received here did help. I decided to wait till she's older and make sure her parents knew. I said earlier I didn't want sex to be a factor in our relationship but we are still going to be friends. I wonder how non-americans feel about this?
Quote:

HypnoToad said:
My friend,Lust is ever present.


Lust, for everyone is not always present. Perhaps it is in teenage boys but not a factor of every decision a man makes.
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Even if you do not think ti plays a factor it does.


In my relationship with her, lust is not there. That's one thing that bothers me about it because it should be in a relationship. Maybe our age gap but the lust just doesn't exist and there's no exciting taboo interest.
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Love lasts forever.


No, love doesn't last forever. The only love that lasts forever is a love for one's children, lovers come and go.
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I hardly think either of you truly can be thinking of forever.


agreed, if you'd have paid attention to my posts you'd notice I've relayed this fact 3 times already.
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He seems like a great guy but do you know her father closely?Probably not.


I spend time with her family. We're not buddies but we're acquainted enough to enjoy a friendship and mutual respect.
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Things rarely ever what they seem to be.She may not have good communication with her father which would still assert the fatherly lover theory.


There is alot of love in her family. They communicate with each other and go to lengths to enjoy family time each day. Her parents realize she has a sharp mind and trust her judgement. She's a level headed girl.
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All teens girls are highly emotional and fickle even if not apparent outwardly.They are all rebellious and stubborn in some way.


generalization much??? and all teenage boys are horny, irresponsible kids and better stay away from my daughter.
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Maturity is an illusion.there is no set Maturity Scale.There is no way of measuring maturity.


You are measuring her maturity and my own in this thread. Maturity is real. It's subjective as several have made the point here but if my friend acted as less than a responsible adult, I wouldn't have the respect I have for her.
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Nor any way to sense it


ummm, some people can sense immaturity or maturity in others by sharing only a thought or 2.
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Something that cannot be sense in any way or measured in any way is called an illusion.


Ok, that's the 2nd sentence in your post here that I agree with.
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Regardless of what her "mental deveopment" may seem to be she still has the mind of a 15 year old child and still is a 15 year old child.She is barely half way through her teen years.


Her brain is 15 years old. Her mind is as developed as many women twice her age. I've known other women and I know her.
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My point of stating that she has barely lived yet was to mean that she does not have the experience she needs to grow as a person.She hasnt done much of anything yet.She doesnt even know what its like to be an adult yet.


I don't want to show her what it's like to be an adult but I will be there if she needs me. Everyone doesn't grow from experience alone. Some learn from others' mistakes.
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Possession is also an illusion one can never truly own anything.


Possession? I'm confused about where this sentence comes into play in reply to me because I never said anything about possessiveness except that I don't believe in possessive love. True love is sharing. If I have issues with my friend being involved in another relationship, that's my problem and its not love.
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You should really just tell her what is best for her and that is for her to be among her own age group give or take a couple years.She may think she knows what she wants,but does she really?Did you know what you wnated fro life at her age?


Yes, I wanted the same thing I want now, happiness. We both know that she needs friends her own age and I've relayed that fact here a couple of times already too.
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Even if she knows what she wants,is it really what she needs?


There was research done a few years back on the odd cravings pregnant women have. It was revealed by this research that the reason for this was a deficiency of certain minerals that were found in some of the craved foods. So the pregnant women, by needing what was different from ordinary fare, in fact did need what was not common.
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I doubt it highly.If you felt it is right why are you here asking advice at all?Why do you need reinforcement to your idea?


This has been covered too. Ths thread is turning into an attack by a few of you guys. That's why I believed earlier I should just drop it. There were constructive arguments here but when I was referred to by you as being childish and immature, it was obvious that the productivity I'd received here was pretty much gone. Anyway, what I said a few pages back was that I'd come here to better understand why a relationship considered the norm or even preferred across the globe is considered taboo by old fashioned U S citizens.
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Everything in life is subjective,however nothing is justified.


Everyone may have an opinion on anything. That doesn't make facts subjective.
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"illegal" drug use is subjective as to what is right and wrong.


See, this is the shit that makes me mad. I have a life. I've spent more time here in the last weekend than my entire membership at the shroomery. I like to think some people helped me in my little dilemma but to have to come here and defend myself from ignorant quotes like the one above is a bit chading.

No, illegal means that it is against the law.
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Such a relationship is not subjective.


There is emotion involved in the decisions being made in our relationship. That denotes subjectivity.
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It is plainly harmful and immoral.


By a x-ians morals it may be. By neither of us are Christians, nor her family or mine. I don't have your morals. Morals are subjective.
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Do you realize your relatioship with her could very possibly end up ruining the rest of her life?


I realize almost every decision I make may ruin my and/or another's life and I try to give appropriate consideration for each one.
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She could end up very emotionally scarred or very regretful and never get over it.Such cases are plenty.I assure you a better match and actual true love can be found elsewhere.


You can assure anything but you really don't know. I don't think my involvement with one so varied in age is the first in history and if this works out, I'm certain it won't be one of the first. Her welfare is more important than anything to me and I understand already the consequences if things don't work out and am willing to go to length to see that she's not hurt. That's why I decided to wait a couple of years at least before we get sexual if we do, even if she gets it from someone else I'll just have to be understanding about it since she's already sexually active.
Quote:



Just because one is childish or immature in mind does not mean it is alright to be with a child or immature human being.


Your attacks are getting a bit more blunt. Fair articulation works much better for you.

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InvisibleJohn
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2978368 - 08/08/04 01:36 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I'd come here to better understand why a relationship considered the norm or even preferred across the globe is considered taboo by old fashioned U S citizens.




public beheadings are the norm in saudi arabia, women being considered inferior to men is considered the norm in a lot of middle eastern countries, does that make it right? Also another member brought up the very true point of Americans being raised diffrently :stoned:

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Offlinepsilifun_guy
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Re: age difference [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2978371 - 08/08/04 01:38 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

HypnoToad said:
My friend you cannot see the adults here b/c u are not one obvioualy.Everyone here who posted had very intelligent and good advice.It just wasnt what you really wanted to hear.Im assuming you expected what was said anyhow.


Thank you for voicing the opinion you've been hinting at since you began posting in my thread. Now we see where subjectivity comes into play in relationships. It clouds our judgement and perhaps moral standards have clouded yours. And no, everyone here certainly did not post intelligently. That's a fact.
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And just because you do not agree with what I say doesnt make it a lie.I was thoughtful.It is you who is not thoughtful being only concerned with your wants and needs and not this girl's or her parents or anyone else.


Right, see my last post. If you'd read my posts objectively, its obvious that my least concern is my wants or needs. I feel like a band onstage listening to the crowd chant, "play it's not about sex, it's not about sex' because this is not about sex! And people keep popping in and saying I'm sick for wanting to fuck her. I want her friendship first. After that what happens isn't important.
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I cannot imagine you even have self respect let alone respect for others.You cannot especially have respect for this girl if you're going to pursue it out of selfish motives.


selfish motives? the confusion sets in...
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I am not name calling or anything so childish.


the last time you posted the word childish you were though.
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I am however pointing out the ugly truth.One day you will understand exactly why everyone said what they did and I do not feel even one of us who posted said anything that ws a lie or even wrong.


again, see my last post where I called you out on a few of your own inconsistencies.
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I dont mean this in a mean way either but if you're seriously willing to date someone around your daughter's age,You may seriously need some counseling.If your life isnt even straight and you admit that you're not very mature essentially,how can you take other's lives and futures into your own hands?Especially one so young?


I don't consider myself 'mature' because I like to have fun. I got to amusement parks, water parks, concerts, I dance, travel, meet people and try to help others as best I can. My work allows me the freedom I need to lead an interesting life because I am not one to get stuck in a rut. Monotony is akin to spiritual death, imo.
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(sighs) Of course no matter what I or anyone else says you will continue with this foolishness and insist we're all childish and that you're correct.

(sighs)(shakes his head)


ya, foolishness...I was posting for productive replies, pro and con. The ones I received were treated by me with respect when merited. Glance back thru this thread without subjectivity, my friend.

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Offlinepsilifun_guy
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Re: age difference [Re: John]
    #2978388 - 08/08/04 01:45 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

John said:
heh, everyone who contradicts you is immature yet your 32 and are seeing a 15 y/o?


not everyone but if you'd care to look thru the thread, you'll see some did.
Quote:

when i was 18 my step-sister was 15, her friends would come over and even then i could see what a dramatic diffrence there is between those ages let alone 15-32.


yeah, for most 15 year olds there is. I recognize this fact but ones raised thoughtfully may become a bit more well rounded sooner than her peers. She's travelled across the world more than almost anyone here.
Quote:

thinking about how much i grew up between even the ages of 16-19 is enormous, i've grown more than i could imagine, learned a lot of lessons in life all of which I knew i knew when i was 16 but in reality i didn't know shit. you saying you haven't changed much since you were 15 is either trying to justify this or you are mentally handicapped because between 16- 21 is when a person really grows as a person. most 15 y/o have no idea what the real world is like as they have been sheltered their whole life


yeah, most have.
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don't know what it's like to pay bills on not have to raise your hand in class and get a hall pass to go to the bathroom.


most of them, agreed. I wasn't one of these and she isn't either.
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so yeah this is what you don't want to hear so proceed to call me immature, well i might as well give you a reason to, so... why don't you have your daughter hold a sleepover? maybe you could meet some new chicks :smile:



Bash recognized and my level of respect for you adjusted accordingly. I expected a more mature response from you, John.

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Offlinepsilifun_guy
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Re: age difference [Re: Locus]
    #2978392 - 08/08/04 01:48 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Locus said:
Yeah, he acts as if the replies here are completely rediculous and childish. Everything that he does not agree with is deemed childish and stupid.

Anyway, also on a physical level if this guy is attracted to this little girl because she's a child then he really needs help. At 15, she's clearly a little girl on the inside and out. She hasn't even fully developed yet. And sexually that would be a grown man with a little girl. That's a damn pedophile.


No, that's dephile and is one reason I'm not attracted to her sexually as in my previous relationships. Like I've said too many times here...its not the sex I want, just friendship. I believe this thread has become too long for others to read back thru and see previous comments now.

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Offlinepsilifun_guy
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2978403 - 08/08/04 01:52 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Saudi Arabia? Why pick that one? Besides, Saudi Arabia has no age of consent so she could be much younger there. Only difference is we'd have to be married first.Here's a link for Saudi Arabia and a few more countries you may care to research.
Quote:

psilifun_guy said: Damn, I looked that up and the U S is pretty rigid according to world's standards on age of consent. Granted I didn't find anything on the age gap issue but even most of Europe (I counted 24 European countries with an age of consent for female at 15 or under) recognizes a girl her age as being responsible enough to make this decision on her own.



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OfflineLocus
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2978409 - 08/08/04 01:55 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Ok, but you said that she wants sex with you now, so something sexual is going on.


--------------------

The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity. ~ Albert Einstein
"Fear is the great barrier to human growth." ~ Dr. Robert Monroe



~~~*Dosis sola facit venenum*~~~

*Check my profile to listen to my music* :smile:

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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2978411 - 08/08/04 01:56 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I think we all already know what you're going to do. You can argue all you want that this is okay when the fact is, most of the society that you have to live in is going to find this morally repugnant. If you don't mind being labeled or judged, then by all means pursue her. But if you ARE going to pursue her, don't get whiny about "maturity" when people tell you what they think about it.

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Offlinepsilifun_guy
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Re: age difference [Re: ]
    #2978412 - 08/08/04 01:57 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Fiend said:
Well I voted "She's too young! Leave Her" but after reading this post I'd like it changed to "You should have your nuts cut off."

Everyone who said anything besides "Go taXx that aZZ" is immature. Interesting. Kettle, pot, black. I'm going to make sure that if I'm ever acting like you when I'm in my thirties someone is there to shoot me in the head. Especially if I have a kid. Man you suck.


no, the ones that posted less than intelligently are. There were some good points made, I recognized them but the ones that attacked weren't necessary. I'm not stalking or lusting after a young girl. If I was that or wanted to do that, wtf would I be here for? I already could be. We just have a close relationship, her parents approve, I believe she's very mature(you don't know her), and I wanted outsiders' insight on my thoughts of conceding with her and taking things to the next level, sex.

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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2978414 - 08/08/04 01:57 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

just want to point something out

If you have no sexual interest in her, why not just remain friends? Why must she become your lover?

and out of curiosity, what has she done and seen that lead you to believe she is so mature? Perhaps that would convince people of your argument more than "Shes more mentally developed than 30 year olds I've known!" Sadly, some people remain stupider than wooden sticks their entire life. A relative judgement just won't work, especially on such a careful subject as this..

Also, what did her parents think?

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InvisibleJohn
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2978421 - 08/08/04 01:59 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I expected a more mature response from you, John.




eh you must not know me so well then. I'm just a kid myself (19) and like to fuck around, I couldn't let that one go :smile: and honestly was what i said so far off?

You're going to try and rationalize this all you can which is natural I suppose but i mean she's 15 and you're 32 (?). I remember in middle school the 14-15 y/o's bragging about their 26+ y/o boyfriends and how they have a car and money ect. This chick i was with at a concert, had a boyfriend of 35 and she was 16, she was one fucked up chick (in the head as a result of the guy, situational, he wasn't abusing her or anything actually he treated her well from what she said but it still fucked her up) Wouldn't it be a little wierd when you bring your girl over and your daughter says "hey daddy i know her from school" (not trying to be an ass) i mean it's such a complicated issue and honestly is a little sick imo, i mean 17 year diffrence between a 50 and 67 y/o isn't a big deal but she's still in developemental stages of her life no matter how mature you think she is.

Quote:

I wasn't one of these and she isn't either.




Neither was I (i thought) until i grew up a bit.

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Offlinepsilifun_guy
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Re: age difference [Re: adrug]
    #2978432 - 08/08/04 02:02 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

adrug said:
I think we all already know what you're going to do. You can argue all you want that this is okay when the fact is, most of the society that you have to live in is going to find this morally repugnant. If you don't mind being labeled or judged, then by all means pursue her. But if you ARE going to pursue her, don't get whiny about "maturity" when people tell you what they think about it.


Well, I already said I'm not going to sleep with her and I'm not. We've never shared a kiss, just company and, like I said, its staying that way for a while now. You know, you're the one who helped me the most here in this decision because I don't want her hurt. I'm sorry about what happened to you and I have to make certain it doesn't happen to my friend. Thanks for your post yesterday and things aren't turning to sex any time soon. We'll stay friends but that's it. This isn't a lust thing, just 2 people with mutual feelings.

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InvisibleJohn
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2978437 - 08/08/04 02:05 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Saudi Arabia? Why pick that one? Besides, Saudi Arabia has no age of consent so she could be much younger there. Only difference is we'd have to be married first.Here's a link for Saudi Arabia and a few more countries you may care to research.




because i was pointing out a lot of sick things go on in other contries and are considered the norm.

i.e. i mean i don't see what's wrong with cutting a mans head off because he dosn't have the same faith as me, in other contries this is the norm so i wonder why americans think it's taboo.

Point being you live in fuckin america so you are judged based upon that, if you don't like it go to saudi arabia where you can marry a 8 y/o if you'd like, just careful not to get you shit chopped off.

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Offlinepsilifun_guy
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Re: age difference [Re: John]
    #2978491 - 08/08/04 02:17 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

John said:eh you must not know me so well then. I'm just a kid myself (19) and like to fuck around, I couldn't let that one go :smile: and honestly was what i said so far off?


ok then, I know but I was trying to help you understand that this is a serious situation for me and I needed positive contributions, not quips. yeah, you are far off. You misunderstand my intentions
Quote:



You're going to try and rationalize this all you can which is natural I suppose but i mean she's 15 and you're 32 (?). I remember in middle school the 14-15 y/o's bragging about their 26+ y/o boyfriends and how they have a car and money ect. This chick i was with at a concert, had a boyfriend of 35 and she was 16, she was one fucked up chick (in the head as a result of the guy, situational, he wasn't abusing her or anything actually he treated her well from what she said but it still fucked her up) Wouldn't it be a little wierd when you bring your girl over and your daughter says "hey daddy i know her from school" (not trying to be an ass) i mean it's such a complicated issue and honestly is a little sick imo, i mean 17 year diffrence between a 50 and 67 y/o isn't a big deal but she's still in developemental stages of her life no matter how mature you think she is.


ok, that explains your subjectivity on this topic. At least its not cultural imprinting like some of the others who've visited. But about that girl you knew, you sure she wasn't already messed up mentally? Maybe she just wasn't concerned with the U S culture's moral standards. Yes, it would be weird if her and my daughter got to be very close friends, god forbid I find someone that could relate to my daughter. It is a complicated issue but I've made some progress on the decions I have to make with it.
Quote:



Quote:

I wasn't one of these and she isn't either.




Neither was I (i thought) until i grew up a bit.


ok, what I meant there was a referral to the fact that I'd traveled alone among cities like Chicago, Birmingham, Nashville, New Orleans, and Miami by the time i was 15. I had had a few jobs, my own apartments, I had my first car when I was 13(yeah, illegal, so? do drugs?)relationships, and was already getting a decent bankroll together. She, at the age of 15, has travelled abroad, within the states, worked a few jobs. She's not a sheltered girl but she has alot of class. Also, she's helped me in my work. That shows me that she has a damn sharp mind because I've been in the same business for quite a while. I must respect anyone who can help me learn something.

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Offlinepsilifun_guy
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Re: age difference [Re: vampirism]
    #2978542 - 08/08/04 02:32 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
just want to point something out

If you have no sexual interest in her, why not just remain friends? Why must she become your lover?

and out of curiosity, what has she done and seen that lead you to believe she is so mature? Perhaps that would convince people of your argument more than "Shes more mentally developed than 30 year olds I've known!" Sadly, some people remain stupider than wooden sticks their entire life. A relative judgement just won't work, especially on such a careful subject as this..

Also, what did her parents think?


ok, I've said that we are remaining friends because i don't want anything that happens now to hurt her later, even though we as adults are hurt and it haunts. adrug convinced me that was best. The problem was that we are both sexually active, just not since we've met.

Please go thru my posts to see the reasons I feel she's mature. Hell, if you spend approximately 400 hours with someone in the last 3 months, you notice things like that.

btw, your quote of me wasn't an exclamation, it was an objective fact. I have known some seriously psychotic and immature 30 year old women. You can look over my posts on the 1st page esp. and the 2nd page to better understand my views of her mental development.

Her parents are active, free spirited people who raise their offspring thoughtfully and with love. They are taught to think on their own and each family member is happy and productive. They trust her judgement. They know I am respectable and have no ill intentions with her and support her in all aspects of her life.

**edited to add that your quote was inconsistent with this thread, John. Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Turkey have rigid views on premarital sex. The age gap issue isn't even a factor there.

Edited by psilifun_guy (08/08/04 02:40 PM)

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InvisibleJohn
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2978744 - 08/08/04 04:07 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

once again when i mentioned middle eastern countries my intent was to show that things that are considered normal in certain cultures (killing because one does not believe in your religion ect.) dosn't justify anything.

also the whole drugs are illegal but you still do them thing in a sad argument. by that logic murdering would be okay because you do drugs so obviously you don't care about legalities right? sounds like a right wing anti-drug nut...

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OfflineHarveyWalbanger
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Re: age difference [Re: vampirism]
    #2978764 - 08/08/04 04:18 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Well.... this thread has outlived its usefulness......

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OfflineHypnoToad
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2978896 - 08/08/04 05:20 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

If lust is not present why were you even considering sex?

I used "maturity" to relate to you on your level and terms instead of calling you foolish or a fool or childish I was politer and used your terms immature/mature.You are being selfish.You just cannot see it.And btw I am NOT christian.Not even close.I dont even believe in a god.Im a buddhist.

Lust is the strongest desire in all beings unless you have eradicated it.If you look at a woman and want her thats lust.If you want to sleep with a girl its lust.Lust is sexual.Love is not.The fact that you were seriously considering sex denotes lust is present.

True love lasts forever and is unconditional.

A perception is not a sense.A sense is touch taste smell hear see.Perception is an illusion.Perceptions are deceiving.

No matter how old she seems she still has a 15 year old mind.One can only be what one is not what one wishes to be at that moment.

I know what you had said about possession but I just randomly commented on possession anyhow.

The pregnant woman thing is irrelevant.It is not her instinct to be with older men.Its a conditioning.

Everything IS subjective.There are no real facts.What is fact today is false tomorrow.

Illegal does not signify right from wrong.(sighs) Drugs became illegal because they were abused which is morally wrong and unhealthy.Controlled drug use is morally ok or even right.Medicine and drugs are no different.They are the same.

Dating such a young girl is not morally right period.Especially not when u have a daughter nearly her age.

I became blunt because you are being foolish and not listening.Like the fool who rushes into the raging river you do not heed calls of warning.

Lust is present whether it be man or teen.Without lust there is no sex.You cannot desire to sleep with someone without lust.Lust is sex.Sex is lust.

You are being selfish.You are thinking of whats best for you.In no way can a 15 year old dating a 32 year old be good in any case.American teens are especially childish compared to any other country.

You are lieing to yourself and on this board in many ways.

First you say you do not care if she sleeps with others which cannot be love btw.I dont not know anyone who truly loves someone and lets them be with others.If you love her would it not hurt with the pain of a thousand fires on flesh at the very thought of her being with another? You then say,That's why I decided to wait a couple of years at least before we get sexual if we do, even if she gets it from someone else I'll just have to be understanding about it since she's already sexually active. Which means you are not ok with it obviously or you wouldnt have to TRY to be understanding about it.That denotes it does bother you.So either it bothers you or you are just infatuated with her which is what I suspect.

AGAIN LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR.If you have no lust for her why are you even thinking about anything remotely sexual at all?Let alone debate about it whether to get sexual or not.

You are very deluded and lieing to yourself.Lust is defined as a Longing desire and/or eagerness to possess or enjoy.If you did not desire to have sex with her why would you then?It if was not enjoyable again why would you want to?Clearly both things apply and it is lust.Lust is ever present in all beings.

If she would go elsewhere for sex.That clearly denotes she does not love you.I love my fiancee with more love than most people can imagine.If I had to lay my life down for her I would instantly without hesitation.Our love transcends words.I could not very well bear even the slightest thought of her even kissing or hugging another.That is very painful to think about.I cannot imagine how,if you do love her as you say,you can bear to let her be intimate with others?Obviously either you are lieing or dont care.Neither is healthy.

No matter what justification you think up,she is a child...in body,in mind,in everything.And you are a fully grown man with a daughter of 12.If you cannot see that it is wrong,something is wrong with you.How can you possibly think any good will come of this?Why would you even want to tie her down like that?Again you are being selfish.However very few human beings arent selfish.Money is selfish.Desire is selfish.I could list all your selfish indulgences and all the selfish reasons you are pursuing such a relationship.But even them you would rush into the raging river against my warning.

As a father,I expected alot more of you.Im not trying to be mean about it but Im being honest.As a father I would expect you to realize how wrong this is.And eventually your daughter will hate you for this as well even if not at first.Have you even considered your daughter in all this?Probably not.The selfishness is ever pervasive in this whole topic.

If it is so right name one morally upstanding man who would pursue or has pursued a similar relationship.


--------------------
"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."


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Offlinepsilifun_guy
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Re: age difference [Re: HarveyWalbanger]
    #2979009 - 08/08/04 06:05 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

HarveyWalbanger said:
Well.... this thread has outlived its usefulness......


agreed...I've replied to all these points already. Thanks for the input all.

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OfflinePotIsYourFriend
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2980036 - 08/09/04 12:39 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

psilifun_guy whats your normal sign in name, the one that you use the most. I would like to know who you are so I can stay as far away from you as possible. And anyone else who thinks its ok to fuck a 15 yr old when your 32..


I hope the parents press charges before you do anything to ruin this girls life...

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2980646 - 08/09/04 06:17 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

...I've read the whole thread, but I'm kinda missing a flavor in the stew: my own  :smirk: So even though you decided, i'll toss mine in as this thread, like many on Support, is bigger then the situation posted and others who are in a similar situation will read the thread for reference to their own lives.
You used a pseudonym, but many others wouldn't have posted at all.

Let me try to scratch socio-cultural factors and strip it down to biological realities. This will ofcourse mean I won't win the popularity contest here but frankly it isnt a priority over my sense i need to say what needs be said.


The Law.
Well.. Fuck the Law.
Lemme rephrase that: open the lawbook, stick your lubed-up cock between the band and the bindings and physically -fuck- the law.
Killing is wrooong.. But somehow its OK to export electroshock torture devices to more openly obtuse regimes, and its ok to export landmines that are specifically designed to take -half- a leg of, not show up on metal detectors and on top of that lay dormant for many years after the safety is taken off.
Open the lawbook, stick your lubed-up cock between the band and the bindings and physically -fuck- the law.


Now, then there are the people.
You see alot of negativity directed at you in this thread. You are right: most is culturally biased.
But think about this one: These posts are a clear indicator about where random people stand. Online chatting people have a tendency to discuss things. These posts are in all respects the internet equivalent of the more physically inclined -outsiders- who are willing to show you the error of your ways with a two-by-four or a shotgun. The lynching mob doesnt care for details: all they care for if someone actually brought a rope and what they could use to hoist you up. (these less-friendly chatters aren't a lynching mob, but statistically represent the likelyness of someone hurting you in RL before entering intellectual dialog)


Let me arbitrarily tear your brain in two.
We Homo Sapiens have recently aquired this funky thing called the Neocortex which makes us human; it allows us to plant seeds and smoke flowers and to make the nation's percieved enemies burn in the nuclear fire of our righteousness. :frown:

So basically you got this "human/intellectual" self and the ancient "ancestral/emotional" Inner Ape. If you are anxious to the extent of getting fear/aggression responses on the mere mention of your boss, you lull your Inner Ape with a Valium to stay in the shitty job you ended up in.


Now to the heart of the matter.
Your Inner Ape desires her and quite frankly he'd like to bone her substantially, wants to protect her while her gut swells with your offspring, lead the family group and then according to Oprah Winfrey statistics likely "just throw her away to pursue another like she doesnt mean anything to you".

Your Human Self however substantially enriches and self-justifies its organismic actions to not get you kicked out of the tribe or into other bothersome situations.
Your Human Self is the one that right now likely incites the anger of your Inner Ape about those horrible phrases like "making her gut swell with your offspring" and tries to tar all i write next with pitch to avoid getting your feelings hurt.

Well sorry: if you deny your Inner Ape you're every bit as self-deluding and twisted as a presidential candidate.

I really believe you believe to truely love her. I have seen no -conclusive- signs you deliberately talk yourself into nonexistant love feelings so since you are by definition your own expert i will not dispute you likely are in love.
But don't suck and admit to yourself your Inner Ape wants to bone her. Don't cover it up with the intellectualizing Human side because the hallmarks (protectiveness, erotic inner conflict, slight obsessive fixation to just her) are all there and your rationalizer is busy a-rationalizin' and even checks the pulse of the tribe as to whether this would go.

Biologically it would go, and I dont just mean sizes, pelvic and mammary gland development issues but also that if she indeed is quite mature and you would be comparably in balance there's no biological cause to stamp "DOOM" all over your considerations and assassinate your character on little more then a selection of your 1.000 words in this thread.

Young kids all over the world decide in matters of life-and-death by wielding AK-47s and our good first-world arms manufacturers provide and export full-caliber full-auto assault rifles at 2/3 of regular size to fill the void between what a Khalash' weighs and what a 12yo third-world kid can comfortably carry. So thats our true society.

Among tribes I must say thirty-two and fifteen is quite an unusual pairing but it happens and is approved of in many cultures.
It is a biological possibility, a reality and the cultural taboo on 32/15 isnt nearly universal so dooming it isnt realistic per se.


But! You have noticed you got a whole bunch of flak here and you'd better heed that. You -know- it carries great taboo among the people in your society. As for culture, it is ranked among the biggest vices. Many more people would be likely to use violence on YOU (i know you didnt do nothing) then on, say, the Unabomber when he was still posting his flames to take technology offline.

I'm laying such emphasis on you because all people are by nature selfish in all things, which thus is OK.
"I love you" equals "I'm getting such high off of you" and "she brings out the best in me" can be seen in same context.

Now let's shift it to the bigger picture:
Right now you and your rather young girl are into a relationship that both of you know is highly frowned upon in your society. Every sizable street has a dude in it that will beat you up for the situation you are in now and if you got physical and busted you'd end up in a prison full of these righteous chaps.

Your girl however is entangled into a relationship she cannot relate to her peergroup friends, in fact she has to hide it to avoid harm on you and shame on her. If she is eager to get sexual she might be into the thrill of the forbidden and it actually may be a ram-bam-thankyou-MAN :shocked: kinda sexthing as she is of a full-size AK-47 bearing age if you look at it from a global perspective.

The two of you might be partners for life. But it may far more likely be an in-and-out-thing (no pun intended) of some months or perhaps years.

Your Inner Ape wants to bang her, just like many guys in your home town want to bang you with a baseball bat for even thinking of it.
Don't deny it, a part of you is growing towards the idea of getting physical. Otherwise there would ber no thread, because you'd then be just friends of unusual ages and the issues of this thread would not exist. It is the love of partners, not that of friends thats debated here.

In your society there is a strong likelyness that you and your rather young girl will end up worse off. She wouldnt be able to relate it to her peer group, most people she told it to years after the fact would come down hard on "that pervert that molested you" and view her less favorably and there'll be quite some social stigma.

People have this romantic notion of prison where they drop the soap in the showers and let you reach for it. The reality is they will drop that bar of soap in a sock, beat the shit out of you and then inoculate you with five strains of AIDS through sperm-to-blood contact.
So I won't say it necessarilly will be harder on her then on you.


Bottom line:  It's pretty clear what your Inner Ape is up to, and from a biological point of view he isn't being a 'sick little monkey' about it.

The tribe (society) is such aligned that they will try their best to make you and your rather young girl unhappy. Just look at the postings you got, they are a reflection of the world out there. Even if you could convince everyone here it is all right between you two (which it might be) it is more difficult when it involves her parents, more so with family and impossible if applied to society.
It is, on the social level, a recepy to the likeliness of strong unhappiness for her, you and the people who get worked up about it, and its likely to not to last for years anyway.
(according to the Oprah Winfrey statistics on -any- relationship)

Your "defense" is that of Higher Love.
True Higher Love can wait, decades if it need be, three years are peanuts. If you both stay --celibate-- and --devoted-- for three more years the odds are greatly in favor of Higher Love. (Oprah: you go girl :grin:)

If you or her cannot keep their Inner Ape on a leash for three years (most can't) then Lust is a big part of it, the chance of Higher Love drops and bedding her before 18 would then be reckless endangerment of the two of you because of garden-variety Lust, which in my view is NOT WORTH THE PAINS SHE OR YOU WILL LIKELY SUFFER FOR IT.

True Love, Higher Love, can wait. Especially in this case. If you both kep it non-physical for three more years an d then still love each other by all means go ahead. Your friends and her friends will call you a cradlerobber but it would be in fun. The two of you will actually have gained character because of that abstinence and devotion. Something questionable then becomes (in my view) something admirable because most guys think "platonic" is a sex position from the Kama Sutra.

If you keep your Inner Ape on a leash for three years you have proven to yourself, her and others you are not out to take advantage but are serious about the Higher Love and the have self-control needed for a relationship which is to last.

If either decides to move on to another in those three platonic years then it is for the better, as it was not to last anyway.
The three years will strengthen both your characters, show the -realness- of those loving words and faithfulness.
You, as the older one who HAS to take responsibility will have made the choice to save yourself and your own from harm by self-control and that is among the best traits a partner can display.
If you Truely Love her..
Wait 1.000 days :heart:



In case you think i'm a christian fundamentalist with the morality talk I can tell you that I'm a writer of hardcore humanoid yaoi pornography who is very aqainted with both the Inner Ape and the Higher Self. I hope this piece (that took a LOT of my time) will strengthen you in your already made decision to not get physical just yet. Do the Right Thing. You wouldn't HAVE an inner struggle (and post on Support) if you didnt feel there was a Wrong Thing.

So, Anonymous One:
Put your Inner Ape on a leash and Do The Right Thing.


--------------------
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OfflineLocus
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Re: age difference [Re: Asante]
    #2980755 - 08/09/04 07:55 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

That's good advice, keep that ape on a leash


--------------------

The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity. ~ Albert Einstein
"Fear is the great barrier to human growth." ~ Dr. Robert Monroe



~~~*Dosis sola facit venenum*~~~

*Check my profile to listen to my music* :smile:

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Offlinediscoabe
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2980789 - 08/09/04 08:14 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Do you think your 12 year old daughter will ask your girl for help in her classes, since she just took them 3 years ago she should prolly be pretty keen on the subjects. I think that is the worst part of this whole monster post.

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OfflineHarveyWalbanger
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Re: age difference [Re: discoabe]
    #2980839 - 08/09/04 08:47 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

ugh........fuckin quit with the flames... even if its a cotrovercial topic and you think hes a monster, and would like to break his legs, DOES NOT give you the right to blatently break rules of the website...  you KNOW the rules of support group central, please follow them....
:whack:

This thread needs to be locked hardcore, while we can still see the good info in it :P

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: age difference [Re: Locus]
    #2980995 - 08/09/04 09:57 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Poster: Locus
Subject: Re: age difference

That's good advice, keep that ape on a leash



...that does not quite sound like intended I think!


I'd say let's -not- close this thread unless on the threadstarter's own request. It's a highly controversial topic. Some posts to my opinion are intended more as a punch down then a helping hand to get up from a personal dilemma.

If the threadstarter doesn't feel the need and the Shroomery core rules aren't compromised i'd say keep this one up.

People should be allowed to be people to some extent, whether they bring up a taboo issue or fulminate against it. Let the reader be the judge in things. I'm glad the anonymous Shroomerite posted this thread and involves us in his personal dilemma. The presence of less-then-supportive posts to me indicates that his judgement to stay anonymous was sound and his appreciation of the severety of the taboo was justified.

Let's not nuke the ongoing discussion because of some perhaps harsh unhelpful posts. If there is to be nuking at all I'd say it should be the posts that violate Shroomery rules beyond reasonable stretching. Sometimes the follow-up posters "can't handle it" too, we're only human!


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here

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OfflinePotIsYourFriend
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Re: age difference [Re: Asante]
    #2981744 - 08/09/04 01:23 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Dont lock the thread that would be retarded. Sure its ok in alot of countries to have sex with a 15 year old. But it still doesn't make it right. I'm no bible thumper but just imagine if your 15year old daughter said she was involved with a man twice her age. Would you really still find it ok?

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OfflineHarveyWalbanger
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Re: age difference [Re: PotIsYourFriend]
    #2982384 - 08/09/04 03:44 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

The subject alone is rabid flame bait.... but to each his own I suppose....

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Offlinepsilifun_guy
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2982788 - 08/09/04 05:20 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan Seeker:
Your Inner Ape desires her and quite frankly he'd like to bone her substantially, wants to protect her while her gut swells with your offspring, lead the family group and then according to Oprah Winfrey statistics likely "just throw her away to pursue another like she doesnt mean anything to you".


Well sorry: if you deny your Inner Ape you're every bit as self-deluding and twisted as a presidential candidate.

I really believe you believe to truely love her. I have seen no -conclusive- signs you deliberately talk yourself into nonexistant love feelings so since you are by definition your own expert i will not dispute you likely are in love.
But don't suck and admit to yourself your Inner Ape wants to bone her. Don't cover it up with the intellectualizing Human side because the hallmarks (protectiveness, erotic inner conflict, slight obsessive fixation to just her) are all there and your rationalizer is busy a-rationalizin' and even checks the pulse of the tribe as to whether this would go.



Your girl however is entangled into a relationship she cannot relate to her peergroup friends, in fact she has to hide it to avoid harm on you and shame on her. If she is eager to get sexual she might be into the thrill of the forbidden and it actually may be a ram-bam-thankyou-MAN

Your Inner Ape wants to bang her, just like many guys in your home town want to bang you with a baseball bat for even thinking of it.
Don't deny it, a part of you is growing towards the idea of getting physical. Otherwise there would ber no thread, because you'd then be just friends of unusual ages and the issues of this thread would not exist. It is the love of partners, not that of friends thats debated here.

Your "defense" is that of Higher Love.
True Higher Love can wait, decades if it need be, three years are peanuts. If you both stay --celibate-- and --devoted-- for three more years the odds are greatly in favor of Higher Love.




Ok, leave the thread open but I don't plan on contributing much. I've received a number of attacks here and it's too time consuming to defend myself, especially when contributors fail to look thru the thread to see if I've replied to the issue they plan to post on.

Also, I'm tired as hell right now so sleep deprivation may sap quality in this post. I was up all last nite at her house talking(.) with her and just got home from work.

The lust isn't that much of an issue for me. I don't want her pregnant, I don't want to head the family. I simply want to share life with her, that's it. I'm not denying anything, I try to move beyond the inner ape because that is part of the path to enlightenment. Yes, she's a special person and beautiful and I'd like to have sex with her too but maybe because of her age, the sexual attraction isn't that strong. I seriously haven't even kissed her. We've spent a substantial amount of time together but nothing has progressed. The big reason for the whole topic of sex with her is that she is sexually active. I am sexual active. We have had an intimate, adult relationship with no sexual activity for 3 months. I'm not sexually frustrated. I know how to take care of that but it seems like a waste of an area of the relationship to her, frankly, to me too.

'Throw her away' isn't part of 'the' plan. I hope my point from a previous page on that topic was simply overlooked when you read thru the thread. I'm no dummy, neither is she. She comes from a well to do Jewish family with quick minds and busy hands; I'm a college educated, well respected man that is getting by pretty well. If I wanted sex from her, my inner ape would have taken care of that weeks ago. That's all I can say on that topic. Contributors keep going back to it but I could have already had sex many times with her with no repercussions.

It is her friendship that means the most to me and what I want to hold on to.

Society's reaction did play a factor in my decision to start this thread. I'm not really on the 'pulse of the tribe' because I don't live within x-ian moral standards. So part of the reason for this thread was to get a fair look at a community reaction.

She doesn't hide me from her friends. I've met some of them and even let a childhood friend of hers stay in my house while he was in town to visit her.

Good point, love of partners-not friends being debated. That is better wording because we are more partners than friends.

No growing need for her sex. Just the same steady nag I've had for weeks now. I can deal with it.

Society's reaction being reflected in the posts here I know. I agree that 3 years isn't too long to wait. It just seems like a waste but if we EVER did something that might hurt her emotionally later like adrug, it wouldn't be at all worth it.

I believe in free love. I've said I'm a deadhead so this practice is accepted and understood among some of my peers. A sacrifice that strengthens me also allows her to share herself although she hasn't yet. Yes, it would bother (the ape in) me some, but to me...true love is letting each other be who we are and not putting selfish wants up. Real love is not possessive. It cares enough to let go. Possessive love is just a degree of infatuation.
Quote:

potisyourfriend:I'm no bible thumper but just imagine if your 15year old daughter said she was involved with a man twice her age. Would you really still find it ok?


yes. I said this earlier in this thread. I would rather my daughter be with a stable, mature man than a horny teenage boy.

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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2982857 - 08/09/04 05:41 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I think I'll add something else to this thread.

When I was 16, I began talking to a 31 year old man I met off the internet. Our relationship evolved to phone conversations, and after a year of this, I was ready to meet him.

My parents flipped out. They didn't trust my judgement at all. Long story short, I defied them and flew from Texas to Chicago to meet this guy.

He was honestly one of the nicest people I've ever met. He was gentle and considerate of me, and even when I threw myself sexually at him, he did not take advantage of me. I can't say that a younger man would have done the same thing.

The point is, that no, young girls often do not know what they want. I know I didn't, and I (and everyone else) thought I was mature for my age.

The other point, is that I felt safer and more comfortable with this older man then any guy my own age. He only had honorable intentions and we appreciated one another's company.

Our relationship did not last, but to this day we are good friends.

I guess based on my own experience that I owe you the benefit of a doubt, psilifun guy. Just make sure to keep being honest with yourself of your feelings with her, and make sure that you treat her with honor and integrity.

Anyway, just wanted to share my story of a similar situation.

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OfflineHarveyWalbanger
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Re: age difference [Re: MOTH]
    #2982913 - 08/09/04 05:58 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I take it back, there IS stuff still to be contributed........    carry on :smile:

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: age difference [Re: PotIsYourFriend]
    #2982920 - 08/09/04 05:59 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PotIsYourFriend said:
Dont lock the thread that would be retarded. Sure its ok in alot of countries to have sex with a 15 year old. But it still doesn't make it right. I'm no bible thumper but just imagine if your 15year old daughter said she was involved with a man twice her age. Would you really still find it ok?



Some would, and some wouldn't. From reading this thread, it sounds like the girl's parents are ok with it.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinepsilifun_guy
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Re: age difference [Re: MOTH]
    #2983428 - 08/09/04 08:30 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

EllemyshShade said:I guess based on my own experience that I owe you the benefit of a doubt, psilifun guy. Just make sure to keep being honest with yourself of your feelings with her, and make sure that you treat her with honor and integrity.


Thank you for contributing, Michelle, your comments are appreciated in any context. I'll follow your advice and see that others treat her with honor and integrity as well. She's a true lady with class and character and her company commands as much.

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OfflineBarbi
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2983922 - 08/09/04 11:12 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

You still only hear what you want to hear.

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Offlinemasterg
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Re: age difference [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2984602 - 08/10/04 02:00 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

HypnoToad said:
Maturity is a false Idea conjured from the depths of societies ideal.It is also a way for humanity to justify things that otherwise wouldnt be ok.No matter the age of this girl...it will never work out.She hasnt really lived life yet and you have lived quite a bit.This for her is really just something she's trying,something experimental however sooner or later she will find a guy her own age or she will realize she hasnt lived yet.No matter how you paint it a 32 year old knows better (or should) and its his duty to tell the girl no.Because it is definitely not in her best interest and surely not in yours.That is one reason there are laws against such relationships.A 15 year old cant handle a relationship with a 32 year old.No matter how mature she seems she is not emotionally able to handle a relationship with a 32 year old.Typically girls her age who seek men significantly older then themselves usually has a problematic relationship with their father or none at all and they then seek a replacement in their dating life to try to fill that void.However one can support and mentor someone as a friend.





:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


--------------------
Peace,
masterg

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2984880 - 08/10/04 04:38 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Also, I'm tired as hell right now so sleep deprivation may sap quality in this post. I was up all last nite at her house talking(.) with her and just got home from work.




hey i dont want to sound cranky but please reread my post as you might have misread some things by the late hour.
I genuinely mean well for all involved and most often I lay much more meaning in my posts than most people get out of it when they read them.


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Offlinecastaway
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Re: age difference [Re: Asante]
    #2984957 - 08/10/04 06:18 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:I'm laying such emphasis on you because all people are by nature selfish in all things,




I disagree.

75% of the contributors on this site are from the U.S. so I expect the standard U.S. moral equivalent to dominate BUT we are a multi-national group expressing our opinions in front of multi-national spectators.

There ARE people who wish to override and derride all opinions except the official U.S. perspective, and it is this lack of respect for cultural differences that will remove the Shroomery from it's standing amongst the top big-boards on the net.

The eyes of the world are upon us. Do we have what it takes to hear the personal perspectives of Kings and Presidents?

The selfish nature of US vs Them isn't going to win confidence from the international crowd who may wish to attend the Olympics (yeah, in Our city).

So yeah, we each have our moral perspectives on every issue, but let's respect the reality that there ARE other cultures amongst us, and I hope we can be considerate and peacefull for the little time that we may enjoy the status of hosting Presidents and Kings.

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OfflineHypnoToad
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Re: age difference [Re: castaway]
    #2984980 - 08/10/04 06:56 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Merely because there are other cultures that exist where this is acceptable does not automatically mean it's ok.I feel it doesnt have anything to do with being "culturally biased" nor merely the morals of religion etc,not for me at least.

Just because its legal in other cultures and countries doesnt mean its morally or ethically right.Legal doesnt equate to moral/ethical nor does illegal equate to immoral/unethical.

Also just because it occurs in other countries does not mean its healthy mentally/emotionally for these children.Many other countries (not all) where the age is lower are also alot of 3rd world places.Or poor places in general.The US is more advanced than the majority of the world.Alot of countries have also raised their age limits in recent years even if only by a little bit.

Statistically speaking as well about half of all teen pregnancies are cause by men who are adults.This is alarming since these men dont stick around or get thrown in jail.That means one out of every two teens who are pregnant dont have the kid's father around let alone the support they need.Undoubtedly the age difference is a major factor in the short lived quality of these relationships.These facts are one reason the laws are much stricter in the US.These things have become quite problematic in recent years especially.

Many teens are also forever scarred by these sort of relationships.Whether it was abusive or not.Its somethign they tend to carry for a long time if not forever.

What I cannot understand is the reasoning for it being ok,such as: "They're culturally biased and thats why US citizens are against it." Are not non US citizens also culturally biased?Say its 14 in their culture and not 18 like a good portion of the US if not most of the US.Then they would be biased and all for this sort of relationship.That street is a two way street.US people may be biased because of culture but non us people can be just as biased because the age is lower in their culture.

But whether or not its legal and whether or not the age is above 15 or about 15 and below for age of consent...I have yet to hear one good reason why it's ok period.Regardless of what the laws and cultures are like.Why is it ok or not ok for this sort of relationship then?

My reasoning for it not being ok is clear.15 is still a child developmentally especially in the us and the slow development of us children/teens compared to the rest of the world.This will be emotionally damaging regardless and also with him being much older he will be the dominant person and she will just be very submissive and go along with ALOT just because she will feel inferior duie to the large age gap which is also going to be damaging.Healthy relationships are a 50/50 thing.Each person gives the same amount of effort.Each person gives half to the relationship.Neither is dominant over the other in any way really.In such an age gap it will be more like him 80% and her 20% in contributing to the relationship(maybe even 90/10).She will just go along with the majority of things and look to him as a father because of the difference whether or not her relationship is ok with her father or not.This is also very unhealthy.So far I have also seen nothing healthy about this relationship either.So far there is everything pointing against it and nothing pointing for it.

The reason most long term/lasting relationships have people relatively close in age is that with any sort of significant age gap the older one starts to become mroe the dominant person in the relationship automatically the further the gap goes.

Also being 32 means in 10 years one will be signicantly aged looking where-as her being 15 will only make her 25 and in her prime in pretty much all ways where-as he will be 42 and past his peak by far.Aging will speed up rapidly and by the time she is barely 30 he will be 47 and likely out of shape and very gray...she will be fairly youthful looking yet and wanting to life live quit fast paced yet.This adds a whole new dimension of problems.(sighs)

Nothing will likely ever be healthy in this situation not now,not ever.The fact that such a relationship was pursued in itself is unhealthy.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: age difference [Re: castaway]
    #2985369 - 08/10/04 09:51 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I disagree.

75% of the contributors on this site are from the U.S. so I expect the standard U.S. moral equivalent to dominate BUT we are a multi-national group expressing our opinions in front of multi-national spectators.

There ARE people who wish to override and derride all opinions except the official U.S. perspective, and it is this lack of respect for cultural differences that will remove the Shroomery from it's standing amongst the top big-boards on the net.

The eyes of the world are upon us. Do we have what it takes to hear the personal perspectives of Kings and Presidents?

The selfish nature of US vs Them isn't going to win confidence from the international crowd who may wish to attend the Olympics (yeah, in Our city).

So yeah, we each have our moral perspectives on every issue, but let's respect the reality that there ARE other cultures amongst us, and I hope we can be considerate and peacefull for the little time that we may enjoy the status of hosting Presidents and Kings. 








hUH?! :confused:

I honestly and sincerely don't see what you're meaning by this.. You react to a post i made a few posts back and quote that one with my claim that humans by their very nature are selfish, you disagree and then.. whaaaaa?

I've read some posts around it but dont see the link. If you proceeded to react to my post..

I'm not a USA American but a Dutch European. My post is richly decorated with phrases like "in your culture" because i percieve the original poster to be among the 75% USA Americans (people from Peru are Americans too, hence the USA) populace.

At times I seem to rub off as anti-USA or anarchistic. It's not in the least bit true, it's rather i have a vivid dislike of "powers that be", cultural aspects and organisations that keep the general populace in a state of diminished happiness for their own gain.
I am the mortal enemy of detrimental delusion, both imposed by others or by people upon themselves.

Personally I believe as to the selfishness quote that self-interest lies at the root of all decisions a person makes. Even those pooor do-gooders who run into a blazing building to rescue a kitten say. "I really felt I should do it" which meant they worked towards their own spiritual gratification which outweighed the third-degree burns.

Selfishness is a good thing in itself :smirk: unless it gets to the point where it becomes contrary to group desirability. Only those who love themselves can love another:  it has to start from within. If you are at a rock concert and interrupt your delightful trip to shove your arm up an overflowing toiletbowl to retrieve an old ladies dentures while barfing in disgust you don't seem selfish, but in fact you are fulfilling a need -you- feel. If you didnt feel the need to do it -for you- you would park your trippin' ass on the bowl, take a dump and then let the poor lady look for it herself. Helping the little old lady feels better for -you- then spending the second half of your trip with an arm full of shite feels bad and thats why you do it.
Thank God for the selfishness that leads to helping others or Support Central would be a barren wasteland.
If posting supportively gives you a bad feeling you stop doing it.

Contrary to promoting cultural taboo I deliberately shook off general cultural bias and in my view "got real" before introducing my perception of the culture our anonymous online community member was in.
To help him with my personal insights on the matter, to offer a new piece of the puzzle and stimulate balanced thread discussion and enhanced empathy on all sides, rattling away at a 1-hour Support group post.  :heart:

Kings & Presidents can slip me a PM too and i'm willing to chat with them if they got ICQ  :smirk: 
Seriously, one never knows who is reading these posts. It could indeed be Kings & Presidents. Stephen Hawking might be that annoying n00b on Sci who thinks he knows it all, and the one showing off his outdoor cubie pics may be Tony Danza. What we do know is that the anti-terrorism boys of ECHELON will check out this very thread now that I say that the plane's bin laden on kennedy airport unless they finally decided to push the ignore button on me. (bless you guys :heart:)

But I have far more care for those who need it and I really try to do some good. If I come off as odd that's a matter of too much LSD in the 90s :evil:but I try nothing but be constructive here and I'm very glad to see the same in your post.


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OfflineLocus
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Re: age difference [Re: Asante]
    #2985435 - 08/10/04 10:11 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Right on :thumbup:

.. and sorry for the "keep that ape on a leash" without adding until she's 18, hehe :smile:


--------------------

The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity. ~ Albert Einstein
"Fear is the great barrier to human growth." ~ Dr. Robert Monroe



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OfflineKillBill
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Re: age difference [Re: discoabe]
    #2985622 - 08/10/04 11:08 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

No one can say Love is Wrong, especially if its two ways and not a one sided thing. If she feels she loves you, then she's old enough to know what love is. I have known girls younger than myself who have shown maturity more than myself (And how the hell can you say maturity doesn't exist? Its the ability of ones mind to process and find solutions in an orderly and responsible manner to the everyday shit that goes on in our lives), and at least as much intelligence. when their personality and interests are similar to mine, and a chemistry develops you cannot Deny the meaning that has. perhaps Romantic love isn't what you need, perhaps you should just be friends for a while? Let time pass and see where you two stand after more time. If she means that much to you, wait till she's legal before having sex or Going to her parents, you owe them at least that much not to add such a confliction into their lives (a conflict with the law). Love can exist and be non sexual, i think thats what you need to remember. Wherever you will be in 10 years and what color your hair is going to be is not important now, nor will it be then if your love stays true, keep in mind that if you are in love (and not lust) and so is she then Everyday from now till then will be a joy (excluding the days of impossible-to-predict quarrels that will evolve in your relationship, which, will either conclude your relationship early [another reason not to have sex till shes legal, women can be quite evil] or if you successfully move past those problems will only strengthen it.

You will be judged by those who know you, and those who don't know you, Anyone who knows who you are involved with will pass judgement usually and if you're goign to remain stronger than that and realize that the Gov't Doesn't know love, they dont' have legal experts on when the best age is for someone to fall in love nor do they know when two souls mesh in just the right way that there can be no pulling them apart... so Do what you FEEL is appropriate, but be cautious and please, think with the right head - before some of the posters here have their way and chop it off.

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Offlinecastaway
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Re: age difference [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2985721 - 08/10/04 11:44 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

HypnoToad said:
Nothing will likely ever be healthy in this situation not now,not ever.The fact that such a relationship was pursued in itself is unhealthy.





Again I disagree,

There are instances where severe isolation of a minor can cause them to identify with an adult, and in response to that plea, the adult may respond in a manner not normaly associated with apropriate conduct.

The child may go on to reprove the adult, thru peer presure, but that doesn't make the compassionate response of the adult at that time, and in those circumstances, invalid.

What the CORRECT response is, is a matter of personal opinion, but I hope that whatever is judged to be the correct response is born out of love for the individual in those circumstances, rather than the reliance on an iron-clad standard of ethics.

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OfflineKillBill
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Re: age difference [Re: castaway]
    #2986259 - 08/10/04 02:04 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Religions suck, they're the worst set of iron-clad laws in existance

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OfflineHypnoToad
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Re: age difference [Re: castaway]
    #2987937 - 08/10/04 07:13 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

rather than the reliance on an iron-clad standard of ethics.




What is meant by this?

In any case I do not blieve this sort of thing is ok.Then again Ive seen case after case,Ive seen the results of such a thing time and time again.I guarantee if the people here who think this is ok, saw actual cases and actual damage done they would change their minds about their opinion.Talk is cheap.People give all sorts of advice they wouldnt take themselves.They spout off things that go against society for kicks.I am beginning to think this is the case since I have not been given even one good reason or one reason at all why it is a good thing or why it is ok.All I see posted over and over is claims of culturally biased responses.Yet if one believes it is ok b/c of other cultures that is alo a form of being culturally biased especially if its their culture.

Others claim its because of christian morals even though porbably about half the people here or so arent even likely to be christian or religious.Ive seen more people of non christian religions here by far.

If one person cannot say this is right period and feel it is right without any doubt or questioning.It is very likely to be moral.However this is immoral even according to the man who posted this topic since he doubted alot and was under debate.He knows it isnt right and everyone can see his trying to justify alot to make himself feel better or feel less wrong about it.

BTw,Inappropiate conduct isnt likely to be healthy.Read what you write castaway it doesnt even make sense in response to what I said.Its not even relevant.And true compassion is without passion or lust.Any else is taking advantage.Humans are naturally selfish and take advantage of many things.It is how humans survive so long and so well.Its a requirement.And in such a situation the results of such a thing will lead to emotional damage to the child/teen.

Castaway I doubt you even have any knowledge of child psychology or any real cases of such emotional damage.Correct response is not a matter of personal opinion either.Any that is damaging is ill or bad conduct.Anything that causes problems is ill conduct and so on.If it gives good feelings and promotes peace or happiness,and doesn not cause problems or fights or damage is very likely to be good conduct.Those ill of mind who derive pleasure from bad things like killing do not count because they are out of touch with reality,conduct and morals.Their mind is very lost and confused.

In all fairness a 37 year old dating a 20 year old is also very unhealthy.In gemeral age differences that ar large tip the balance severely toward the older person making them the dominant person by far.And it causes all the same problems usually as a 15 year old dating a much older person.Most people really arent ready to think of family until mid 20's or later and until then most people shouldnt look for serious relationships really as they rarely last at such ages.Partying,short relationships,etc are all part of psychological development,without these things they will later in life wonder what they missed and try to relive it at an older age carrying much emotional baggage and damage and so forth.Very unhealthy.(sighs)

Castaway if you are for this type of relationship,give me one good reason why it is healthy or moral or right.You seem to not have a leg to stand on and seem to be merely swimming upstream.No offense intended of course.


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"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."


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OfflineHypnoToad
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Re: age difference [Re: KillBill]
    #2988016 - 08/10/04 07:33 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Religions suck, they're the worst set of iron-clad laws in existance




My religion has no iron clad laws.At most it has suggested rules which do not have to be followed but would be better if you did.

Some atheists I know have stricter morals than most people do.

Human nature is to do the right thing but some humans ignore this and suppress it and do immoral things despite what they know to be true and they lie to themselves.Children naturally do whats right until they learn otherwise from role models,society or elsewhere.This overrides instinct.Do most people not feel bad if they do something wrong.If they hurt someone do they not feel guilty.So people are no longer capable of remorse or capable of feeling bad so this does not apply to them since they long supressed such feelings.I have yet to meet one good/pure hearted person who would even dare dream of this type of relationship.Since pure hjearted people are the prime example of Good and morality yet they do not engage in such conduct,in and of itself proves it is immoral.

Religious does not wequate to pure hearted or good.Many immoral people have religion.In fact I believe that more immoral people are religious than moral people due to they fact that they feel the need for religion/god and the need to feel saved from their sins,their wrong doings.Good people/moral people have no use for a god.What do they need saving from?

To clear things up I am buddhist and do not believe in god.I also have no moral laws set out for me.There are suggested rules but they do not have to be followed.No where does it say you must follow this and that and if you dont you burn in hell lmao

I do not believe in a god or gods.I am godless.Yet I am not immoral.I do what I feel is right and just and pure.I follow my inner intuition and sense of right conduct.

I do not kill even the smallest insect.Why?Not because I was told or taught not to but because it feels very wrong to deny anyone life whatsoever and it is immoral.Humans are arrogant.Humans feel above the level of animals when we are animals ourselves.

Everyone has a sense of morals from a young age.As life goes on they either get better or worse depending.But ive not known a healthy child brought up in a healthy home to just be immoral.

And if relgions/belief systems "suck" then why since the beginning of man did man always seek religion/a belief system?

It is unnatural to go against or without a religion or set of beliefs.Man left top his own devices devises a belief system of some sort god/gods or not.Laws always exist whether natural or manmade and whether or not you see them.


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"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."


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OfflineHypnoToad
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Re: age difference [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2988093 - 08/10/04 07:49 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

All in all to be honest I feel there are too many childish individuals here with a few very wise individuals who know who they are.

All this post is filled with boils essentially down to something akin to a child saying well so-so does so why cant I.Only a couple people here really gave any insight on this and everyone else is like children pointing fingers and making odd/unusual claims without thought.

Please think before responding.

Whether or not someone else does it is totally irrelevant.Cannibals eat people in many countries and cultures yet it doesnt mean its moral conduct.In some cultures killing is very much allowed and not seen as bad.However it is not automatically right because its ok in their culture.Cultural upbringing is irrelevant to morality.What is moral is always right.Not right in one culture and wrong in another.

Religion is also irrelevant.No matter what religion anyone comes from doesnt affect one's moral as much as people would think it does.The effect is slight if any.Christians arent supposed to kill,commit adultery,be gay/lesbian etc according to their religion yet many christians do it all the time.Most do not pay attention to religous rules.

If a majority of people feel something is wrong it probably is because a majority of people, innately are moral.


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"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."


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Offlinecastaway
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Re: age difference [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2989636 - 08/11/04 02:39 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

HypnoToad said:
What is meant by this? "rather than the reliance on an iron-clad standard of ethics."




The spontaneity and freedom of expression exhibited in play may cross the boundaries of accepted customs or standards, but that doesn't mean play is unhealthy.

I'm not talking about abuse, rape and taking advantage of people, I'm talking about playful interaction.

Some people discourage playful interaction between groups of vastly different age on ethical and moral grounds but such a stance does more harm than good in my opinion.

You have claimed (see note) that play that crosses boundaries of what is considered to be morally or ethicaly right is not healthy mentally or emotionaly for children, but I disagree in that the absence of play between age groups can result in more severe cases of stunted emotional growth and damage to society on the global scale by simply taking a wellmeaning stand and quoting morals and ethics for an argument.

note:
Quote:

HypnoToad said:
Just because its legal in other cultures and countries doesnt mean its morally or ethically right...Also just because it occurs in other countries does not mean its healthy mentally/emotionally for these children.



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Invisiblewandrnshaman
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Re: age difference [Re: psilifun_guy]
    #2989819 - 08/11/04 04:56 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I don't see anything wrong with it as long as its not just a 'sex thing'. There's alot of opinions in the replies here. If someone has a different set of morals than I do, that doesn't make either one of us wrong or right. What makes our decisions right is if we are committed to doing what we feel to ourselves is right. Morals are a personal set of boundaries.

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Invisibleadrug

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Re: age difference [Re: wandrnshaman]
    #2989990 - 08/11/04 06:19 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Here's the problem with the argument, "It happens in other societies". From what I have gathered, this guy lives in America. Not some other country. He is going to be held to American standards. If he really wants to mess around with young girls without being looked down upon, then he can move to one of those countries. But as long as he is living in American society, he is going to be held to American standards.

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Offlinecastaway
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Re: age difference [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2990496 - 08/11/04 09:37 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

The prevalence of sexualy transmitted diseases encourages a humane decision that no sex takes place unless between consenting adults AWARE of the risks involved. but ironfast rules as to conduct otherwise does not take circumstances into consideration, which can result in more harm than good in my estimation.

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InvisibleDreaMaTrix
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Re: age difference [Re: castaway]
    #3003498 - 08/14/04 03:19 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Closed as per thread starter's request.


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