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silversoul7
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
#2967493 - 08/05/04 10:43 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Do you see Christian extremists trying to kill massive amounts of American civilians?
No, they'd rather kill massive numbers of foreign Arabs. Christian extremists are the reason why your plan would never get off the ground.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Annapurna1
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
#2967601 - 08/05/04 11:18 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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>> Do you see Christian extremists trying to kill massive amounts of American civilians?
the answer is a resounding YES...its not their stated intention..but they have already killed >1000 american troops with their reckless military adventures in the mideast...add 3000 more american civilians if the conspiracists are correct..and they really were complicit in 9/11...while oil is the principle motivation in the mideast..shrubs' fundamentalism is no doubt playin a secondary role...shrub himself even called his aggressionist mideast policy a "crusade"...
>> When was the last time that a Christian extremist mass murder plot was uncovered?
its called the PATRIOT act...revoking the freedoms of americans will inevitably lead to the loss of american lives...maybe their doing so because of their religious fundamentalism.. or maybe not..but definitely not out of concern for our safety...
>> They are very blunt when stating their goals. They want to kill Americans, and they do so ruthlessly and savagely.
at least they call it "killing"...bush calls it "liberating"...
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RandalFlagg
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Annapurna1]
#2967683 - 08/05/04 11:46 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Do you see Christian extremists trying to kill massive amounts of American civilians?
the answer is a resounding YES...its not their stated intention..but they have already killed >1000 american troops with their reckless military adventures in the mideast
This reckless military adventure you speak of was entered into during the past year or so. Muslim extremists have made efforts to kill Americans for many many years. And they are determined enough that they tend to get some successes in their efforts.
...add 3000 more american civilians if the conspiracists are correct..and they really were complicit in 9/11...
Left-wing conspiracy theory garbage. Show me proof...REAL proof from a reputable and unbiased source. Given those standards... people like Micheal Moore and Noam Chomsky don't count.
When was the last time that a Christian extremist mass murder plot was uncovered?
its called the PATRIOT act...revoking the freedoms of americans will inevitably lead to the loss of american lives
Huh? How can the passage of a law, that was enacted because of a perceived threat, compare to the intentional killings of innocent civilians?
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psilomonkey
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
#2968043 - 08/05/04 01:24 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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a) Stopping aid to Israel would result in its destruction. Their economy can not sustain itself without aid, and their advanced American arsenal need parts and supplies than only America can supply.
Consider how Jews all over the world would react. Seems likely to me you would just have recruited a whole new terrorist problem, we distributed, well connected and financed. Israel should be brought into line, at least be made to uphold the promises it has made to your president. Only America can do this, aid is a good lever, the UN veto is another.
b) Geopolitics. America (and the rest of the world) needs oil. Its does not have to, America has the land, resources and technology to lead the world out of this carbon age madness.
c) see b.
d) see b.
e) will see how it goes.
I can never agree with torture and collective punishment, I am very glad the Nazis were defeated.
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Xlea321
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
#2970700 - 08/06/04 12:38 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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a lot of terrorists are well-off and well-educated
By education I mean among the general population. There's always gonna be a handful of highly educated terrorists - it's operating in countries where the vast bulk of people arn't supportive that's the problem. If America had spent 200 billion on your education and given you clean drinking water instead of spending it dropping bombs on your family and invading your country, my guess is you'd be a little less willing to turn a blind eye to someone attacking them.
Fear is one of the few things that seem to be granted universal
You have a point but on the other hand I think Israel is pretty well feared by the Palestinians and it hasn't stopped the terrorism.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Xlea321
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
#2970738 - 08/06/04 12:53 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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If Americans don't face much risk, why were two mosque leaders inAlbany, New York arrested this morning on charges of trying to purchase surface to air missiles used to shoot down aircraft?
Sure, there's some degree of risk but I come from England where we had the IRA operating for 20 years and they were an outfit who were at least competent enough to get arms without being caught. Even with regular bombings on the mainland I don't think most people would have said they felt at great risk from the IRA. A bomb blew up half a mile down the road from where I was living at the time. I still never felt at great risk. I'm sure there are just as many white guys like Tim Mcveigh trying to get access to weapons too. Do you feel at great risk from them too?
The beheadings of Americans?
But that's 3000 miles away in a country the US has just invaded. I'd agree with you that Americans are at great risk in Iraq..but surely that's what goes hand in hand with invading places?
Al-Qaeda's "fatwa" sometime. It explicitly says that Americans
I suppose it's how seriously you want to take these people tho. I'm sure black guys could read any number of white supremacist tracts saying "Armageddon is coming and we will be at the forefront of the war against the blacks". Then you see the guy who wrote it and it's a 50 year old guy called Earle working at the gas station who last did a push-up 5 years ago.
I'm not saying there isn't some kind of risk, I'm just questioning whether it's a great risk. Not one muslim has killed himself launching a suicide attack in the US since 2001. We've just blown fuck out of Afghanistan and Iraq - if you can't get a muslim to attack somewhere in America now it's not looking very good for Bin Laden. I'dve been expecting attacks in american cities on a monthly basis if there was such a big threat and al-qaeda were such bad-asses.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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HagbardCeline
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Xlea321]
#2970783 - 08/06/04 01:13 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Who the hell are you and what have you done with Alex! 
I've never seen you so lucid. I still disagree with some of what you said, but I think this is the first time I've seen you be so reasonable. Are you on drugs? 
I need to get to bed so I'll just say one quick thing. First, we don't know how many plans have been thwarted. There have been several arrests that were under suspicious circumstances that we never heard another thing about.
The reason I believe the risk is so great though, is because many of these people are not only willing to die themselves for their cause, but want to kill as many as possible along with them. The threat from a NBC weapons are so extreme, it only takes one time. We know they are resolute in doing this and have stated many times they want nothing less than our complete annhilation. Our economy is also very susceptable to an attack.
They don't seem to want to waste their time or resources in small scale operations like sniping and the like. They are looking for the big show.
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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deafpanda
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
#2971012 - 08/06/04 04:42 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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People really should get some perspective on terrorism. More people were killed in terrorist attacks in 1998 than they were in 2001.
About 6000 people die every year from terrorism worldwide. Over 20000 were murdered in 2001 in the US alone.
Obviously you will never please all of the extremists all of the time. There will always be terrorism of some sort. America's arrogant foreign policy just worsens the situation.
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Xlea321
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: HagbardCeline]
#2971159 - 08/06/04 07:44 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Who the hell are you and what have you done with Alex! He's locked in the basement I've never seen you so lucid. I still disagree with some of what you said, but I think this is the first time I've seen you be so reasonable. Are you on drugs? Yeah but it's the first time I've encountered a right-winger like Randall on the board. You can discuss things without him launching personal attacks like a pissy 5 year old if you disagree. I've got time for him. The reason I believe the risk is so great though, is because many of these people are not only willing to die themselves for their cause, but want to kill as many as possible along with them. Sure, but I'd be expecting to have seen a few suicide bus-bombings in America at the very least in the last 3 years. Not one attack in 3 years while America has rampaged around the world killing thousands of muslims isn't my idea of a terrible threat.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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RandalFlagg
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: psilomonkey]
#2971745 - 08/06/04 11:25 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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a) Stopping aid to Israel would result in its destruction. Their economy can not sustain itself without aid, and their advanced American arsenal need parts and supplies than only America can supply.
Even if that is true, I don't think it is America's problem. Given Israel's nuclear capability and other advanced weaponry, I think they could easily defend themselves.
Consider how Jews all over the world would react. Seems likely to me you would just have recruited a whole new terrorist problem, we distributed, well connected and financed.
Again, that is not America's problem. I think it would be greedy (I am not trying to be anti-semitic by saying that) of them to get mad at us for giving them billions of dollars over the years and then stopping because they are capable of defending themselves now.
Israel should be brought into line, at least be made to uphold the promises it has made to your president. Only America can do this, aid is a good lever, the UN veto is another.
I think it was hypocritical of the U.S. government to demand that Iraq obey U.N. resolutions to disarm, but then make no demand for Israel to obey U.N. resolutions about the land they occupy.
b) Geopolitics. America (and the rest of the world) needs oil. Its does not have to, America has the land, resources and technology to lead the world out of this carbon age madness.
I wish we didn't have to rely on oil either, but for now I am afraid we have to. Until somebody comes up with a reasonable substitute for the internal combustion engine, we will need oil. Also, think of the severe economic consequences if the oil industry were to disappear overnight. Millions would be put out of work and an enormous amount(hundreds of billions of dollars...if not trillions) of equipment owned by Americans would become obsolete and valueless.
The Middle East has a lot of the oil in this world. Oil is the only form of wealth most Middle Eastern countries have. It is all they have to sell to engage in the world economy. It is in their best interests that the oil keep flowing, because if it didn't their countries would be broke. So, because of that I surmise that no matter what the political situation in the Middle East is, the Arabs will always find a way to get oil to the market.
However, I do have fears that if hardline Islamic governments take control of the entire Middle East and band together, they will have great wealth. They can then use this great wealth in an attempt to spread their ideology by force...much like the Communists tried to do.
I can never agree with torture and collective punishment, I am very glad the Nazis were defeated.
I understand that opinion, but I am of the opinion that it is the only way to deal with savages.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Xlea321]
#2971782 - 08/06/04 11:37 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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a lot of terrorists are well-off and well-educated
By education I mean among the general population. There's always gonna be a handful of highly educated terrorists - it's operating in countries where the vast bulk of people arn't supportive that's the problem.
If America had spent 200 billion on your education and given you clean drinking water instead of spending it dropping bombs on your family and invading your country
The Muslims don't hate us because of lack of education or health services. They hate us because we give Israel money and weapons and we meddle in the Middle East. Therefore giving them a bunch of money would not solve the problem. It would be tantamount to a bribe, and they would still hate us. We would be throwing our money away.
Fear is one of the few things that seem to be granted universal
You have a point but on the other hand I think Israel is pretty well feared by the Palestinians and it hasn't stopped the terrorism.
Israel doesn't horrifically torture its prisoners. They beat them up and destroy their family's homes. If Israel engaged in tactics similar to what the Muslims do against them, the Muslims would be filled with much more fear.
Also, Israel is inexorably involved in a conflict. America is not....we have the ability to withdraw from this. The Muslims will always fight Israel as long as it exists...no matter what the consequences. The Muslims will fight America as long as we support Israel. We are a secondary target in the grand scheme of things.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Xlea321]
#2971820 - 08/06/04 11:46 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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If Americans don't face much risk, why were two mosque leaders inAlbany, New York arrested this morning on charges of trying to purchase surface to air missiles used to shoot down aircraft?
Sure, there's some degree of risk
A(n IRA) bomb blew up half a mile down the road from where I was living at the time. I still never felt at great risk.
I suppose it's how seriously you want to take these people(Muslims extremists) tho. I'm sure black guys could read any number of white supremacist tracts saying "Armageddon is coming and we will be at the forefront of the war against the blacks".
I'm not saying there isn't some kind of risk, I'm just questioning whether it's a great risk. Not one muslim has killed himself launching a suicide attack in the US since 2001.
I'dve been expecting attacks in american cities on a monthly basis if there was such a big threat and al-qaeda were such bad-asses.
Given how sophisticated and deadly the September 11 attacks were, the proliferation of radiocative materials, Muslim sentiment around the world, and Muslim extremist's organization and determination, I fear greatly that America will be hit again by a catastrophic attack.
I'm sure there are just as many white guys like Tim Mcveigh trying to get access to weapons too. Do you feel at great risk from them too?
They are not as numerous, well-funded, and determined as Muslim extremists are.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: deafpanda]
#2971838 - 08/06/04 11:51 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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People really should get some perspective on terrorism. More people were killed in terrorist attacks in 1998 than they were in 2001.
Maybe in other parts of the world, but not in America, which is where I am concerned about.
About 6000 people die every year from terrorism worldwide. Over 20000 were murdered in 2001 in the US alone.
True, it is much more likely that you will be killed by a fellow American than by a terrorist. However, given the scale of the September 11 attacks, it is obvious that Muslim extremists are interested in inflicting massive casualties. This is cause for concern.
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HagbardCeline
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Xlea321]
#2974255 - 08/07/04 12:14 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah but it's the first time I've encountered a right-winger like Randall on the board. You can discuss things without him launching personal attacks like a pissy 5 year old if you disagree. I've got time for him.
Fine, just don't make it something regular. I enjoy seeing you finagle you way out of confrontation.
And for the record, I'm pissy at a 7 year old's level. At least.
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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Zahid
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
#2974760 - 08/07/04 05:49 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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It has always been Christian fundamentalism that has stirred emotions in the Middle East. From the Crusades, to the Clash of Cultures of today that revolve around Palestine and Israel. People seem to forget that for a good 600 years the Muslims had the most power in the world, and the caliphs during that Age had little interest to persue gain outside the Muslim world. For the most part, for centuries Muslims have been minding their own business, having their way of life peacefully until unpopular modernization programs spearheaded by the Western World began to colonize the Islamic world, reducing a once healthy empire to a bunch of poor mini-states. It's Christian fundamentalism that has backed the support of Israel ever since the Zionist movement began to take fold and up until today - Christian fundamentalists, who believe Israel must exist at any cost because its existence is entwined with the second coming of Christ. I.e, Jesus is coming any day now, Israel must prevail! And of course, with the pre-emptive military invasions on the part of the Republican Party, the unofficial 'Party of God' in the West. The Iraq invasion was backed by Christian fundamentalists from every wing of the globe. Here in Canada the leading voice in scolding liberal Canadians for not supporting our southern neighbor is Christian columnist Michael Coren, a Protestant extremist who was suspended briefly by the Sun Media for calling Mel Gibson's Passion a 'Roman Catholic Blood Cult' while he accused the Roman Catholic church of being as deep seated in Anti Semitism as Islam (which caused the bigger uproar). Coren is the leading voice of Christian gun nuts in Canada, where the fundamentalist Right wing is becoming a loud minority and shaming the majority of Canadians for being 'liberal' in the face of Bush's War of Terror has also worked. Some might see it as a clash of cultures, and it is in a sense; as currently it's not Islam and Christianity that's clashing, it's fundamentalist movements on both sides that are clashing. The vast majority of Christians and Muslims simply wish to live their lives in peace where they can raise their families in peace. However, in the West fundamentalists are active in Conservative politics where policy is almost always enforced with the influence of religion, and in the East, where Muslim fundamentalists remain socially active against the West and Israel - and a very few, decide to travel abroad to the shady countries with an al-Qaeda presence to join the on-going struggle to right the perceived wrongs that have been done to Muslims. Frankly, the only sane voices in this conflict is the American left wing (among other left wings, heh), and the Moderate Muslim majority who simply identify with the fitnah of their sect (Sunni and Shia) and do not adhere to the far Right Wing of Islam, Salafism (known as Wahabism to non-Muslims). Salafis are one of the smallest groups of Muslims in the Islamic world, and every last suicide terrorist attack is also carried out by a Salafi. Bin Laden is a Salafi, the 9/11 19 were Salafis, the radical clerics in Britain that are constantly praising terrorist attacks are Salafis (and are often forced to preach in the street because they're too fanatic) the Taliban was Salafist, and the Muslims that are resisting the occupation in Iraq are also Salafi. The only thing outside Sunnism that may resemble the Salafi movement is 'Tehranian' Shia, which is theocratically strict as opposed to the fascist ideologies of Salafis. Even a non-violent Salafi is a slap in the face to any thinking individual, as they have a reputation among other Muslims in the mosque for being arrogant, only saying Salaam to Muslims with beards, and generally regarding all non-Salafi Muslims as un-saved for not holding strong to the Sunnah of the Prophet. Christian fundamentalists give moderate Muslims crap all the time for terrorist acts committed by a minority within their faith that considers the moderate Muslims themselves to be unsaved anyway. And this frankly, since the 'War on Terror' has begun, has only pushed moderate Muslims into Salafi Muslims; all over the world. It's somewhat not a surprise, as even I get fed up at some rude non-Muslims who always ask me pretentious questions that imply that me and all other Muslims are partly responsible for the political madness of a few Muslims out of the woodwork - but there's a middle ground, since I refute them by making them guilty for the crusades in a sarcastic manner that gives the obvious impression that I dislike xenophobia and generalizations. Dude, trust me: It's going to be Western and Muslim intellectuals who win this war.
Edited by Zahid (08/07/04 06:18 AM)
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deafpanda
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Zahid]
#2974766 - 08/07/04 06:02 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Mmm. Separating church and state properly would be nice.
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Zahid
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: deafpanda]
#2974784 - 08/07/04 06:13 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yes, it would.
But with the Republican Party in the states, and the conservative parties all over the West, how do think that can ever be accomplished?
Eventually - when humans mature ever so more, Social Conservative movements are going to be a thing of the past as complete secular rule is the only logical solution as it is becoming apparent today that Conservative policy has done nothing but shovel crap back in the face of the West.
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: deafpanda]
#2974814 - 08/07/04 06:51 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
deafpanda said: Mmm. Separating church and state properly would be nice.
While I would have no problem with a constitutionally mandated separation, you must surely realize the constitution makes no such statement?
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
All it says is the government shall not start or stop religion.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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deafpanda
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#2974822 - 08/07/04 07:02 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm not American...I couldn't tell you anything about the constitution. It may not advocate this separation, but common sense does.
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: deafpanda]
#2974827 - 08/07/04 07:05 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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If you re-read my post a little slower you'll see I think it should as well.
The point is that the oft quoted separation does not exist in the constitution no matter how many claim it does.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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