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Offlinedeafpanda
Stranger
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 984
Loc: Inguland
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2974842 - 08/07/04 07:18 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Fair enough :-)

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Zahid]
    #2974944 - 08/07/04 08:50 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

God....what a mess. It is such a mess that debating it makes me
discouraged. It seems as if a solution will never be found.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Zahid]
    #2975096 - 08/07/04 10:35 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

It's Christian fundamentalism that has backed the support of Israel ever since the Zionist movement began to take fold and up until today - Christian fundamentalists, who believe Israel must exist at any cost because its existence is entwined with the second coming of Christ. I.e, Jesus is coming any day now, Israel must prevail!



I guess they must not have enough faith in God to maintain Israel's existence without massive foreign aid.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineHagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 10,028
Loc: Overjoyed, at the bottom ...
Last seen: 20 days, 6 hours
Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Zahid]
    #2975338 - 08/07/04 12:52 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


It has always been Christian fundamentalism that has stirred emotions in the Middle East. From the Crusades, to the Clash of Cultures of today that revolve around Palestine and Israel. People seem to forget that for a good 600 years the Muslims had the most power in the world, and the caliphs during that Age had little interest to persue gain outside the Muslim world. For the most part, for centuries Muslims have been minding their own business, having their way of life peacefully until unpopular modernization programs spearheaded by the Western World began to colonize the Islamic world, reducing a once healthy empire to a bunch of poor mini-states.




Please tell me your not trying to say that the Crusades were some unprovoked attack by Christians to go after peaceful Muslims who had just been minding their own business.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2976474 - 08/07/04 07:32 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

HagbardCeline said:
Please tell me your not trying to say that the Crusades were some unprovoked attack by Christians to go after peaceful Muslims who had just been minding their own business.




They were - which is why the Crusades are so emberassing to the West. There's an old saying of a Catholic soldier who asked, "What about the Arab Christians" the blunt response from his superior, 'Kill them all and let God sort them out!' This was the general attitude towards the Muslim people who had control of Jerusalem at the time. The Muslim War hero of the Crusades, Saladin, actually helped Richard the Lion Heart become a more compassionate being when Saladin displayed little interest to be harsh towards the Crusaders, his only objective to drive the Christians out of Jerusalem so that the Muslim and Christian Arabs living there could live in peace. The Crusades was a breaking point in history - where the Christians finally met the Muslims, the new monotheists whose Prophet claimed Jesus was none other than a man like himself. The Crusaders saw the Muslims as followers of an Anti-Christ, Muhammad, who had control of the Holy Land which was a major insult to Pope Urban and the Catholic Church. They tried to take Jerusalem, Saladin responded with a campaign of pressure, and eventually the Catholic Crusaders left Jerusalem after a short invasion as they couldn't hold such a city so far away. The lesson of the Crusades was that they were barbaric and benighted - the moment Richard the Lionheart captured Jerusalem there was a heavy feeling of "Now what?!" floating in the air. The Crusades were the ultimate example of religious doctrine used to justify transgression - the way the Crusaders used the Gospels to justify their wars is to Muslim extremists today who use selective interpretations of verses from the Qur'an to justify armed jihad.


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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: silversoul7]
    #2976504 - 08/07/04 07:47 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

The thing is, Conservative politicians who actively support Israel feel that they are doing God's work - a Holy struggle - to make sure Israel exists at all costs. The ironic part, and tragedy of this conflict is that fundamentalists on both sides believe Jesus is going to come down from Heaven and help them out. The Christian literalists believe Jesus will return, convert all the Jews and whoever else finally believes to Christianity, and then battle the Anti-Christ in the Holy Land and the enemies that threaten God's people. Likewise, the Muslim literalists believe Jesus will descend from Heaven, convert the Jews and Christians to Islam, and then Battle the Dajjal - the Anti Christ, where he will battle Jesus with the help of an army of Jews who still believe the Messiah hasn't come yet.

It's a soup alright.


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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2976524 - 08/07/04 08:00 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

deafpanda said:
Mmm. Separating church and state properly would be nice.



While I would have no problem with a constitutionally mandated separation, you must surely realize the constitution makes no such statement?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

All it says is the government shall not start or stop religion.




That was a step in the right direction. Today though, as the Western and Muslim worlds exchange black eyes for the first time since Urbanhood, the constitution ought to move foward (in fashion) in a move to completely make the United States a secular country. I.e., the Repuplican Party should be forced to reform (or it should be forced to shut down, while a new party reforms) itself under the supreme court so that religion no longer influences its policies under the guise of social conservativism - i.e., Abortion, Gay Rights, Stem Cell Research, and of course military support for Israel, which got us at this point in the first place. No religion whatsoever can exist in government, not under the guise of Conservativism or other special interests about non-issues that are made into issues because of the religious beliefs of politicians.


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Zahid]
    #2976534 - 08/07/04 08:03 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

That was a step in the right direction. Today though, as the Western and Muslim worlds exchange black eyes for the first time since Urbanhood, the constitution ought to move foward (in fashion) in a move to completely make the United States a secular country. I.e., the Repuplican Party should be forced to reform (or it should be forced to shut down, while a new party reforms) itself under the supreme court so that religion no longer influences its policies under the guise of social conservativism - i.e., Abortion, Gay Rights, Stem Cell Research, and of course military support for Israel, which got us at this point in the first place. No religion whatsoever can exist in government, not under the guise of Conservativism or other special interests about non-issues that are made into issues because of the religious beliefs of politicians.



Bleh. You had me up until the boldness(mine) began. The GOP is not a public organization(though it does take a fuckload of public money...very impressive 'conservatives') and therefore government should not even think about disbanding it.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2976564 - 08/07/04 08:17 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

It ought to. I believe as humans evolve, religion is going to become less and less objective, and today it starts with secularism. When religion is finally rooted out of politics, as the Right wing fades deeper into history as nothing more than religious fascism, only then will actual security be ensured as our policies would no longer be clashing with theology.

I dream of a day when elections will be between two different leftists, whether they believe in God or not, religion will only be a subjective medicine, not one that is used and abused for gain both foreign and domestically. I think it was Mark Twain who said that the radical Lefist of today is tomorrow's Conservative. The idea is that like humans, politics are evolving with us. Eventually there will be a breaking point when Conservative political parties will be forced to reform to adapt to secular times, or they will be disbanded.

Unless, Americans want the GOP to 'rebuild America and defense' (newspeak for 'Let's Empire it up a bit! Go Jesus!'), in that case, enjoy your new friend Al-Qaeda. Religious fanatics can play together if they want.

Sooner or later the South will become like today's North.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Zahid]
    #2976571 - 08/07/04 08:24 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I think you may be mistaking Twain's, or whoever's, intent. I think the intent of the quote is in line with this, "if you're not a liberal when you're young you have no heart, if your not a conservative when you grow up you have no brain." I think he was making the point that people change, not so much society.


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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2976581 - 08/07/04 08:29 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Maybe. I always see the quote as an example of evolution and change. John F. Kennedy for example (or any Democratic politician from a long time ago), if he had the same policies as he did during his life time and were alive today, he would be a Republican. My general point is that only good things come from change and the evolution of things. As we evolve, we will realize that religious influence in government (as history has proven) creates more problems than it solves.


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