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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
How I would end Muslim hatred towards America
    #2964818 - 08/04/04 04:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

There is little doubt that America faces great risk from
Muslim extremists who want to kill us. Here is how I would
win the "war on terror".

1. Defuse their anger.

a. Stop all aid to Israel. The Arabs and the Israelis hate
each other and probably always will. It is absolutely
none of America's business what goes on between Israel
and its neighbours. When we give Israel money and weapons,
we get absolutely nothing in return, and we gain the hatred
of a billion Muslims around the world. It is not strategic
or intelligent to give Israel aid. And, on top of that, they
are so much more powerful than their Arab neighbors that
they are more than capable of defending themselves.

b. Pull out all American military personel from Saudi Arabia.
Having American troops in the kingdom that houses the holiest
sites of Islam pisses off Muslims.

c. Stop all aid to oppressive Middle Eastern governments that
are unpopular with their own populations(Saudi Arabia, Egypt,
and Jordan). All of these governments are undemocratic and
despised by their respective civilian populations.

d. Stop all covert meddling in Middle Eastern affairs. For
years America has stuck its nose where it didn't belong.
For example, look at how we propped up the Iranian Shah
for years.

e. Stay in Iraq, but make an explicit promise that we have no
interest in setting up a compliant or outright puppet regime.
Our only interest is to establish a stable democracy in
that country. And, our actions would attest to that.


Once the activities that make Muslims angry were stopped, I would
consider all further terrorist actions by Muslims to
be "breaking the truce". If that happens I think that America
should take a zero tolerance stance towards the terrorists in
question.

2. No mercy or tolerance for terrorism

a. Use torture. If someone has information about an attack,
American lives are at risk, and normal interrogation does not
yield information, I think no mercy should be shown. Gouge
out their eyes, cut their fingers off, burn their skin, and
put their legs into wood chippers. This sounds extreme and
it is. The only way to fight savages(these people love
killing innocent civilians and chopping off their heads) is
to be brutal yourself.

b. Anytime an attack against Americans occurs, the suspects
should be rounded up, tortured, and killed. The videos should
then be given to the Arab news media to show what happens to
people who do engage in terrorism.

I have a feeling that I will get a lot of hate mail for these
suggestions. Let the flaming begin!

Randalflagg


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Offlineld50negative1
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2964822 - 08/04/04 04:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

genocide.


--------------------


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2964901 - 08/04/04 04:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I like it but would also stop ALL aid to middle eastern countries. Why stop funding to Isreal and NOT these other countries. We get absolutly nothing in return from the hundreds of millions of dollars we give them now.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2964920 - 08/04/04 05:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I agree with number 1, at least. That's a good start, stop the hatred at the source by stopping the actions that create the majority of terrorists in the first place, then send spies and secret forces in to execute the rest of them. Torture is a bit extreme, I'd look more into truth drugs combined with electroshock, raising the power every time, or something else that doesn't physically harm them, so we don't look like barbarians that stoop down to their level. It may not, in reality, be any better painwise, and may actually be worse, but in the end we could send them off to trial physically intact and look all the better for it

Of course that is only for extreme circumstances, such as if there was an imminent terrorist attack

"Anytime an attack against Americans occurs, the suspects
should be rounded up, tortured, and killed. The videos should
then be given to the Arab news media to show what happens to
people who do engage in terrorism."

We're trying to stop terrorism, not create more. Don't stoop down to the terrorists' level, this would look even worse than the beheadings they've been doing, especially combined with the currently anti-American media in the middle east


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2964930 - 08/04/04 05:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

First of all we should stop giving aid to Israel when the Gaza pullout is complete. When the wall is complete and there is no more attacks on Israelis or Palestinians then aid should be stopped. I do however agree that we should stop giving aid to all Muslim countries except Afghanistan and Iraq. Then when Iraq and Afghanistan is back on their feet then we should stop giving aid.

Second of all we should not aid videos of torture. These activities should be kept secret.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2965003 - 08/04/04 05:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

We get absolutly nothing in return from the hundreds of millions of dollars we give them now.

Except oil :smirk:


--------------------
BTC - 1KqrSHZ1C3NsQP4g3PkHhppBnhdgyXr6sB


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Posts: 16,296
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: trendal]
    #2965026 - 08/04/04 05:35 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Which we pay for..unfortunatly. :rolleyes:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2965063 - 08/04/04 05:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

While I do agree that harsh measures should be taken against terrorists, I don't quite agree with the degree to which you advocate this in #2. While I realize that they have no qualms about resorting to such tactics themselves, I feel we should hold ourselves to a somewhat higher standard.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2965135 - 08/04/04 06:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Stay in Iraq, but make an explicit promise

I don't think Bush is too believable.

Think the studies show the most effective way of stopping terrorism is education. Instead of pissing away 200 billion invading places, spend 200 billion improving education, providing clean water, good sanitation, medicines for everyday muslims. For terrorists to operate they need at least tacit help and support from the population of the country they're in. Without that support, they wither and die. Education and genuine help are going to destroy terrorism. Calling them "evildoers" and playing the tough guy only makes it worse.

out their eyes, cut their fingers off, burn their skin,

Be fine if it worked. Unfortunately most of the time people just say anything to make you stop. The germans success rate using extreme torture was lousy.

Anytime an attack against Americans occurs

Nah, that's just going to create more and more terrorists. Look at it from your angle. If the Brits had strung americans up by the ankles during the war of independence do you think you'dve felt "Lets all behave ourselves"?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Xlea321]
    #2965161 - 08/04/04 06:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Think the studies show the most effective way of stopping terrorism is education.


What studies?

Seems to conflict with what this guy has found out...

"Terrorism expert Marc Sageman made waves at an international conference in Washington last week, when he presented his findings on 382 suspected terrorists who have direct or indirect links to Osama bin Laden's network..."

"Sageman found that, for all the simplistic claims made recently about poverty breeding terrorism, a majority of his al-Qaeda sample were middle or upper class and well-educated. Of his sample of 382, he had information on the social status of 306; he found that 17.6 per cent were upper class, 54.9 per cent middle class, and 27.5 per cent lower class. The highest number of upper- or middle-class individuals was among the Core Arabs (from Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Yemen and Kuwait)..."

"... the level of education reached for 264 of his subjects - 16.7 per cent were educated to a level less than high school; 12.1 per cent had at least a high school education; 28.8 per cent had some college education; 33.3 per cent had a college degree; and nine per cent had a postgraduate degree.

Even more surprising are Sageman's findings on what type of education these individuals received. Of 265 of his subjects, only 9.4 per cent had a religious education, and 90.6 per cent had a secular education. Among the Central Staff (bin Laden and co), fewer than five individuals had a religious education; among the Maghreb Arabs, none had a religious education."


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2965177 - 08/04/04 06:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

There is little doubt that America faces great risk

Not sure about this either Randall. I think there's an enormous doubt whether America faces "great risk". In the last 3 years with Bin Laden at the height of his fame after 9/11 how many muslim attacks have there been on the american homeland? He can't even convince one crazy-ass muslim to plant a bag of burning dogshit on an americans doorstep and ring the bell. One attack in 3 years isn't what I'd call a great risk.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 9 years, 9 hours
Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2965189 - 08/04/04 06:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
There is little doubt that America faces great risk from
Muslim extremists who want to kill us. Here is how I would
win the "war on terror".

1. Defuse their anger.

a. Stop all aid to Israel. The Arabs and the Israelis hate
each other and probably always will. It is absolutely
none of America's business what goes on between Israel
and its neighbours. When we give Israel money and weapons,
we get absolutely nothing in return, and we gain the hatred
of a billion Muslims around the world. It is not strategic
or intelligent to give Israel aid. And, on top of that, they
are so much more powerful than their Arab neighbors that
they are more than capable of defending themselves.

b. Pull out all American military personel from Saudi Arabia.
Having American troops in the kingdom that houses the holiest
sites of Islam pisses off Muslims.

c. Stop all aid to oppressive Middle Eastern governments that
are unpopular with their own populations(Saudi Arabia, Egypt,
and Jordan). All of these governments are undemocratic and
despised by their respective civilian populations.

d. Stop all covert meddling in Middle Eastern affairs. For
years America has stuck its nose where it didn't belong.
For example, look at how we propped up the Iranian Shah
for years.

e. Stay in Iraq, but make an explicit promise that we have no
interest in setting up a compliant or outright puppet regime.
Our only interest is to establish a stable democracy in
that country. And, our actions would attest to that.


Once the activities that make Muslims angry were stopped, I would
consider all further terrorist actions by Muslims to
be "breaking the truce". If that happens I think that America
should take a zero tolerance stance towards the terrorists in
question.

2. No mercy or tolerance for terrorism

a. Use torture. If someone has information about an attack,
American lives are at risk, and normal interrogation does not
yield information, I think no mercy should be shown. Gouge
out their eyes, cut their fingers off, burn their skin, and
put their legs into wood chippers. This sounds extreme and
it is. The only way to fight savages(these people love
killing innocent civilians and chopping off their heads) is
to be brutal yourself.

b. Anytime an attack against Americans occurs, the suspects
should be rounded up, tortured, and killed. The videos should
then be given to the Arab news media to show what happens to
people who do engage in terrorism.

I have a feeling that I will get a lot of hate mail for these
suggestions. Let the flaming begin!

Randalflagg




First: America gets about 80% of all its intelligence in the Middle East from Israel. Second, many Americans have families in Israel and abandoning them to Arabs who want to drive them into the sea is not a valid option. Israel is the only democracy in the middle east, the only free state, with a free press, and equal protection for all citizens. Turning our back on the only outpost of democracy in the region is ridiculous. It also sends a completely wrong signal by leaving Israel open to terrorism. It is complete hypocrisy to stop backing Israel in the face of terrorism if the US wants to avoid terrorism itself.

Second: Stopping aid to the Saudis would likely raise gas prices substantialy, and stopping aide to moderate Arab state like Egypt and Jordan would undermine the war on terrorism and make them weak to extremists. And stopping aid to all Arab governments that are unpopular with their people, that would be all of them, except ironically Iraq.

Pulling troops out of Saudi Arabia is not a bad idea except that like your option "a" caves into the demands of terrorists, and b puts the US at a strategic disadvantage in being able to defend Iraq from foreign terrorists.
Your point 'e' is already being worked on.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2965195 - 08/04/04 06:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

abandoning them to Arabs who want to drive them into the sea is not a valid option.

Arabs who don't have nuclear bombs will drive Isreal into the sea?

It is complete hypocrisy to stop backing Israel in the face of terrorism if the US wants to avoid terrorism itself.

You don't consider Israel might be guilty of a little terrorism itself?

And the US has backed Isreal for decades - terrorism is getting worse, not better. Clearly the policy isn't working.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Xlea321]
    #2965285 - 08/04/04 07:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:


Arabs who don't have nuclear bombs will drive Isreal into the sea?




Arabs don't nuke cities, they blow up buses and launch rockets into neighborhoods. Isreal is no longer up against conventional armies whose governments give a shit about nukes, they are up against terrorists and guerillas who account to no-one. Most of them come from the Palestinian territories, only miles away from Israeli cities. Nukes are not an option.


Quote:

You don't consider Israel might be guilty of a little terrorism itself?




No. I don't.

Quote:

And the US has backed Isreal for decades - terrorism is getting worse, not better. Clearly the policy isn't working.




At least Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are not trying to invade them anymore. As for terrorism, it is not getting worse. There have been terrorists killing Israelis since the fifties and in the last year terrorism has been on the down slide. Why terrorism increased in the last couple decades however, is because it works. The Palestinians got a seat at the UN General Assembly and massive sympathy and support through terrorism. Yassir Arafat has the Nobel Peace Prize. The only reason it has declined in recent months is Israel's security fence and the Palestinians being worn down by reprisals.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2965339 - 08/04/04 07:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

There is little doubt that America faces great risk from
Muslim extremists who want to kill us. Here is how I would
win the "war on terror".




america faces a much greater risk from christian extremists like bush and ashcroft..let alone the rest of the neocon junta..then it does from any muslim extremists...and as michael moore pointed out..the neocons have no interest nor incentive in actually winning the war...here is how i would win the "war on terror" ..start by getting rid of the fucking neocons...


Edited by Annapurna1 (08/05/04 12:34 PM)


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Xlea321]
    #2967359 - 08/05/04 11:58 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)


Think the studies show the most effective way of stopping terrorism
is education. Instead of pissing away 200 billion invading places,
spend 200 billion improving education, providing clean water, good
sanitation, medicines for everyday muslims.


I understand your point, but as Evolving mentioned, a lot of
terrorists are well-off and well-educated. For example, the FBI is
looking for a terrorist linked M.I.T. educated Arab woman in this
country right now(M.I.T. is one of the most prestigous universities in
America).

Conditions are bad in some Arab countries. Poverty can breed
anger, and the oppressive Arab governments are adept at criticizing
the U.S. through their state run presses in order to deflect
anger away from their own putrid governments.


out their eyes, cut their fingers off, burn their skin,


Be fine if it worked. Unfortunately most of the time people just say
anything to make you stop. The germans success rate using extreme
torture was lousy.


Maybe...maybe not. Torture would act as a deterrent. If some
terrorist financier knew that he would be thrown into a cage
with a hungry lion...it might cause him to reconsider his actions.


Anytime an attack against Americans occurs


Nah, that's just going to create more and more terrorists. Look at it
from your angle. If the Brits had strung americans up by the ankles
during the war of independence do you think you'dve felt "Lets all
behave ourselves"?

Fear is one of the few things that seem to be granted universal
notice and respect in the Middle East. It is how Saddam(and many
other Arab rulers) managed to hold onto power for so many years.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Xlea321]
    #2967388 - 08/05/04 12:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)


There is little doubt that America faces great risk


Not sure about this either Randall. I think there's an enormous doubt whether America faces "great risk".

If Americans don't face much risk, why were two mosque leaders in
Albany, New York arrested this morning on charges of trying to
purchase surface to air missiles used to shoot down aircraft?
Have you forgotten the bombing of the USS Cole? The first
World Trade Center bombing? The beheadings of Americans? I
would say that these actions show that extreme Muslims want to
kill us. That seems to be very threatening to me.


In the last 3 years with Bin Laden at the height of his fame after
9/11 how many muslim attacks have there been on the american
homeland? He can't even convince one crazy-ass muslim to plant a bag
of burning dogshit on an americans doorstep and ring the bell. One
attack in 3 years isn't what I'd call a great risk.

We are just lucky that the homeland hasn't been hit again. Read
Al-Qaeda's "fatwa" sometime. It explicitly says that Americans
are the enemy and they should be killed wherever they are. The
fact that these people are willing to kill themselves to kill us
shows me that they are fanatical and dangerous.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2967445 - 08/05/04 12:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)


First: America gets about 80% of all its intelligence in the Middle
East from Israel.

We wouldn't need all of that intelligence if we weren't meddling
about in the affairs of others.


Second, many Americans have families in Israel and abandoning them to
Arabs who want to drive them into the sea is not a valid option.

Israel could destroy all of the Arab countries at once with its
hand tied behind its back. With or without our aid.


Israel is the only democracy in the middle east, the only free state,
with a free press, and equal protection for all citizens.

True.


Turning our back on the only outpost of democracy in the region is
ridiculous.

We wouldn't be turning our backs on them. We would be stopping
aid that they don't need in the first place. Does it make
strategic sense to endear ourselves to six million people,
all the while earning the hatred of a billion people?


It also sends a completely wrong signal by leaving Israel open to
terrorism. It is complete hypocrisy to stop backing Israel in the
face of terrorism if the US wants to avoid terrorism itself.

The Middle East is a mess. It has been for a long time, and it
will probably be that way for a long time. The Arabs will
ALWAYS hate Israel, because they feel that its birth as a nation was
illegal. There will always be animosity in regards to that. Why
should Americans put ourselves in the middle by taking sides in such
a bitter conflict?


Second: Stopping aid to the Saudis would likely raise gas prices
substantialy,

If the U.S. government didn't spend so much money, it wouldn't
need to tax its citizens so much. Half of the money a person
spends for a gallon of gas in America is for taxes. Also, I would
rather pay a little more for gas if it meant that the U.S. was
not involved in the Middle East quagmire. If not being involved in
the Middle East means that the U.S. price for gasoline goes up to $3
a gallon, then so be it.



and stopping aide to moderate Arab state like Egypt and
Jordan would undermine the war on terrorism and make them weak to
extremists.

I don't give a shit what happens in Egypt or Jordan. I don't
give a shit if the Jews and the Arabs kill each other. It is
not the U.S.'s business.


And stopping aid to all Arab governments that are
unpopular with their people, that would be all of them, except
ironically Iraq.

Exactly.. They shouldn't be getting any of our money.


Pulling troops out of Saudi Arabia is not a bad idea except that like
your option "a" caves into the demands of terrorists

I don't consider it caving. I consider it a legitimate reason as
to why the terrorists are mad with us(don't mistake me for a
terrorist sympathizer however). Such a simple move could cause a
lot of anger to abate. That is in our strategic interest.


and b puts the US at a strategic disadvantage in being able to defend
Iraq from foreign terrorists.

The troops we have in Iraq can defend Iraq from foreign terrorists.
And, do you think that the Saudi government would ever allow U.S.
forces to operate on its soil to "stop terrorists"? The Saudi
public would be outraged and would probably overthrow the Saudi
monarchy.


Your point 'e' is already being worked on.


And I hope to God it works out.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2967463 - 08/05/04 12:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:thumbup:Great post!


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: How I would end Muslim hatred towards America [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2967474 - 08/05/04 12:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)


america faces a much greater risk from christian extremists like bush
and ashcroft..

Do you see Christian extremists trying to kill massive amounts
of American civilians? When was the last time that a Christian
extremist mass murder plot was uncovered? When was the last time
that a Christian extremist killed an American? Extremist Muslims
have REPEATEDLY attacked America. They were attacking us way before
Bush and Ashcroft. The first World Trade Center bombing and the
African embassy bombings occurred under Clinton for example. They
are very blunt when stating their goals. They want to kill
Americans, and they do so ruthlessly and savagely. If that is not a
big threat.....then I don't know what is.


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