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 zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
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 Re: 40 minutes of down time.  [Re: Barbi]
#2978018 - 08/08/04 11:00 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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And Kerry's answer is .......what? Oh, I forgot, it's another one of his secret plans, along with his secret plans for Iraq, Iran, N. Korea, Israel/Palestine, health care, energy.
Do you think we should ban imports of all kinds or just the ones that you produce? The people who benefit are everyone who buys a product or service that is done cheaper overseas than it would be here. The only people who lose are those who can't compete.
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Barbi
Plastic Person
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Re: 40 minutes of down time. [Re: zappaisgod]
#2978026 - 08/08/04 11:03 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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You seem to mistake me for one of those typical bush bashing flamers. I dont give a rats ass which party is in office, or who is president as long as they meet my needs. So far bush has FAILED, so Im voting for the only viable option, kerry.
All of our choices thi year suck.
I also never said a damn thing about banning imports.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: 40 minutes of down time. [Re: Barbi]
#2978045 - 08/08/04 11:11 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
mndfreeze said:
Paying some other country to do american work obviously sends money OUT of our country, and into another. The only people who benefit, since there are no 'goods' coming back in, is the top execs of the company, and the indians who dont buy american products.
You sure seem to be complaining about imports here, whether goods or services.
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Barbi
Plastic Person
Registered: 04/22/02
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Re: 40 minutes of down time. [Re: zappaisgod]
#2978103 - 08/08/04 11:38 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm complaining about offshoring of jobs. The good portion was to cover the fact that its not just cheap labor used to build goods to come back into our country. i.e. just a step in the entire product life line from company to consumer.
The shit I am discussing is a one way ticket out of the US.
But now I'll try your tactics of debate.
Since you are obviously so pro bush, why dont you tell me WHY I should vote bush back in and what HE is doing that makes him deserve my vote.
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 Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: 40 minutes of down time. [Re: Barbi]
#2978123 - 08/08/04 11:44 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Do you want the government to cause the prices of goods and services to rise? Do you want the government to lower the disposable income of the average America via legislation and enforcement?
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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Barbi
Plastic Person
Registered: 04/22/02
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Re: 40 minutes of down time. [Re: Evolving]
#2978128 - 08/08/04 11:51 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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the rise of inflation is generally slow and steady compared to the immediate loss of income due to a poor or non existant job market.
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Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
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Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: 40 minutes of down time. [Re: Barbi]
#2978507 - 08/08/04 02:22 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm referring to the higher costs of goods brought on by tarrifs, and laws that would restrict employing of people in other countries. When GWB imposed a tarrif on imported steel, the rise in price of steel domestically available was immedate.
Do you want the government to cause the prices of goods and services to rise by eliminating corporations ability to hire people in foreign countries and putting or increasing tarrifs on imported goods? In other words, do you want the government to lower the disposable income of the average America via new legislation and it's enforcement? Will a lower disposable income have a net positive or negative effect on the average American?
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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Barbi
Plastic Person
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Re: 40 minutes of down time. [Re: Evolving]
#2978553 - 08/08/04 02:39 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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you are comparing something that is a basic building block and need, along with a product, to something that is just a service. I'm not familiar with the steel comparison you are making fully in order to compare them 100% side by side but in the IT field, prices have not gone down due to offshoring of support based jobs. In fact, prices are going UP while the companies costs are dropping drastically and costing americans jobs. Obviously there is no perfect solution beacuse I would hope if ther was, and we knew it, we would impliment it. However there needs to be a proper balance put in place to prevent our skilled people from being put out of work by less skilled, but CHEAP, outside labor.
The IT industry cannot be directly compared to a lower average skilled industry like manufacture, as this industry relies on highly skilled and educated people to do even the 'mcdonalds' IT jobs. So not only is it taking away jobs for us, but its costing us customer satisfaction due to poorly trained and educated people taking the jobs.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Posts: 81,741
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Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: 40 minutes of down time. [Re: Barbi]
#2978692 - 08/08/04 03:38 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
mndfreeze said:
The IT industry cannot be directly compared to a lower average skilled industry like manufacture, as this industry relies on highly skilled and educated people to do even the 'mcdonalds' IT jobs. So not only is it taking away jobs for us, but its costing us customer satisfaction due to poorly trained and educated people taking the jobs.
What a piece of arrogant, self-absorbed, disrespectful bullshit that was. Most manufacturing jobs are highly skilled and the people who do them work hard to improve their skilll. Just because you have no clue how to do something doesn't mean it can be done by monkeys. Manufacturing jobs are for the most part not for McDonalds cashiers. If anything you IT geniuses have screwed yourselves, because it clearly wasn't that difficult to train a monkey to do YOUR job. And your concern for the customer is also self-serving. You sound like the Detroit automakers in the 70's responding to Japanese cars. Problem was the Japanese cars were better made. Customers make decisions every day about whether to pay more for service or not. Face it, there are too many of you and you're nowhere near as important as you think. So many lemmings, so few cliffs.
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: 40 minutes of down time. [Re: Barbi]
#2979213 - 08/08/04 07:50 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
mndfreeze said:
as long as its to my benefit.
That pretty much sums up your entire argument right there.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Barbi
Plastic Person
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Re: 40 minutes of down time. [Re: zappaisgod]
#2979649 - 08/08/04 10:35 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
mndfreeze said:
The IT industry cannot be directly compared to a lower average skilled industry like manufacture, as this industry relies on highly skilled and educated people to do even the 'mcdonalds' IT jobs. So not only is it taking away jobs for us, but its costing us customer satisfaction due to poorly trained and educated people taking the jobs.
What a piece of arrogant, self-absorbed, disrespectful bullshit that was. Most manufacturing jobs are highly skilled and the people who do them work hard to improve their skilll. Just because you have no clue how to do something doesn't mean it can be done by monkeys. Manufacturing jobs are for the most part not for McDonalds cashiers. If anything you IT geniuses have screwed yourselves, because it clearly wasn't that difficult to train a monkey to do YOUR job. And your concern for the customer is also self-serving. You sound like the Detroit automakers in the 70's responding to Japanese cars. Problem was the Japanese cars were better made. Customers make decisions every day about whether to pay more for service or not. Face it, there are too many of you and you're nowhere near as important as you think. So many lemmings, so few cliffs.
YOu are the arrogant asshole here. I deal firsthand in a company that has US and india support. I interface with india technicians on an hourly basis if not more often and I can say 100% from EXPERIENCE something you seem to lack not being an "IT GENUIS" that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Making shoes for nike in a sweatshop, or having a machine build a car while you operate its 5 buttons, does not qualify as degree based, or highly technical ability. I never stated that EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN INDIA was a moron. I have dealt with a few that have EARNED their right to make it. You want to know where they go? THEY MOVE TO AMERICA. Thats right. Beacuse they can come here and get 50k a year, or stay in india and make 600 bucks a month, which in india is BANK, but who wants food poisoning every day?
The majority of the people who do technical shit in india are overall unskilled morons. They cram for a test, get a certification, and have NO CLUE how it really works. They dont use the net at home except in rare occurances, are not 'geeks' who are into it because its a hobby a well. They are trained monkeys who suck at their job. call dell sometime and TRY to get an american or even ANYONE who is NOT from india, who speaks in any sort of understandable language, and actually KNOWS how to fiux your problem.
Quite a few of my coworkers get sent to india every few months to try to train these people. They ome back with nothing but horror stories of the miserable say, living conditions, food poisoning, and general intelligence of the populace.
As for my 'self serving attitude' Your motherfucking 110% correct on that. I'm not here to serve for YOU, or for THEM, or for anyone else by myself and my family. I dont see anyone else going out of there way to make sure *I* get taken care of, so why the fuck should I care about some borderline 3rd world country stealing my jobs.
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Phred
Fred's son
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Re: 40 minutes of down time. [Re: Barbi]
#2979728 - 08/08/04 10:56 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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mndfreeze writes:
...why the fuck should I care about some borderline 3rd world country stealing my jobs.
There in a nutshell is your flawed take on the situation. The fact of the matter is that it is not your job, it's your employer's.
The company which employs support people has the right to choose their employees. Of course, as in all other things in life, there is a tradeoff between cost and effectiveness, which is why not everyone drives cars costing $80k -- for a lot of people a car costing a quarter that amount is effective enough for them. An employer faced with the option of paying $60k a year for a support tech or $20k a year would be a total fool not to at least investigate the feasibility of hiring the guy for 20k. If the guy can do the job adequately, the employer wins. If not, the employer loses.
Now, you may be correct that the $20k Indian techs are so incompetent the employer who hires them will end up losing customers and will thus sooner or later end up having to re-evaluate the wisdom of keeping them as employees. He may indeed end up firing the Indian techs and then consider filling his job vacancies with American support techs once again.
But that's his choice, not yours and not the government's.
pinky
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Barbi
Plastic Person
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Re: 40 minutes of down time. [Re: Phred]
#2979749 - 08/08/04 11:02 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well, thats where I disagree. If money keeps flowing out of our country and our economy goes to shit, then its the governments job to fix it. Its their job to take care of things like that so that I, a citizen, can live a nice prosperous life.
If that company wants to move to india, and not be a US based company, they hey, more power to em. But Im not a big fan of a company thats sits as a US company, abusing the system, and sending all of the money offshore.
You are correct that is is not 'my' jobs, its my employers. But again, its the governments job to maintain the health of our economy and its people.
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Phred
Fred's son
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Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: 40 minutes of down time. [Re: Barbi]
#2979792 - 08/08/04 11:18 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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mndfreeze writes:
Its their job to take care of things like that so that I, a citizen, can live a nice prosperous life.
Actually, it's not. The government's job is to protect you from those who would initiate force against you.
Let me ask you a hypothetical question. Suppose I got tired of living in the Dominican Republic and moved to your city (or town or village or wherever it is you live). What's the difference to your situation if the employer we were discussing above hired me at $20k a year rather than you at $60k a year or the Indian dude at $20k a year? Are you still left looking for a job or not?
pinky
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: 40 minutes of down time. [Re: Phred]
#2979822 - 08/08/04 11:28 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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There was a debate about this, namely because Walmart was giving jobs to illegal immigrants for less. (I didn't know it was possible for such a shitty paying job to give even less  ) The fact is, if Walmart has to pay the same to an illegal immigrant as to a normal citizen, any incentive to hire the illegal immigrant is lost
I don't know how we can possibly apply this to overseas jobs, or if it even should. The government shouldn't put their noses into private companies business as long as it's legal, but there also ceases to exist any reason to keep the jobs here when you can transfer them to India for a quarter of the price, and this would create havoc upon employment and the economy. I don't claim to know the answer to the problem either, perhaps a compromise between the two would be best
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Barbi
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Re: 40 minutes of down time. [Re: Phred]
#2979829 - 08/08/04 11:30 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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If you are a US citizen, I have absolutly no problems with you being hired for 20k a year. There is, last I remember, some laws that prevent large influx of immigration for jobs for non citizens, and those who ARE citizens deserve the right to compete with me for Us based jobs.
Those who are not US citizens, do not have such right IMO. They have a right to deal with their own government, and theur own economy and not suck mine drier then it already is.
The dot come explosion and crash already emptied the market like a proverbial cock. We dont need foreigners sucking a limp penis for every last cent.
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Phred
Fred's son
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Posts: 12,949
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Re: 40 minutes of down time. [Re: Barbi]
#2979879 - 08/08/04 11:50 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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mndfreeze qrites:
If you are a US citizen, I have absolutly no problems with you being hired for 20k a year.
How about a US resident with all the necessary government work permits?
It seems your stance is that if a company is headquartered in the US, it should be forcibly prevented by the US government from hiring anyone other than US residents as employees. Am I reading you correctly on this?
If I am, does this mean you feel the same way about foreign companies? For example, should Honda be allowed to open automobile construction plants in the US? Or should you (a US citizen) be allowed to work inside the US as a support rep for Siemens or Phillips or Sony or Panasonic or NCR?
pinky
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Barbi
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Re: 40 minutes of down time. [Re: Phred]
#2980500 - 08/09/04 04:16 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
pinksharkmark said:
mndfreeze qrites:
If you are a US citizen, I have absolutly no problems with you being hired for 20k a year.
How about a US resident with all the necessary government work permits?
It seems your stance is that if a company is headquartered in the US, it should be forcibly prevented by the US government from hiring anyone other than US residents as employees. Am I reading you correctly on this?
If I am, does this mean you feel the same way about foreign companies? For example, should Honda be allowed to open automobile construction plants in the US? Or should you (a US citizen) be allowed to work inside the US as a support rep for Siemens or Phillips or Sony or Panasonic or NCR?
pinky
On the first remark, no, I dont think every us company should *ONLY* be allowed to hire Us citizens. I feel there needs to be some control mechanisms put into place and enforced to prevent massive offshoring to occur, on a per field basis. Some industries dont get hurt as much by offshoring, and some get hurt a lot. An industry that is currently already in catastrophic state should be a high priority to fix and therefore be limited in the amount of offshoring occuring to prevent massive losses in US jobs.
Obviously as I stated before it would be a very complex issue to tackle EXACTLY, and would require quite a bit of research and general investigation as to which things fall into this catagory, and how to pull each one out as you cannot just blanket every US / offshored job. There ARE instances that offshoring DOES benefit the country, sometimes in the short run, sometimes in the long run. But the TECH market is in red and needs to be addressed with say a high priority then, say, agriculture..
Keep in mind this was just an example as I have no real data on agriculture and its offshoring costs to US jobs.. etc.
Also, some companies with the way they offshore, only offshore tiny fractions of their entire companies, compared to the tech industry which usually offshores near everything except their highest level devlopers, and the management.
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Barbi
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Re: 40 minutes of down time. [Re: Barbi]
#2980504 - 08/09/04 04:22 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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On the second part which I completely missed replying to...
My ideal goal here would be a low unemployment rate, and keeping US money INSIDE the US if possible. We are a consumer country and it seems we spend way more then we sell. Keep in mind I said 'seems' before you go bitching for me to back up supposed data. I am merely expressing my view on how I perceieve things to be after 6 long hard years of job insecurity and bankrupcies along with layoffs due to offshoring, then witness'ing it first hand in a company that specializes in it.
If honda wants to build a plant here, And creates 5000 jobs for americans. That would be GREAT. Those americans are going to spend the majority of their money here in the US. Obviously, honda, a non-us company is making a profit somehow and money is going out of country to them, but they pay US taxes (I hope, I'm not sure on big business how taxation works exactly) which goes into OUR government, etc.
I foresee it being benefical to let a company move HERE, hire our workers, pay our taxes, etc, a lot moe then them just NOT moving here at all, negating all of the above, or having OUR copmanies outsource to another country.
IMO any company that is just 'headquartered' here, but overall generates the 'US' consisting of the people, the government, etc, any revenue, then they are all but useless.
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