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Offlinewrong
Stranger
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 1,219
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
guns
    #2972723 - 08/06/04 06:32 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

"In 1999, 824 people died from firearm accidents, while the defensive use of guns saved approximately 400,000 lives, in most cases without even wounding the aggressor." - michael badnarik site
what exactly is meant by this statement and where has this estimate of 400000 lives per year saved by guns come from


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,389
Loc: USA
Re: guns [Re: wrong]
    #2972727 - 08/06/04 06:34 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

they smoke crack and come up with stats


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: guns [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2972749 - 08/06/04 06:41 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Sort of like you smoking crack to come up with asinine posts?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
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Re: guns [Re: wrong]
    #2972832 - 08/06/04 06:58 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Many incidents where guns are used defensively are not reported. If someone threatens and honest person with force, usually just pulling a gun will difuse the situation. In those cases, just showing a gun has prevented violence, robbery, murder and rape.

The stats probably come from John R. Lott Jr., who has done a great deal of research about guns, statistics, media bias and gun policy. A friend of mine just read his book, "The Bias Against Guns" and recommended it to me. It is on my to do list.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,234
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: guns [Re: Evolving]
    #2973159 - 08/06/04 08:27 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Sort of like you smoking crack to come up with asinine posts?



Crack is not required for him to do that.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
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Re: guns [Re: wrong]
    #2974278 - 08/07/04 02:24 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

where has this estimate of 400000 lives per year saved by guns come from




cos 400,000 is a really big number.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: guns [Re: wrong]
    #2974911 - 08/07/04 10:24 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Why do you post the question about where a web site gets it's figures on an unrelated web site where no one (presumably) had anything to do with creating the statements in question? The reasonable thing to do would be to direct your question to the web site you got the statement from. Do you come to The Shroomery and ask it's members where your girlfriend was last night instead of asking her?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
Re: guns [Re: Evolving]
    #2974948 - 08/07/04 10:56 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Where was his girlfriend last night? Are you holding out on us or something?


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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Anonymous

Re: guns [Re: wrong]
    #2981147 - 08/09/04 12:48 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

what exactly is meant by this statement and where has this estimate of 400000 lives per year saved by guns come from

i believe it comes from an article, "Lethal Police Response as a Crime Deterrent", from a 1991 issue of the american journal of economics and sociology.

that's actually one of the lowest numbers i've seen. there've been many studies, most of which have found that private citizens use firearms over a million times a year in self defense. the two most recent ones i know of put it at over 1.5 million. one lead by a criminologist at florida state university, found about 2,000,000 instances of defensive use per year. a year after that study, in 1994, the department of justice sponsored another survey and found 1.5 million defensive uses.

you can read the results of the dept. of justice study here:

http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles/165476.txt


Edited by mushmaster (08/09/04 02:07 PM)


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: guns [Re: ]
    #2982733 - 08/09/04 07:00 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Then why are murder rates in countries with strict gun control typically a hundredth or less of that figure, even adjusting for population?


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OfflineCyber
Ash
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Registered: 06/14/04
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Re: guns [Re: deafpanda]
    #2982786 - 08/09/04 07:19 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

deafpanda said:
Then why are murder rates in countries with strict gun control typically a hundredth or less of that figure, even adjusting for population?




I think you mis-understud the statement.

They are saying that 1.5 million times a year some one is assaulted, a robbery is attempted, etc. and the "Victom" pulls a gun. The site of it and thought that the he (the crook) could die is enough to scare him off and stop the aforementioned acts.

Thus they are not reported and/or counted as a use of a gun to detour crime.

For example (Real example): I am walking down the street in a major city. A young man approaches me and produces a knife and demands my money. I reach as if to get my wallet and instead of getting my wallet I pull my US Military Colt 45. Crook drops knife and runs! I put my gun back in it's holster and go on about my business. The cops do not get a "Report" of this incident because I do not want to call them and the perp is not going to go and say "I just tried to mug this guy and he pulled a gun on me!"
Thus with out a report no one know really knows what happend. Because of this the only gun use most people ever hear about is the ones where the criminal used them to rob some one.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: guns [Re: Cyber]
    #2982827 - 08/09/04 07:31 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

The wording was "400000 lives per year saved", not "400000 potentially life-threatening situations defused". My question still stands.


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Anonymous

Re: guns [Re: deafpanda]
    #2985399 - 08/10/04 12:03 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

The wording was "400000 lives per year saved", not "400000 potentially life-threatening situations defused". My question still stands.

believe it or not, there are other things which affect the violent crime rate than the availability of firearms. our total violent crime rate (not just crimes involving guns) is much higher than many western european countries. we've got some very serious problems in our inner cities that contribute to the violent crime problem. the availability of guns to law-abiding citizens is not one of them.

there are many countries in the world, particularly in eastern europe and latin america, with stricter gun control laws than the united states, yet far more violent crime.

here are some stats about the ones who are out there killing people with guns:

-81% of all homicide defendants have at least one arrest on their record.
-66% have two or more arrests.
-67% have at least one felony arrest.
-56% have two or more felony arrests.
-70% have at least one conviction.
-54% have at least one felony conviction.

US Dept. of Justice Bureau of Statistics

(note that it is already illegal for convicted felons to own guns). half the gun murders in this country are commited by convicted felons who aren't allowed to have guns in the first place.

keeping guns away from law-abiding citizens isn't going to help anything.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: guns [Re: ]
    #2985449 - 08/10/04 12:14 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not really up for debating gun laws, I don't know enough. I was just disputing that ridiculous statistic (400,000 lives saved per year thanks to guns).


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Anonymous

Re: guns [Re: deafpanda]
    #2985519 - 08/10/04 12:34 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I was just disputing that ridiculous statistic (400,000 lives saved per year thanks to guns).

studies have shown that people in the united states use guns in self defense 1.5 to 2 million times a year. if at least 20-25% of those cases involved people who would have been killed had they not defended themselves, which i think is fairly likely, the 400,000 would be true. i don't think it's a ridiculous statistic at all.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: guns [Re: ]
    #2985597 - 08/10/04 12:57 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Well then, like I said before, why are murder rates in other countries such a tiny fraction (~1%) of that figure?


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Anonymous

Re: guns [Re: deafpanda]
    #2985600 - 08/10/04 12:59 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)


Well then, like I said before, why are murder rates in other countries such a tiny fraction (~1%) of that figure?


which figure?


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: guns [Re: ]
    #2985614 - 08/10/04 01:06 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

400,000, the number of lives that apparently are saved by guns. Sorry, my question was a bit unclear.

My point is, if that number is true, then in a similar country to the US which doesn't allow its citizens to bear arms, surely the murder rate would be more than they currently are (as I said, typically less than 1% of 400,000)?


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: guns [Re: deafpanda]
    #2985650 - 08/10/04 01:22 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

My point is, if that number is true, then in a similar country to the US which doesn't allow its citizens to bear arms, surely the murder rate would be more than they currently are




You are comparing apples to oranges and asking why they don't taste the same. One cannot compare a country which allows guns with a similiar country that does not allow guns and expect there to be any valid similiarities between the two; there are too many other factors that influence violence beyond having or not having a gun.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: guns [Re: Seuss]
    #2985658 - 08/10/04 01:26 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

There are, yes, but surely not enough to make a difference of a factor of 100.


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