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RandalFlagg
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How I would end Muslim hatred towards America
#2964818 - 08/04/04 02:33 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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There is little doubt that America faces great risk from Muslim extremists who want to kill us. Here is how I would win the "war on terror".
1. Defuse their anger.
a. Stop all aid to Israel. The Arabs and the Israelis hate each other and probably always will. It is absolutely none of America's business what goes on between Israel and its neighbours. When we give Israel money and weapons, we get absolutely nothing in return, and we gain the hatred of a billion Muslims around the world. It is not strategic or intelligent to give Israel aid. And, on top of that, they are so much more powerful than their Arab neighbors that they are more than capable of defending themselves. b. Pull out all American military personel from Saudi Arabia. Having American troops in the kingdom that houses the holiest sites of Islam pisses off Muslims.
c. Stop all aid to oppressive Middle Eastern governments that are unpopular with their own populations(Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Jordan). All of these governments are undemocratic and despised by their respective civilian populations. d. Stop all covert meddling in Middle Eastern affairs. For years America has stuck its nose where it didn't belong. For example, look at how we propped up the Iranian Shah for years.
e. Stay in Iraq, but make an explicit promise that we have no interest in setting up a compliant or outright puppet regime. Our only interest is to establish a stable democracy in that country. And, our actions would attest to that.
Once the activities that make Muslims angry were stopped, I would consider all further terrorist actions by Muslims to be "breaking the truce". If that happens I think that America should take a zero tolerance stance towards the terrorists in question.
2. No mercy or tolerance for terrorism
a. Use torture. If someone has information about an attack, American lives are at risk, and normal interrogation does not yield information, I think no mercy should be shown. Gouge out their eyes, cut their fingers off, burn their skin, and put their legs into wood chippers. This sounds extreme and it is. The only way to fight savages(these people love killing innocent civilians and chopping off their heads) is to be brutal yourself.
b. Anytime an attack against Americans occurs, the suspects should be rounded up, tortured, and killed. The videos should then be given to the Arab news media to show what happens to people who do engage in terrorism.
I have a feeling that I will get a lot of hate mail for these suggestions. Let the flaming begin!
Randalflagg
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ld50negative1
lethal dosage

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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
#2964822 - 08/04/04 02:34 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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genocide.
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Innvertigo
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
#2964901 - 08/04/04 02:55 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I like it but would also stop ALL aid to middle eastern countries. Why stop funding to Isreal and NOT these other countries. We get absolutly nothing in return from the hundreds of millions of dollars we give them now.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Ravus
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
#2964920 - 08/04/04 03:01 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I agree with number 1, at least. That's a good start, stop the hatred at the source by stopping the actions that create the majority of terrorists in the first place, then send spies and secret forces in to execute the rest of them. Torture is a bit extreme, I'd look more into truth drugs combined with electroshock, raising the power every time, or something else that doesn't physically harm them, so we don't look like barbarians that stoop down to their level. It may not, in reality, be any better painwise, and may actually be worse, but in the end we could send them off to trial physically intact and look all the better for it
Of course that is only for extreme circumstances, such as if there was an imminent terrorist attack
"Anytime an attack against Americans occurs, the suspects should be rounded up, tortured, and killed. The videos should then be given to the Arab news media to show what happens to people who do engage in terrorism."
We're trying to stop terrorism, not create more. Don't stoop down to the terrorists' level, this would look even worse than the beheadings they've been doing, especially combined with the currently anti-American media in the middle east
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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downforpot
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Innvertigo]
#2964930 - 08/04/04 03:04 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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First of all we should stop giving aid to Israel when the Gaza pullout is complete. When the wall is complete and there is no more attacks on Israelis or Palestinians then aid should be stopped. I do however agree that we should stop giving aid to all Muslim countries except Afghanistan and Iraq. Then when Iraq and Afghanistan is back on their feet then we should stop giving aid.
Second of all we should not aid videos of torture. These activities should be kept secret.
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http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again"
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trendal
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Innvertigo]
#2965003 - 08/04/04 03:26 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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We get absolutly nothing in return from the hundreds of millions of dollars we give them now.
Except oil
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Innvertigo
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: trendal]
#2965026 - 08/04/04 03:35 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Which we pay for..unfortunatly.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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silversoul7
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
#2965063 - 08/04/04 03:52 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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While I do agree that harsh measures should be taken against terrorists, I don't quite agree with the degree to which you advocate this in #2. While I realize that they have no qualms about resorting to such tactics themselves, I feel we should hold ourselves to a somewhat higher standard.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Xlea321
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
#2965135 - 08/04/04 04:22 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Stay in Iraq, but make an explicit promise
I don't think Bush is too believable.
Think the studies show the most effective way of stopping terrorism is education. Instead of pissing away 200 billion invading places, spend 200 billion improving education, providing clean water, good sanitation, medicines for everyday muslims. For terrorists to operate they need at least tacit help and support from the population of the country they're in. Without that support, they wither and die. Education and genuine help are going to destroy terrorism. Calling them "evildoers" and playing the tough guy only makes it worse.
out their eyes, cut their fingers off, burn their skin,
Be fine if it worked. Unfortunately most of the time people just say anything to make you stop. The germans success rate using extreme torture was lousy.
Anytime an attack against Americans occurs
Nah, that's just going to create more and more terrorists. Look at it from your angle. If the Brits had strung americans up by the ankles during the war of independence do you think you'dve felt "Lets all behave ourselves"?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Evolving
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Xlea321]
#2965161 - 08/04/04 04:36 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex123 said: Think the studies show the most effective way of stopping terrorism is education.
What studies? Seems to conflict with what this guy has found out... "Terrorism expert Marc Sageman made waves at an international conference in Washington last week, when he presented his findings on 382 suspected terrorists who have direct or indirect links to Osama bin Laden's network..." "Sageman found that, for all the simplistic claims made recently about poverty breeding terrorism, a majority of his al-Qaeda sample were middle or upper class and well-educated. Of his sample of 382, he had information on the social status of 306; he found that 17.6 per cent were upper class, 54.9 per cent middle class, and 27.5 per cent lower class. The highest number of upper- or middle-class individuals was among the Core Arabs (from Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Yemen and Kuwait)..." "... the level of education reached for 264 of his subjects - 16.7 per cent were educated to a level less than high school; 12.1 per cent had at least a high school education; 28.8 per cent had some college education; 33.3 per cent had a college degree; and nine per cent had a postgraduate degree. Even more surprising are Sageman's findings on what type of education these individuals received. Of 265 of his subjects, only 9.4 per cent had a religious education, and 90.6 per cent had a secular education. Among the Central Staff (bin Laden and co), fewer than five individuals had a religious education; among the Maghreb Arabs, none had a religious education."
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Xlea321
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
#2965177 - 08/04/04 04:42 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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There is little doubt that America faces great risk Not sure about this either Randall. I think there's an enormous doubt whether America faces "great risk". In the last 3 years with Bin Laden at the height of his fame after 9/11 how many muslim attacks have there been on the american homeland? He can't even convince one crazy-ass muslim to plant a bag of burning dogshit on an americans doorstep and ring the bell. One attack in 3 years isn't what I'd call a great risk.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Divided_Sky
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
#2965189 - 08/04/04 04:45 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said: There is little doubt that America faces great risk from Muslim extremists who want to kill us. Here is how I would win the "war on terror".
1. Defuse their anger.
a. Stop all aid to Israel. The Arabs and the Israelis hate each other and probably always will. It is absolutely none of America's business what goes on between Israel and its neighbours. When we give Israel money and weapons, we get absolutely nothing in return, and we gain the hatred of a billion Muslims around the world. It is not strategic or intelligent to give Israel aid. And, on top of that, they are so much more powerful than their Arab neighbors that they are more than capable of defending themselves. b. Pull out all American military personel from Saudi Arabia. Having American troops in the kingdom that houses the holiest sites of Islam pisses off Muslims.
c. Stop all aid to oppressive Middle Eastern governments that are unpopular with their own populations(Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Jordan). All of these governments are undemocratic and despised by their respective civilian populations. d. Stop all covert meddling in Middle Eastern affairs. For years America has stuck its nose where it didn't belong. For example, look at how we propped up the Iranian Shah for years.
e. Stay in Iraq, but make an explicit promise that we have no interest in setting up a compliant or outright puppet regime. Our only interest is to establish a stable democracy in that country. And, our actions would attest to that.
Once the activities that make Muslims angry were stopped, I would consider all further terrorist actions by Muslims to be "breaking the truce". If that happens I think that America should take a zero tolerance stance towards the terrorists in question.
2. No mercy or tolerance for terrorism
a. Use torture. If someone has information about an attack, American lives are at risk, and normal interrogation does not yield information, I think no mercy should be shown. Gouge out their eyes, cut their fingers off, burn their skin, and put their legs into wood chippers. This sounds extreme and it is. The only way to fight savages(these people love killing innocent civilians and chopping off their heads) is to be brutal yourself.
b. Anytime an attack against Americans occurs, the suspects should be rounded up, tortured, and killed. The videos should then be given to the Arab news media to show what happens to people who do engage in terrorism.
I have a feeling that I will get a lot of hate mail for these suggestions. Let the flaming begin!
Randalflagg
First: America gets about 80% of all its intelligence in the Middle East from Israel. Second, many Americans have families in Israel and abandoning them to Arabs who want to drive them into the sea is not a valid option. Israel is the only democracy in the middle east, the only free state, with a free press, and equal protection for all citizens. Turning our back on the only outpost of democracy in the region is ridiculous. It also sends a completely wrong signal by leaving Israel open to terrorism. It is complete hypocrisy to stop backing Israel in the face of terrorism if the US wants to avoid terrorism itself.
Second: Stopping aid to the Saudis would likely raise gas prices substantialy, and stopping aide to moderate Arab state like Egypt and Jordan would undermine the war on terrorism and make them weak to extremists. And stopping aid to all Arab governments that are unpopular with their people, that would be all of them, except ironically Iraq.
Pulling troops out of Saudi Arabia is not a bad idea except that like your option "a" caves into the demands of terrorists, and b puts the US at a strategic disadvantage in being able to defend Iraq from foreign terrorists. Your point 'e' is already being worked on.
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Xlea321
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Divided_Sky]
#2965195 - 08/04/04 04:48 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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abandoning them to Arabs who want to drive them into the sea is not a valid option.
Arabs who don't have nuclear bombs will drive Isreal into the sea?
It is complete hypocrisy to stop backing Israel in the face of terrorism if the US wants to avoid terrorism itself.
You don't consider Israel might be guilty of a little terrorism itself?
And the US has backed Isreal for decades - terrorism is getting worse, not better. Clearly the policy isn't working.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Divided_Sky
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Xlea321]
#2965285 - 08/04/04 05:13 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex123 said:
Arabs who don't have nuclear bombs will drive Isreal into the sea?
Arabs don't nuke cities, they blow up buses and launch rockets into neighborhoods. Isreal is no longer up against conventional armies whose governments give a shit about nukes, they are up against terrorists and guerillas who account to no-one. Most of them come from the Palestinian territories, only miles away from Israeli cities. Nukes are not an option.
Quote:
You don't consider Israel might be guilty of a little terrorism itself?
No. I don't.
Quote:
And the US has backed Isreal for decades - terrorism is getting worse, not better. Clearly the policy isn't working.
At least Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are not trying to invade them anymore. As for terrorism, it is not getting worse. There have been terrorists killing Israelis since the fifties and in the last year terrorism has been on the down slide. Why terrorism increased in the last couple decades however, is because it works. The Palestinians got a seat at the UN General Assembly and massive sympathy and support through terrorism. Yassir Arafat has the Nobel Peace Prize. The only reason it has declined in recent months is Israel's security fence and the Palestinians being worn down by reprisals.
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Annapurna1
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
#2965339 - 08/04/04 05:40 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
There is little doubt that America faces great risk from Muslim extremists who want to kill us. Here is how I would win the "war on terror".
america faces a much greater risk from christian extremists like bush and ashcroft..let alone the rest of the neocon junta..then it does from any muslim extremists...and as michael moore pointed out..the neocons have no interest nor incentive in actually winning the war...here is how i would win the "war on terror" ..start by getting rid of the fucking neocons...
Edited by Annapurna1 (08/05/04 10:34 AM)
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RandalFlagg
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Xlea321]
#2967359 - 08/05/04 09:58 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Think the studies show the most effective way of stopping terrorism is education. Instead of pissing away 200 billion invading places, spend 200 billion improving education, providing clean water, good sanitation, medicines for everyday muslims.
I understand your point, but as Evolving mentioned, a lot of terrorists are well-off and well-educated. For example, the FBI is looking for a terrorist linked M.I.T. educated Arab woman in this country right now(M.I.T. is one of the most prestigous universities in America).
Conditions are bad in some Arab countries. Poverty can breed anger, and the oppressive Arab governments are adept at criticizing the U.S. through their state run presses in order to deflect anger away from their own putrid governments.
out their eyes, cut their fingers off, burn their skin,
Be fine if it worked. Unfortunately most of the time people just say anything to make you stop. The germans success rate using extreme torture was lousy.
Maybe...maybe not. Torture would act as a deterrent. If some terrorist financier knew that he would be thrown into a cage with a hungry lion...it might cause him to reconsider his actions.
Anytime an attack against Americans occurs
Nah, that's just going to create more and more terrorists. Look at it from your angle. If the Brits had strung americans up by the ankles during the war of independence do you think you'dve felt "Lets all behave ourselves"?
Fear is one of the few things that seem to be granted universal notice and respect in the Middle East. It is how Saddam(and many other Arab rulers) managed to hold onto power for so many years.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Xlea321]
#2967388 - 08/05/04 10:10 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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There is little doubt that America faces great risk
Not sure about this either Randall. I think there's an enormous doubt whether America faces "great risk".
If Americans don't face much risk, why were two mosque leaders in Albany, New York arrested this morning on charges of trying to purchase surface to air missiles used to shoot down aircraft? Have you forgotten the bombing of the USS Cole? The first World Trade Center bombing? The beheadings of Americans? I would say that these actions show that extreme Muslims want to kill us. That seems to be very threatening to me.
In the last 3 years with Bin Laden at the height of his fame after 9/11 how many muslim attacks have there been on the american homeland? He can't even convince one crazy-ass muslim to plant a bag of burning dogshit on an americans doorstep and ring the bell. One attack in 3 years isn't what I'd call a great risk.
We are just lucky that the homeland hasn't been hit again. Read Al-Qaeda's "fatwa" sometime. It explicitly says that Americans are the enemy and they should be killed wherever they are. The fact that these people are willing to kill themselves to kill us shows me that they are fanatical and dangerous.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Divided_Sky]
#2967445 - 08/05/04 10:31 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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First: America gets about 80% of all its intelligence in the Middle East from Israel.
We wouldn't need all of that intelligence if we weren't meddling about in the affairs of others.
Second, many Americans have families in Israel and abandoning them to Arabs who want to drive them into the sea is not a valid option.
Israel could destroy all of the Arab countries at once with its hand tied behind its back. With or without our aid.
Israel is the only democracy in the middle east, the only free state, with a free press, and equal protection for all citizens.
True.
Turning our back on the only outpost of democracy in the region is ridiculous.
We wouldn't be turning our backs on them. We would be stopping aid that they don't need in the first place. Does it make strategic sense to endear ourselves to six million people, all the while earning the hatred of a billion people?
It also sends a completely wrong signal by leaving Israel open to terrorism. It is complete hypocrisy to stop backing Israel in the face of terrorism if the US wants to avoid terrorism itself.
The Middle East is a mess. It has been for a long time, and it will probably be that way for a long time. The Arabs will ALWAYS hate Israel, because they feel that its birth as a nation was illegal. There will always be animosity in regards to that. Why should Americans put ourselves in the middle by taking sides in such a bitter conflict?
Second: Stopping aid to the Saudis would likely raise gas prices substantialy,
If the U.S. government didn't spend so much money, it wouldn't need to tax its citizens so much. Half of the money a person spends for a gallon of gas in America is for taxes. Also, I would rather pay a little more for gas if it meant that the U.S. was not involved in the Middle East quagmire. If not being involved in the Middle East means that the U.S. price for gasoline goes up to $3 a gallon, then so be it.
and stopping aide to moderate Arab state like Egypt and Jordan would undermine the war on terrorism and make them weak to extremists.
I don't give a shit what happens in Egypt or Jordan. I don't give a shit if the Jews and the Arabs kill each other. It is not the U.S.'s business.
And stopping aid to all Arab governments that are unpopular with their people, that would be all of them, except ironically Iraq.
Exactly.. They shouldn't be getting any of our money.
Pulling troops out of Saudi Arabia is not a bad idea except that like your option "a" caves into the demands of terrorists
I don't consider it caving. I consider it a legitimate reason as to why the terrorists are mad with us(don't mistake me for a terrorist sympathizer however). Such a simple move could cause a lot of anger to abate. That is in our strategic interest.
and b puts the US at a strategic disadvantage in being able to defend Iraq from foreign terrorists.
The troops we have in Iraq can defend Iraq from foreign terrorists. And, do you think that the Saudi government would ever allow U.S. forces to operate on its soil to "stop terrorists"? The Saudi public would be outraged and would probably overthrow the Saudi monarchy.
Your point 'e' is already being worked on.
And I hope to God it works out.
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Ancalagon
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
#2967463 - 08/05/04 10:36 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Great post!
-------------------- ?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.? -Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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RandalFlagg
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Annapurna1]
#2967474 - 08/05/04 10:39 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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america faces a much greater risk from christian extremists like bush and ashcroft..
Do you see Christian extremists trying to kill massive amounts of American civilians? When was the last time that a Christian extremist mass murder plot was uncovered? When was the last time that a Christian extremist killed an American? Extremist Muslims have REPEATEDLY attacked America. They were attacking us way before Bush and Ashcroft. The first World Trade Center bombing and the African embassy bombings occurred under Clinton for example. They are very blunt when stating their goals. They want to kill Americans, and they do so ruthlessly and savagely. If that is not a big threat.....then I don't know what is.
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silversoul7
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
#2967493 - 08/05/04 10:43 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Do you see Christian extremists trying to kill massive amounts of American civilians?
No, they'd rather kill massive numbers of foreign Arabs. Christian extremists are the reason why your plan would never get off the ground.
--------------------
  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Annapurna1
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
#2967601 - 08/05/04 11:18 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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>> Do you see Christian extremists trying to kill massive amounts of American civilians?
the answer is a resounding YES...its not their stated intention..but they have already killed >1000 american troops with their reckless military adventures in the mideast...add 3000 more american civilians if the conspiracists are correct..and they really were complicit in 9/11...while oil is the principle motivation in the mideast..shrubs' fundamentalism is no doubt playin a secondary role...shrub himself even called his aggressionist mideast policy a "crusade"...
>> When was the last time that a Christian extremist mass murder plot was uncovered?
its called the PATRIOT act...revoking the freedoms of americans will inevitably lead to the loss of american lives...maybe their doing so because of their religious fundamentalism.. or maybe not..but definitely not out of concern for our safety...
>> They are very blunt when stating their goals. They want to kill Americans, and they do so ruthlessly and savagely.
at least they call it "killing"...bush calls it "liberating"...
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RandalFlagg
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Annapurna1]
#2967683 - 08/05/04 11:46 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Do you see Christian extremists trying to kill massive amounts of American civilians?
the answer is a resounding YES...its not their stated intention..but they have already killed >1000 american troops with their reckless military adventures in the mideast
This reckless military adventure you speak of was entered into during the past year or so. Muslim extremists have made efforts to kill Americans for many many years. And they are determined enough that they tend to get some successes in their efforts.
...add 3000 more american civilians if the conspiracists are correct..and they really were complicit in 9/11...
Left-wing conspiracy theory garbage. Show me proof...REAL proof from a reputable and unbiased source. Given those standards... people like Micheal Moore and Noam Chomsky don't count.
When was the last time that a Christian extremist mass murder plot was uncovered?
its called the PATRIOT act...revoking the freedoms of americans will inevitably lead to the loss of american lives
Huh? How can the passage of a law, that was enacted because of a perceived threat, compare to the intentional killings of innocent civilians?
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psilomonkey
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
#2968043 - 08/05/04 01:24 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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a) Stopping aid to Israel would result in its destruction. Their economy can not sustain itself without aid, and their advanced American arsenal need parts and supplies than only America can supply.
Consider how Jews all over the world would react. Seems likely to me you would just have recruited a whole new terrorist problem, we distributed, well connected and financed. Israel should be brought into line, at least be made to uphold the promises it has made to your president. Only America can do this, aid is a good lever, the UN veto is another.
b) Geopolitics. America (and the rest of the world) needs oil. Its does not have to, America has the land, resources and technology to lead the world out of this carbon age madness.
c) see b.
d) see b.
e) will see how it goes.
I can never agree with torture and collective punishment, I am very glad the Nazis were defeated.
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Xlea321
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
#2970700 - 08/06/04 12:38 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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a lot of terrorists are well-off and well-educated
By education I mean among the general population. There's always gonna be a handful of highly educated terrorists - it's operating in countries where the vast bulk of people arn't supportive that's the problem. If America had spent 200 billion on your education and given you clean drinking water instead of spending it dropping bombs on your family and invading your country, my guess is you'd be a little less willing to turn a blind eye to someone attacking them.
Fear is one of the few things that seem to be granted universal
You have a point but on the other hand I think Israel is pretty well feared by the Palestinians and it hasn't stopped the terrorism.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Xlea321
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
#2970738 - 08/06/04 12:53 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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If Americans don't face much risk, why were two mosque leaders inAlbany, New York arrested this morning on charges of trying to purchase surface to air missiles used to shoot down aircraft?
Sure, there's some degree of risk but I come from England where we had the IRA operating for 20 years and they were an outfit who were at least competent enough to get arms without being caught. Even with regular bombings on the mainland I don't think most people would have said they felt at great risk from the IRA. A bomb blew up half a mile down the road from where I was living at the time. I still never felt at great risk. I'm sure there are just as many white guys like Tim Mcveigh trying to get access to weapons too. Do you feel at great risk from them too?
The beheadings of Americans?
But that's 3000 miles away in a country the US has just invaded. I'd agree with you that Americans are at great risk in Iraq..but surely that's what goes hand in hand with invading places?
Al-Qaeda's "fatwa" sometime. It explicitly says that Americans
I suppose it's how seriously you want to take these people tho. I'm sure black guys could read any number of white supremacist tracts saying "Armageddon is coming and we will be at the forefront of the war against the blacks". Then you see the guy who wrote it and it's a 50 year old guy called Earle working at the gas station who last did a push-up 5 years ago.
I'm not saying there isn't some kind of risk, I'm just questioning whether it's a great risk. Not one muslim has killed himself launching a suicide attack in the US since 2001. We've just blown fuck out of Afghanistan and Iraq - if you can't get a muslim to attack somewhere in America now it's not looking very good for Bin Laden. I'dve been expecting attacks in american cities on a monthly basis if there was such a big threat and al-qaeda were such bad-asses.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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HagbardCeline
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Xlea321]
#2970783 - 08/06/04 01:13 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Who the hell are you and what have you done with Alex! 
I've never seen you so lucid. I still disagree with some of what you said, but I think this is the first time I've seen you be so reasonable. Are you on drugs? 
I need to get to bed so I'll just say one quick thing. First, we don't know how many plans have been thwarted. There have been several arrests that were under suspicious circumstances that we never heard another thing about.
The reason I believe the risk is so great though, is because many of these people are not only willing to die themselves for their cause, but want to kill as many as possible along with them. The threat from a NBC weapons are so extreme, it only takes one time. We know they are resolute in doing this and have stated many times they want nothing less than our complete annhilation. Our economy is also very susceptable to an attack.
They don't seem to want to waste their time or resources in small scale operations like sniping and the like. They are looking for the big show.
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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deafpanda
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
#2971012 - 08/06/04 04:42 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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People really should get some perspective on terrorism. More people were killed in terrorist attacks in 1998 than they were in 2001.
About 6000 people die every year from terrorism worldwide. Over 20000 were murdered in 2001 in the US alone.
Obviously you will never please all of the extremists all of the time. There will always be terrorism of some sort. America's arrogant foreign policy just worsens the situation.
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Xlea321
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: HagbardCeline]
#2971159 - 08/06/04 07:44 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Who the hell are you and what have you done with Alex! He's locked in the basement I've never seen you so lucid. I still disagree with some of what you said, but I think this is the first time I've seen you be so reasonable. Are you on drugs? Yeah but it's the first time I've encountered a right-winger like Randall on the board. You can discuss things without him launching personal attacks like a pissy 5 year old if you disagree. I've got time for him. The reason I believe the risk is so great though, is because many of these people are not only willing to die themselves for their cause, but want to kill as many as possible along with them. Sure, but I'd be expecting to have seen a few suicide bus-bombings in America at the very least in the last 3 years. Not one attack in 3 years while America has rampaged around the world killing thousands of muslims isn't my idea of a terrible threat.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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RandalFlagg
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: psilomonkey]
#2971745 - 08/06/04 11:25 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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a) Stopping aid to Israel would result in its destruction. Their economy can not sustain itself without aid, and their advanced American arsenal need parts and supplies than only America can supply.
Even if that is true, I don't think it is America's problem. Given Israel's nuclear capability and other advanced weaponry, I think they could easily defend themselves.
Consider how Jews all over the world would react. Seems likely to me you would just have recruited a whole new terrorist problem, we distributed, well connected and financed.
Again, that is not America's problem. I think it would be greedy (I am not trying to be anti-semitic by saying that) of them to get mad at us for giving them billions of dollars over the years and then stopping because they are capable of defending themselves now.
Israel should be brought into line, at least be made to uphold the promises it has made to your president. Only America can do this, aid is a good lever, the UN veto is another.
I think it was hypocritical of the U.S. government to demand that Iraq obey U.N. resolutions to disarm, but then make no demand for Israel to obey U.N. resolutions about the land they occupy.
b) Geopolitics. America (and the rest of the world) needs oil. Its does not have to, America has the land, resources and technology to lead the world out of this carbon age madness.
I wish we didn't have to rely on oil either, but for now I am afraid we have to. Until somebody comes up with a reasonable substitute for the internal combustion engine, we will need oil. Also, think of the severe economic consequences if the oil industry were to disappear overnight. Millions would be put out of work and an enormous amount(hundreds of billions of dollars...if not trillions) of equipment owned by Americans would become obsolete and valueless.
The Middle East has a lot of the oil in this world. Oil is the only form of wealth most Middle Eastern countries have. It is all they have to sell to engage in the world economy. It is in their best interests that the oil keep flowing, because if it didn't their countries would be broke. So, because of that I surmise that no matter what the political situation in the Middle East is, the Arabs will always find a way to get oil to the market.
However, I do have fears that if hardline Islamic governments take control of the entire Middle East and band together, they will have great wealth. They can then use this great wealth in an attempt to spread their ideology by force...much like the Communists tried to do.
I can never agree with torture and collective punishment, I am very glad the Nazis were defeated.
I understand that opinion, but I am of the opinion that it is the only way to deal with savages.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Xlea321]
#2971782 - 08/06/04 11:37 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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a lot of terrorists are well-off and well-educated
By education I mean among the general population. There's always gonna be a handful of highly educated terrorists - it's operating in countries where the vast bulk of people arn't supportive that's the problem.
If America had spent 200 billion on your education and given you clean drinking water instead of spending it dropping bombs on your family and invading your country
The Muslims don't hate us because of lack of education or health services. They hate us because we give Israel money and weapons and we meddle in the Middle East. Therefore giving them a bunch of money would not solve the problem. It would be tantamount to a bribe, and they would still hate us. We would be throwing our money away.
Fear is one of the few things that seem to be granted universal
You have a point but on the other hand I think Israel is pretty well feared by the Palestinians and it hasn't stopped the terrorism.
Israel doesn't horrifically torture its prisoners. They beat them up and destroy their family's homes. If Israel engaged in tactics similar to what the Muslims do against them, the Muslims would be filled with much more fear.
Also, Israel is inexorably involved in a conflict. America is not....we have the ability to withdraw from this. The Muslims will always fight Israel as long as it exists...no matter what the consequences. The Muslims will fight America as long as we support Israel. We are a secondary target in the grand scheme of things.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Xlea321]
#2971820 - 08/06/04 11:46 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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If Americans don't face much risk, why were two mosque leaders inAlbany, New York arrested this morning on charges of trying to purchase surface to air missiles used to shoot down aircraft?
Sure, there's some degree of risk
A(n IRA) bomb blew up half a mile down the road from where I was living at the time. I still never felt at great risk.
I suppose it's how seriously you want to take these people(Muslims extremists) tho. I'm sure black guys could read any number of white supremacist tracts saying "Armageddon is coming and we will be at the forefront of the war against the blacks".
I'm not saying there isn't some kind of risk, I'm just questioning whether it's a great risk. Not one muslim has killed himself launching a suicide attack in the US since 2001.
I'dve been expecting attacks in american cities on a monthly basis if there was such a big threat and al-qaeda were such bad-asses.
Given how sophisticated and deadly the September 11 attacks were, the proliferation of radiocative materials, Muslim sentiment around the world, and Muslim extremist's organization and determination, I fear greatly that America will be hit again by a catastrophic attack.
I'm sure there are just as many white guys like Tim Mcveigh trying to get access to weapons too. Do you feel at great risk from them too?
They are not as numerous, well-funded, and determined as Muslim extremists are.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: deafpanda]
#2971838 - 08/06/04 11:51 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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People really should get some perspective on terrorism. More people were killed in terrorist attacks in 1998 than they were in 2001.
Maybe in other parts of the world, but not in America, which is where I am concerned about.
About 6000 people die every year from terrorism worldwide. Over 20000 were murdered in 2001 in the US alone.
True, it is much more likely that you will be killed by a fellow American than by a terrorist. However, given the scale of the September 11 attacks, it is obvious that Muslim extremists are interested in inflicting massive casualties. This is cause for concern.
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HagbardCeline
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Xlea321]
#2974255 - 08/07/04 12:14 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah but it's the first time I've encountered a right-winger like Randall on the board. You can discuss things without him launching personal attacks like a pissy 5 year old if you disagree. I've got time for him.
Fine, just don't make it something regular. I enjoy seeing you finagle you way out of confrontation.
And for the record, I'm pissy at a 7 year old's level. At least.
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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Zahid
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
#2974760 - 08/07/04 05:49 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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It has always been Christian fundamentalism that has stirred emotions in the Middle East. From the Crusades, to the Clash of Cultures of today that revolve around Palestine and Israel. People seem to forget that for a good 600 years the Muslims had the most power in the world, and the caliphs during that Age had little interest to persue gain outside the Muslim world. For the most part, for centuries Muslims have been minding their own business, having their way of life peacefully until unpopular modernization programs spearheaded by the Western World began to colonize the Islamic world, reducing a once healthy empire to a bunch of poor mini-states. It's Christian fundamentalism that has backed the support of Israel ever since the Zionist movement began to take fold and up until today - Christian fundamentalists, who believe Israel must exist at any cost because its existence is entwined with the second coming of Christ. I.e, Jesus is coming any day now, Israel must prevail! And of course, with the pre-emptive military invasions on the part of the Republican Party, the unofficial 'Party of God' in the West. The Iraq invasion was backed by Christian fundamentalists from every wing of the globe. Here in Canada the leading voice in scolding liberal Canadians for not supporting our southern neighbor is Christian columnist Michael Coren, a Protestant extremist who was suspended briefly by the Sun Media for calling Mel Gibson's Passion a 'Roman Catholic Blood Cult' while he accused the Roman Catholic church of being as deep seated in Anti Semitism as Islam (which caused the bigger uproar). Coren is the leading voice of Christian gun nuts in Canada, where the fundamentalist Right wing is becoming a loud minority and shaming the majority of Canadians for being 'liberal' in the face of Bush's War of Terror has also worked. Some might see it as a clash of cultures, and it is in a sense; as currently it's not Islam and Christianity that's clashing, it's fundamentalist movements on both sides that are clashing. The vast majority of Christians and Muslims simply wish to live their lives in peace where they can raise their families in peace. However, in the West fundamentalists are active in Conservative politics where policy is almost always enforced with the influence of religion, and in the East, where Muslim fundamentalists remain socially active against the West and Israel - and a very few, decide to travel abroad to the shady countries with an al-Qaeda presence to join the on-going struggle to right the perceived wrongs that have been done to Muslims. Frankly, the only sane voices in this conflict is the American left wing (among other left wings, heh), and the Moderate Muslim majority who simply identify with the fitnah of their sect (Sunni and Shia) and do not adhere to the far Right Wing of Islam, Salafism (known as Wahabism to non-Muslims). Salafis are one of the smallest groups of Muslims in the Islamic world, and every last suicide terrorist attack is also carried out by a Salafi. Bin Laden is a Salafi, the 9/11 19 were Salafis, the radical clerics in Britain that are constantly praising terrorist attacks are Salafis (and are often forced to preach in the street because they're too fanatic) the Taliban was Salafist, and the Muslims that are resisting the occupation in Iraq are also Salafi. The only thing outside Sunnism that may resemble the Salafi movement is 'Tehranian' Shia, which is theocratically strict as opposed to the fascist ideologies of Salafis. Even a non-violent Salafi is a slap in the face to any thinking individual, as they have a reputation among other Muslims in the mosque for being arrogant, only saying Salaam to Muslims with beards, and generally regarding all non-Salafi Muslims as un-saved for not holding strong to the Sunnah of the Prophet. Christian fundamentalists give moderate Muslims crap all the time for terrorist acts committed by a minority within their faith that considers the moderate Muslims themselves to be unsaved anyway. And this frankly, since the 'War on Terror' has begun, has only pushed moderate Muslims into Salafi Muslims; all over the world. It's somewhat not a surprise, as even I get fed up at some rude non-Muslims who always ask me pretentious questions that imply that me and all other Muslims are partly responsible for the political madness of a few Muslims out of the woodwork - but there's a middle ground, since I refute them by making them guilty for the crusades in a sarcastic manner that gives the obvious impression that I dislike xenophobia and generalizations. Dude, trust me: It's going to be Western and Muslim intellectuals who win this war.
Edited by Zahid (08/07/04 06:18 AM)
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deafpanda
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Zahid]
#2974766 - 08/07/04 06:02 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Mmm. Separating church and state properly would be nice.
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Zahid
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: deafpanda]
#2974784 - 08/07/04 06:13 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yes, it would.
But with the Republican Party in the states, and the conservative parties all over the West, how do think that can ever be accomplished?
Eventually - when humans mature ever so more, Social Conservative movements are going to be a thing of the past as complete secular rule is the only logical solution as it is becoming apparent today that Conservative policy has done nothing but shovel crap back in the face of the West.
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: deafpanda]
#2974814 - 08/07/04 06:51 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
deafpanda said: Mmm. Separating church and state properly would be nice.
While I would have no problem with a constitutionally mandated separation, you must surely realize the constitution makes no such statement?
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
All it says is the government shall not start or stop religion.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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deafpanda
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#2974822 - 08/07/04 07:02 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm not American...I couldn't tell you anything about the constitution. It may not advocate this separation, but common sense does.
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: deafpanda]
#2974827 - 08/07/04 07:05 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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If you re-read my post a little slower you'll see I think it should as well.
The point is that the oft quoted separation does not exist in the constitution no matter how many claim it does.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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deafpanda
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#2974842 - 08/07/04 07:18 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Fair enough :-)
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RandalFlagg
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Zahid]
#2974944 - 08/07/04 08:50 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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God....what a mess. It is such a mess that debating it makes me discouraged. It seems as if a solution will never be found.
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silversoul7
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Zahid]
#2975096 - 08/07/04 10:35 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
It's Christian fundamentalism that has backed the support of Israel ever since the Zionist movement began to take fold and up until today - Christian fundamentalists, who believe Israel must exist at any cost because its existence is entwined with the second coming of Christ. I.e, Jesus is coming any day now, Israel must prevail!
I guess they must not have enough faith in God to maintain Israel's existence without massive foreign aid.
--------------------
  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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HagbardCeline
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Zahid]
#2975338 - 08/07/04 12:52 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
It has always been Christian fundamentalism that has stirred emotions in the Middle East. From the Crusades, to the Clash of Cultures of today that revolve around Palestine and Israel. People seem to forget that for a good 600 years the Muslims had the most power in the world, and the caliphs during that Age had little interest to persue gain outside the Muslim world. For the most part, for centuries Muslims have been minding their own business, having their way of life peacefully until unpopular modernization programs spearheaded by the Western World began to colonize the Islamic world, reducing a once healthy empire to a bunch of poor mini-states.
Please tell me your not trying to say that the Crusades were some unprovoked attack by Christians to go after peaceful Muslims who had just been minding their own business.
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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Zahid
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: HagbardCeline]
#2976474 - 08/07/04 07:32 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
HagbardCeline said: Please tell me your not trying to say that the Crusades were some unprovoked attack by Christians to go after peaceful Muslims who had just been minding their own business.
They were - which is why the Crusades are so emberassing to the West. There's an old saying of a Catholic soldier who asked, "What about the Arab Christians" the blunt response from his superior, 'Kill them all and let God sort them out!' This was the general attitude towards the Muslim people who had control of Jerusalem at the time. The Muslim War hero of the Crusades, Saladin, actually helped Richard the Lion Heart become a more compassionate being when Saladin displayed little interest to be harsh towards the Crusaders, his only objective to drive the Christians out of Jerusalem so that the Muslim and Christian Arabs living there could live in peace. The Crusades was a breaking point in history - where the Christians finally met the Muslims, the new monotheists whose Prophet claimed Jesus was none other than a man like himself. The Crusaders saw the Muslims as followers of an Anti-Christ, Muhammad, who had control of the Holy Land which was a major insult to Pope Urban and the Catholic Church. They tried to take Jerusalem, Saladin responded with a campaign of pressure, and eventually the Catholic Crusaders left Jerusalem after a short invasion as they couldn't hold such a city so far away. The lesson of the Crusades was that they were barbaric and benighted - the moment Richard the Lionheart captured Jerusalem there was a heavy feeling of "Now what?!" floating in the air. The Crusades were the ultimate example of religious doctrine used to justify transgression - the way the Crusaders used the Gospels to justify their wars is to Muslim extremists today who use selective interpretations of verses from the Qur'an to justify armed jihad.
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Zahid
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: silversoul7]
#2976504 - 08/07/04 07:47 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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The thing is, Conservative politicians who actively support Israel feel that they are doing God's work - a Holy struggle - to make sure Israel exists at all costs. The ironic part, and tragedy of this conflict is that fundamentalists on both sides believe Jesus is going to come down from Heaven and help them out. The Christian literalists believe Jesus will return, convert all the Jews and whoever else finally believes to Christianity, and then battle the Anti-Christ in the Holy Land and the enemies that threaten God's people. Likewise, the Muslim literalists believe Jesus will descend from Heaven, convert the Jews and Christians to Islam, and then Battle the Dajjal - the Anti Christ, where he will battle Jesus with the help of an army of Jews who still believe the Messiah hasn't come yet. It's a soup alright.
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Zahid
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#2976524 - 08/07/04 08:00 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:
deafpanda said: Mmm. Separating church and state properly would be nice.
While I would have no problem with a constitutionally mandated separation, you must surely realize the constitution makes no such statement?
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
All it says is the government shall not start or stop religion.
That was a step in the right direction. Today though, as the Western and Muslim worlds exchange black eyes for the first time since Urbanhood, the constitution ought to move foward (in fashion) in a move to completely make the United States a secular country. I.e., the Repuplican Party should be forced to reform (or it should be forced to shut down, while a new party reforms) itself under the supreme court so that religion no longer influences its policies under the guise of social conservativism - i.e., Abortion, Gay Rights, Stem Cell Research, and of course military support for Israel, which got us at this point in the first place. No religion whatsoever can exist in government, not under the guise of Conservativism or other special interests about non-issues that are made into issues because of the religious beliefs of politicians.
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Ancalagon
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Zahid]
#2976534 - 08/07/04 08:03 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
That was a step in the right direction. Today though, as the Western and Muslim worlds exchange black eyes for the first time since Urbanhood, the constitution ought to move foward (in fashion) in a move to completely make the United States a secular country. I.e., the Repuplican Party should be forced to reform (or it should be forced to shut down, while a new party reforms) itself under the supreme court so that religion no longer influences its policies under the guise of social conservativism - i.e., Abortion, Gay Rights, Stem Cell Research, and of course military support for Israel, which got us at this point in the first place. No religion whatsoever can exist in government, not under the guise of Conservativism or other special interests about non-issues that are made into issues because of the religious beliefs of politicians.
Bleh. You had me up until the boldness(mine) began. The GOP is not a public organization(though it does take a fuckload of public money...very impressive 'conservatives') and therefore government should not even think about disbanding it.
-------------------- ?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.? -Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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Zahid
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Ancalagon]
#2976564 - 08/07/04 08:17 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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It ought to. I believe as humans evolve, religion is going to become less and less objective, and today it starts with secularism. When religion is finally rooted out of politics, as the Right wing fades deeper into history as nothing more than religious fascism, only then will actual security be ensured as our policies would no longer be clashing with theology. I dream of a day when elections will be between two different leftists, whether they believe in God or not, religion will only be a subjective medicine, not one that is used and abused for gain both foreign and domestically. I think it was Mark Twain who said that the radical Lefist of today is tomorrow's Conservative. The idea is that like humans, politics are evolving with us. Eventually there will be a breaking point when Conservative political parties will be forced to reform to adapt to secular times, or they will be disbanded. Unless, Americans want the GOP to 'rebuild America and defense' (newspeak for 'Let's Empire it up a bit! Go Jesus!'), in that case, enjoy your new friend Al-Qaeda. Religious fanatics can play together if they want. Sooner or later the South will become like today's North.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Zahid]
#2976571 - 08/07/04 08:24 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think you may be mistaking Twain's, or whoever's, intent. I think the intent of the quote is in line with this, "if you're not a liberal when you're young you have no heart, if your not a conservative when you grow up you have no brain." I think he was making the point that people change, not so much society.
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Zahid
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Registered: 01/21/02
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: zappaisgod]
#2976581 - 08/07/04 08:29 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Maybe. I always see the quote as an example of evolution and change. John F. Kennedy for example (or any Democratic politician from a long time ago), if he had the same policies as he did during his life time and were alive today, he would be a Republican. My general point is that only good things come from change and the evolution of things. As we evolve, we will realize that religious influence in government (as history has proven) creates more problems than it solves.
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