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OfflineTwirling
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Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters
    #2968685 - 08/05/04 05:40 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Let's keep this as respectful & an open discussion as possible.


I really like a lot of what Nader has to say, like some of Badnarik represents (athough haven't read enough about him to support him entirely) but from a practical and realistic standpoint, neither one stands much of a chance against Bush or Kerry. I do understand that it's a very valid point the two party system has too much corparate influence and relies on the "long shot" arguement to keep a third party from being a serouis contender. My biggest concern is that, in a realistic sense, this election just doesn't seem to

I personally feel the third party should concentrate more on grass roots attempts, like the Green Party Mayor of New Paltz, a town near me. I think they'd have more success in rallying people to vote for them by focusing on Senate & House positions where there is more of a chance for an underdog. In this election, I think people are just too afriad to chance their vote for a 3rd party canadate who, statistically doesn't have much of any chance.

So the biggest question I have, is how do either Nader or Badnarik plan on winning this election? You can answer any of the other points I'm making here, but please answer this one.


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The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.



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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: Twirling]
    #2968696 - 08/05/04 05:43 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

to be fair to the libertarian viewpoint:

just yesterday I was having an insane fantasy about what it would be like if Badnarik were allowed in the televised debates along with Bush and Kerry.  He would rip both of them new assholes. 

too bad it will never happen :frown:


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2968815 - 08/05/04 06:02 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I defintely think it's unfair that third party canadates aren't allowed into the debates. It would be out of hand if every minor canadate would be allowed, but how open can an election be if only two partys are in control.


Which is probably the point....


--------------------
The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.



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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: Twirling]
    #2968862 - 08/05/04 06:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Both Nader and Badnarik are intelligent enough to know they're not going to come close to winning this election. Or 2008, or 2012, or 2100 for that matter. But I think they want to do the right thing (which is exactly what their doing) and go out there and take small little steps towards some third party acceptance. It's going to be a long long time before America has truely open elections and isn't run by two sides of the same corrupted coin. So the message for now should be do what's right for your children and grandchildren... and maybe your great great great grandchildren will live to see some real democracy.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: Twirling]
    #2968971 - 08/05/04 06:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

It's obvious they're not going to win, they know that I'm sure. But as Michael Badnarik said, If you were in prison and had a 50% chance of lethal injection, a 45% chance of going to the electric chair, and only a 5% chance of escape, which are you going to choose?

Kerry and Bush are honestly not good choices, they won't help the country at all and we're mainly just trying to choose which one is less evil. Is that a good way to vote for the most powerful man in the world?

That said, I hope the 2008 election is between Dennis Kucinich for Democratic canidate and John McCain for Republican canidate. There would be no losing in that election. Too bad it won't happen


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: Twirling]
    #2968980 - 08/05/04 06:37 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

It's not about winning. It's about sending a message. Now, if I lived in a swing state, I'd be more concerned with toppling Bush. But since I'm in a solidly Democratic state, I can send a message to Washington by voting for Michael Badnarik and still be comfortable in knowing that I haven't helped Bush.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: silversoul7]
    #2968993 - 08/05/04 06:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I can send a message to Washington




you think they're listening? :lol:


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2969000 - 08/05/04 06:43 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Maybe not. But I bet they'd be more likely to listen if I was armed to the teeth.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: silversoul7]
    #2969022 - 08/05/04 06:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

  :blah:

I risk my life every day fighting government oppression.  you're gonna vote libertarian  :handth:


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: silversoul7]
    #2969074 - 08/05/04 07:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

influenced by the loud mouthed libretarians on this board...poor ss7, just because badarnick (sp?) wants to legalize weed it doenst make him good...libretatian fiscal policies would ensure that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer....the class divide would be larger than ever...then you'd see revolution....but maybe we need a good revolt, VOTE LIBERTARIAN


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Anonymous

Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: Twirling]
    #2969320 - 08/05/04 08:21 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

So the biggest question I have, is how do either Nader or Badnarik plan on winning this election? You can answer any of the other points I'm making here, but please answer this one.

i'll be voting for a candidate i support. i won't be voting for one i won't. if i had to choose between either bush, kerry, or not vote at all, i wouldn't vote.


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Anonymous

Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2969338 - 08/05/04 08:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

just because badarnick (sp?) wants to legalize weed it doenst make him good...

i'm sure that ss7 understands the multitude of other very good reasons to vote libertarian.

libretatian fiscal policies would ensure that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer...

well, you're half right.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2969346 - 08/05/04 08:27 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

so what does nader or the other guy have to say about our monetary system???

read if you dare to know truth


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2969359 - 08/05/04 08:31 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

KingOftheThing said:
libretatian fiscal policies would ensure that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer....the class divide would be larger than ever...



I can understand in a true free market economy that the rich can get richer, likewise, the poor can also get richer. A quick examination of more free market economies will demonstrate more economic upward mobility than in those countries that are more socialistic or outright communistic. Your statement is unsupported by a comparison of economies that function within different political boundaries. In fact, more government controls (such as occupational licensing, high permit costs, and government regulations) inhibit the creation of wealth for those starting out with less, and protect those who are already established from new competition.

Please note that in a true free market there is no corporate welfare, purchasers are not penalized because products have a certain point of origin, there is no crony capitalism with those in government positions, there is no market promotion of established industries by the government, and there in no funding by the government of favored industries' research at the expense of the taxpayers. A free market is not a marriage of big business and government. What are often derided by the left as the evils of capitalism are in fact actions of corporatism or mercantilism - not a free market.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: Evolving]
    #2969616 - 08/05/04 09:43 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Please note that in a true free market there is no corporate welfare, purchasers are not penalized because products have a certain point of origin, there is no crony capitalism with those in government positions, there is no market promotion of established industries by the government, and there in no funding by the government of favored industries' research at the expense of the taxpayers




what mechanism of libertarian government will keep these things from happening naturally?


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2969635 - 08/05/04 09:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The fact that the government is specifically excluded from doing any of those things.

pinky


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2969646 - 08/05/04 09:49 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

It requires a mechanism to make them happen. No mechanism at all is required to prevent them


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: Phred]
    #2969650 - 08/05/04 09:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Truck drivers are specifically excluded from handing over their cargo to organized criminals. But slip a few hundred dollar bills in a friendly truck driver's pocket, and he'll let you rob him, and tell his superiors it was a gang of heavily armed men and there was nothing he could do.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2969659 - 08/05/04 09:52 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

No mechanism at all is required to prevent them





on this we disagree. I think corruption is part of human nature, no matter what kind of government (or lack thereof) exists.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Question To The Nader/Badnarik Supporters [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2969719 - 08/05/04 10:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

DoctorJ writes:

Truck drivers are specifically excluded from handing over their cargo to organized criminals. But slip a few hundred dollar bills in a friendly truck driver's pocket, and he'll let you rob him, and tell his superiors it was a gang of heavily armed men and there was nothing he could do.

Please explain to us how this is an example of any of the following:

-- corporate welfare
-- the penalization of purchasers of products with a certain point of origin
-- crony capitalism with those in government positions
-- market promotion of established industries by the government
-- funding by the government of favored industries' research at the expense of the taxpayer

I confess I am too stupid to see the relevance of your example to any of Evolving's points. Can you dumb it down for me... connect the dots?.

pinky


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