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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: DoctorJ]
#2970098 - 08/05/04 09:31 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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DoctorJ writes:
My father is a self-proffessed libertarian...
A lot of people are self-professed something or other. Hell, John F Kerry is a self-professed war criminal.
You will note my carefully-phrased statement --
"Those who vote Libertarian are people who have decided to throw out the government."
I didn't say those who claim to be Libertarians are people who have decided to throw out the government. I said those who vote Libertarian are. Clearly your father, though enamored of Libertarian ideals, is not yet prepared to attempt to throw out the existing government system by voting against its representatives -- in this case Bush and Kerry. There are many on this board who feel as he does. Their argument is that it is better to keep Kerry out of the White House (an admirable goal, to be sure) than to vote for a Libertarian presidential candidate this time.
As you are well aware, I disagree. But those who feel (for example) that a strong policy against the Jihadists is a top priority (and even I must concede that Libertarian freedoms are kinda hard to enjoy once you've been blown up by a pocket nuke or even a truck bomb) judge it's better to stick with a president who has demonstrated he is on their side on this particular point.
Priorities, I guess.
pinky
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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: Phred]
#2970164 - 08/05/04 10:03 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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so, in a libertarian style government, what is to keep people like my father from voting in crooked politicians to act in their interest by slowly changing the government to be more coericive?
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: DoctorJ]
#2970174 - 08/05/04 10:08 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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People may vote as they wish. A libertarian society would put limits on the politicians, not the voters.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: DoctorJ]
#2970297 - 08/05/04 10:49 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
DoctorJ said: so, in a libertarian style government, what is to keep people like my father from voting in crooked politicians to act in their interest by slowly changing the government to be more coericive?
The problem with all governments is that they are subject to crooked politicians and spineless people who will accept their edicts, even though they may be unconstitutional and/or wrong. That is why our government exists in it's present state. A vast number of things the National government does are blatantly unconstitutional. Can you tell us of anyway to keep a government within it's bounds via a constitution or some other means? Seeing as anarchy opens a people up to the first group of thugs willing to establish a new government... short of anarchy, how do we eliminate and/or minimize the accumulation of power that can be corrupted?
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: DoctorJ]
#2970688 - 08/06/04 12:29 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
DoctorJ said: hmmmm... My father is a self-proffessed libertarian, but he's voting for Bush
Up is down, left is right, war is peace, freedom is slavery...
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Because my father has money in oil (most of which was originally invested a loooooong time ago), and he is confident in GW's ability to keep the price of oil high.
Not to offend you, but I would tell my father that he is a hypocrite (I have told my own father such things, that might be why I haven't spoken to him in 8 years). War is the biggest racket of the government and the actions most inimical to liberty are taken in the name of warfare (such as the Patriot Act). GW is keeping the price of oil high with tax money, debt and debt created currency (a tax on every dollar in circulation) going to fund the war machine and to foment unrest and uncertainty in the middle east. I don't know if this would provide any intellectual ammunition for you, but have you read,'War is a Racket'? Is it just that your father's profit should come at the expense of future tax revenue, from people who do not yet have the right to vote?
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Now, i try to tell him that voting for these reasons isnt very libertarian, because he is using the coercive mechanism of the state for his own personal gain. His defense is that voting isnt an initiation of force against anyone.
You are of course, correct and your father is wrong. The act of voting is no more an initiation of force than the act of handing a wad of bills to a hit man to carry out a contract, you are authorizing someone to initiate force on your behalf. You're father is rationalizing his actions. I don't know if you care to or have already read the following, but... 'Is Voting an Act of Violence?' an interesting little essay. 'On the Duty of Civil Disobedience' - Henry David Thoreau
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: DoctorJ]
#2972785 - 08/06/04 04:49 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Doctor J asks "What is to keep people like my father from voting in crooked politicians to act in their interest....?" They're not crooked if they act the way they said they would when your father voted for them. You may not like them and they may betray your father's trust, but if they do what he voted for them to do then they are not crooked (at the very least to him, he may have decided that it is in his interest for them to plunder a hospital trust fund but they have not betrayed him if they do).
You say that your father has alot of money in oil and that he has had it for a loooong time. I'm going to guess that means he has stock in oil co.s and that he is not a speculator. Did he really say he was voting for GWB because he knew he would keep oil prices high? Did Bush have his good friend Putin arrest the head of YUKOS to raise prices? Did his policies so stabilize the equities and interest markets that speculators, i.e. hedge and pension funds, jump into the energy futures markets desperate for action (at great peril, I might add). Did his almighty CIA disrupt the leftist government in Venezuela and endanger that source to create a shortage of production there or did the people just get sick of Chavez's hideous policies? (The CIA is either all powerful or incompetent. Please pick one.) Did his supposed great influence with the Saudi ruling family (his great friends, see Michael Moore)lead them to cut production to raise prices? They have actually increased production a great deal, put wells online ahead of schedule and not closed others.
Oil co.s make money whether the price of oil is up or down, depending on what position they have taken. Sometimes they don't make more with the price high. The price of oil co. stock is more based on public perception than on the price of oil. I also think it is imperative that people vote for what they see to be their interest, whatever it might be. They can be as misguided, in my unhumble opinion, as they want but they should vote for their interests and not what they think other people's interests should be. Unless they want to, of course.
I myself did not talk to your father and I would not ever judge anyone to be anything at all based on any report you made.
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Twirling
Barred Spiral


Registered: 02/03/03
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: Twirling]
#2975510 - 08/07/04 01:45 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Good responses. I've figured they're both aware of their statisical unlikelyness of winning, it's just hard to know what answers (if there are any) are going to be in order to influence the system. Certianly making a stand is a good way of gathering awareness of these types of issues.
What I'd really like to see is better representation in the media of what's actually going on. Clearly all those news talk shows who try to act all "controversial" are more to influence people to feel opinionated and emotionally charged. Most of the analysis on the most major media programs are a joke. Which is why I love the Daily Show, it manages to not only entertain, but their journalism actually rips apart most of the poltical B.S.
I really don't know what to make of Kerry. I like a lot of things he's had to say and what I've seen of his public record. His voting for the War In Iraq & Patriot Act are really unsettling though.
I'm in NY, so I'd wager it's going to Kerry. I still don't know what I'm going to do.
-------------------- The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.
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deafpanda
Stranger
Registered: 05/07/04
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: Twirling]
#2975553 - 08/07/04 01:57 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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How much does being president actually mean, though?
I will not believe for one second that Bush makes any *real* decisions. No-one that stupid would be really in charge of America.
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: Twirling]
#2975581 - 08/07/04 02:05 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I really don't know what to make of Kerry. I like a lot of things he's had to say and what I've seen of his public record. His voting for the War In Iraq & Patriot Act are really unsettling though.
I'm in NY, so I'd wager it's going to Kerry. I still don't know what I'm going to do.
That'd be a safe wager. Perhaps the only politically good thing about New York is that the lesser of two evils argument does not apply. The Democrats are going to win by a fairly insane margine. With that said, I'd definitely suggest looking into voting for a third party. I'm not sure of your politics but voting for Kerry is telling the DNC that you approve of the things you listed, the war in Iraq and the Patriot Act, and that you'd like some more of it. Vote third party and send a message.
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Which is why I love the Daily Show, it manages to not only entertain, but their journalism actually rips apart most of the poltical B.S.
Couldn't agree with you more.
-------------------- ?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.? -Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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Twirling
Barred Spiral


Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 2,468
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: Ancalagon]
#2975609 - 08/07/04 02:11 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ancalagon said: I'm in NY, so I'd wager it's going to Kerry. I still don't know what I'm going to do.
That'd be a safe wager. Perhaps the only politically good thing about New York is that the lesser of two evils argument does not apply. The Democrats are going to win by a fairly insane margine. With that said, I'd definitely suggest looking into voting for a third party. I'm not sure of your politics but voting for Kerry is telling the DNC that you approve of the things you listed, the war in Iraq and the Patriot Act, and that you'd like some more of it. Vote third party and send a message..
I lean most towards the Green Party and Nader's platform, so it's a possibilty, but I'd like to wait and see before making any decision.
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