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Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave?
    #29637831 -

I wanted to make agar but do not have a pressure cooker. I have seen Tyndallization, fractional sterilization and the microwave mentioned as methods.

Would there be any advantage to combining these methods and using the microwave for boiling the agar?

I have never used the microwave to boil liquids but am guessing it could not be done for 15 minutes as used in  the traditional tyndallization method. Would a short boiling time but the benefits of the microwave be as effective?

Do I need to be worried about pressure in the container, would I need to drill a hole in the lid and cover it with micropore tape or just leave it a little lose?

Would smaller no pour containers get to messy in the microwave?

Last question. In the tyndallization process it says to keep it at 30 degrees  between boiling but I read room temperature should be ok. Is it worth keeping the agar in a insulated shopping bag between boils.

Thanks for any help.

Edited by desultoryendeavour (08/01/26 03:18 PM)

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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: desultoryendeavour] * 1
    #29637835 -

If you have the money to buy petri dishes and agar I don't know why you don't buy a cheap pressure cooker. If you're serious about mushrooms (which you must be if you're bothering with agar) it's sort of a must-have. Not having one makes things so much more difficult.

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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: desultoryendeavour] * 1
    #29637843 -

Do you have a pressure canner? What is the end game with agar here?

That said, I've seen people boil agar in a pot as usual then steam sterilize the media bottle like pf jars and get away with it, I'm sure you could do the same with a microwave, I do suggest to boil it in a pot and then put the media bottles in the microwave and still monitor it the whole time because I have had the pleasure of washing agar mix out of my own, twice, it sucks mind you :lol:

And yes you will need to either loosen the lid or make some kind of filter as air and liquid will expand when heated.


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“All Fungi are edible.

Some fungi are only edible once.”
― Terry Pratchett


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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: Kloakk] * 1
    #29638184 -

I've made usable no pour agar steaming in a pot + rack with simmering water for 90 minutes. It seems less likely to boil over.

I've seen people in the plant tissue culture community using a microwave to make no pour media in quart jars. I recall they cleaned the containers with a 10% bleach solution before using the microwave. 🙃

Another option is brf pucks the tek write up suggests a 120 minute boil.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28649340/fpart/1/vc/1


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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: hellofresh]
    #29638213 -

The only time you should be using a microwave is to heat up agar for pouring and then you will need to loosen the cap and monitor it closely. It will over flow at somepoint and you have to catch it before it does. You can't just walk away from it kind of thing.


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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: fiddle_head]
    #29639742 -

I wasn't sure if it was something to do with the microwave waves that could sterilize or if it was just a method of heating.

I was just interested in seeing if I could make Agar with what I already have.

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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: desultoryendeavour]
    #29639850 -

Microwaves themselves won't sterilise anything. They force water, fat and sugar molecules to vibrate which creates heat. It's the heat that does the work. Tyndallization can be done on a stove top.

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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: MomoMyco] * 2
    #29640004 -

I tried microwave sterilized agar and I can safely say that for me, at my elevation, it did not work. If you are serious about the hobby, a pressure cooker is the single most essential piece of equipment there is. Trying to grow anything without one is pretty difficult, you will spend more time trying to not have bacteria than you will actually growing anything.


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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #29640027 -

Pastywhyte said:
I tried microwave sterilized agar and I can safely say that for me, at my elevation, it did not work. If you are serious about the hobby, a pressure cooker is the single most essential piece of equipment there is. Trying to grow anything without one is pretty difficult, you will spend more time trying to not have bacteria than you will actually growing anything.


Yeah in Bod's Comprehensive Agar Tek he says outright microwave is good for melting  formerly sterilized agar, and that's what a microwave is good for. On another post about tyndalization he pretty much destroyed it too.

One might get lucky, but consistency is the way, pressure cooker (canner) is the way (Bod also has an entire tek dedicated to folks too poor to buy a pressure cooker, PFtek all the way).


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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: bluescreen]
    #29640092 -

Only looking to do one grow a year. Didn't have good results with the pf tek.

Though spore to grain isn't recommended it has worked for me in the past but didn't want to keep chancing it and thought about trying agar but didn't want to invest in a pressure cooker for once a year.

Is it worth trying to use brf picks like agar plates, keep risking spore to grain or give pf tek another try?

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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: desultoryendeavour] * 2
    #29640173 -

PF tek all the way. If you do not have a pressure cooker pf is the most reliable option. The pf pucks will produce tiny amounts of mushrooms, but if you take myc from puck to grain that you didn't use a pc to sterilize you are taking multiple big chances. Each non-sterilized step multiplies the chance of failure.

I am not even a PF guy. Don't tell CakeWonder and Mateja, but I have never run a complete PF from beginning to end. I still whole heartedly endorse it as the way to go for maximum results from minimum effort and expense. Without a PC it is your best chance to get lots of mushrooms. There are no guarantees, but PF tek is the next best thing.

Give it a go and post a thread of what you are doing and how it is going. You will get lots of help and guidance to practically ensure success.


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #29640199 -

You can easily find a used pressure cooker or instant pot for under $20.  You don't need a huge 23qt one if you're only doing small scale grows.

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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: pinkpuddles]
    #29640305 -

pinkpuddles said:
You can easily find a used pressure cooker or instant pot for under $20.  You don't need a huge 23qt one if you're only doing small scale grows.



Over the last year I've run tons of jars in a 7 liter PC that I bought secondhand. Fancy Swiss shit, got it for a fraction of new. As my Japanese friend says,"only the way".


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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: desultoryendeavour]
    #29640314 -

I got a little 6qt mirro PC at goodwill for about 5$. It could fit 4 wide mouth pint jars at a time in it. And that thing served me perfectly well for several years. For small scale experimentation or just sating curiosity, that is all anyone really needs.

And dear god it was SO much better than watching my PF tek jars turn grey and pink and awful from failed tyndalization runs.


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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: matsc]
    #29640457 -

Oh yeah... I know the Mirro for sure. Technically I believe it's a Pressure Cooker and larger are Pressure Canners. Both work. Cheap even new really.


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Agar Plates and Removing Hidden Contaminants - A Visual Notebook
Recognizing Contamination in Grain Jars - A Visual Notebook
Contaminated Condiment Cup Cleanup v1.0

Green Cap Pheno Isolation

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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: DV8DUG] * 1
    #29640532 -

I bought an ice cream maker to use once a year 😂.


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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: DV8DUG] * 1
    #29640613 -

DV8DUG said:
Oh yeah... I know the Mirro for sure. Technically I believe it's a Pressure Cooker and larger are Pressure Canners. Both work. Cheap even new really.


The distinction makes a world of difference. We've used the words interchangeably over the years as if they're the same thing and they're not. All canners are pressure cookers but not all pressure cookers are canners. Canners have a large enough internal volume to hold steady heat and maintain appropriate pressure for long periods of time to ensure harmful, pathogenic endospores have been destroyed (Clostridium botulinum endospores). A pressure cooker has a smaller internal volume, doesn't maintain heat or pressure reliably, and fail to reliably defeat botulinum endospores during manufacturer testing. Considering we're in the endospore destruction game here, the canner is what you're after, not a cooker. One cooks food, the other may be used as a makeshift type N autoclave; the 2 terms aren't synonyms, despite what many on this site might claim.

I have source materials for anyone interested in studies run to determine efficiency of electric cookers used to sterilize liquids, validation performed by self-contained biological indicator ampoule in a laboratory setting by qualified researchers.

matsc said:
I got a little 6qt mirro PC at goodwill for about 5$. It could fit 4 wide mouth pint jars at a time in it. And that thing served me perfectly well for several years. For small scale experimentation or just sating curiosity, that is all anyone really needs.


No

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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 2
    #29640723 -

Funny enough I actually have tested that old Mirro on endospore inactivation. Every time id change the gasket id run a couple of these:



Using my normal grain cooking conditions (vial in a jar with micropore tape on the holes, 10 minute steam vent, 2 hours with the weight lightly jiggling, natural cool down) and they always came back as inactivated after incubation. I've also plated cooked grain negatives just out of curiosity, both in air and in an anaerobe jar, with fine results. (The joys of being adjunct faculty, lots of spare materials nearing expiration dates to liberate from the disposal stream)

That said, I still wouldn't have kept the grain I cooked sealed up for eating months later. But all of the mycology work i've done, at home and academically, has been aerobic so the risk of Clostridium growing out is very very low. (Something like Bacillus cereus maybe, but it is rather whimpy in terms of inactivation, seeing a 5 log reduction in just 3 minutes at 105C)

If you're canning low-acid food for storage, absolutely follow USDA and NCHFP recommendations/regulations (especially when stuff will be kept sealed and oxygen free). If you're cooking a pound of rye and woodchips in to see if your latest shiitake isolate will fruit at a warmer temperature, you can probably play a bit looser with the rules, as long as you're smart about it.

Just be careful. If your jiggler suddenly stops jiggling, kill the heat, you've run out of water. Don't skip the steam vent. If your jars go slimy or start smelling weird, toss them. Take your elevation into account. Etc etc etc.

And, of course, keep an eye on your local thrift shops/craigslist/etc, 16+ quart canners show up pretty often and you may be able to get a good deal either way. (Just check your stove's weight limit, especially if you luck into an All American behemoth)


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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: matsc] * 1
    #29640729 -

Good, at least you're informed. I ran the same validation with a 6q IP duo, which passed; although I know of others who ran the same validation which failed. It's doable but my recommendations always err on the side of caution and proper equipment. You may find this thread interesting. Glad to see capable people on the boards :rockon:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27970850#27970850

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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #29640748 -

Yeah instantpots only run at around 10psi (minus elevation) so cook times may need to be extended unreasonably long to get decent inactivation. Might work for simple media cooks, but id worry about substrate runs.


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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: matsc]
    #29640751 -

Decent for liquids and possibly PF, but some brands fail altogether even @ 300 mins. Better off just getting a presto but an electric cooker can work as a stop gap until better equipment is available.

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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 1
    #29640756 -

Ah, and for clarification my old Mirro was a 15psi stovetop cooker, not electric.


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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: matsc]
    #29640771 -

My bad, I should've looked it up first.

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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #29641191 -

I only suggested it because he needs something for agar. BRF bros deserve plates too! :heart:

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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #29641845 -

Pastywhyte said:
I tried microwave sterilized agar and I can safely say that for me, at my elevation, it did not work. If you are serious about the hobby, a pressure cooker is the single most essential piece of equipment there is. Trying to grow anything without one is pretty difficult, you will spend more time trying to not have bacteria than you will actually growing anything.


So true.
desultoryendeavour said:
Only looking to do one grow a year. Didn't have good results with the pf tek.

Though spore to grain isn't recommended it has worked for me in the past but didn't want to keep chancing it and thought about trying agar but didn't want to invest in a pressure cooker for once a year.

Is it worth trying to use brf picks like agar plates, keep risking spore to grain or give pf tek another try?

Try Kramer Cakes, link in my signature, they won't disappoint if you follow the instructions.

Stipe-n Cap said:
DV8DUG said:
Oh yeah... I know the Mirro for sure. Technically I believe it's a Pressure Cooker and larger are Pressure Canners. Both work. Cheap even new really.


The distinction makes a world of difference. We've used the words interchangeably over the years as if they're the same thing and they're not. All canners are pressure cookers but not all pressure cookers are canners. Canners have a large enough internal volume to hold steady heat and maintain appropriate pressure for long periods of time to ensure harmful, pathogenic endospores have been destroyed (Clostridium botulinum endospores). A pressure cooker has a smaller internal volume, doesn't maintain heat or pressure reliably, and fail to reliably defeat botulinum endospores during manufacturer testing. Considering we're in the endospore destruction game here, the canner is what you're after, not a cooker. One cooks food, the other may be used as a makeshift type N autoclave; the 2 terms aren't synonyms, despite what many on this site might claim.

I have source materials for anyone interested in studies run to determine efficiency of electric cookers used to sterilize liquids, validation performed by self-contained biological indicator ampoule in a laboratory setting by qualified researchers.

matsc said:
I got a little 6qt mirro PC at goodwill for about 5$. It could fit 4 wide mouth pint jars at a time in it. And that thing served me perfectly well for several years. For small scale experimentation or just sating curiosity, that is all anyone really needs.


No




Very solid advice here.

An easy way to check if your equipment is running hot enough be it cooker/canner, is to bring it up to temp with a load in it and then drop a few droplets of water on the lid, if the drops immediately boil and evaporate then your equipment is running hot enough to do the work, if the water runs down the top and just sizzles and evaporates your equipment is not running hot enough to do the job correctly.  I like this method because it will expose a cooker that may work great when it's half full but won't cut the mustard when it's packed. 

Also know that other factors besides your cooker are in play, heat source and elevation are always primary considerations.


--------------------
KRAMER CAKES



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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: ReverendMyc]
    #29642140 -

I was planning on inoculating microwave rice bags as I can't produce sterilized grain.

I wanted to go with grain over cakes as I've had success mixing with coir and fruiting in mushroom bags before. Sealed using aluminium foil and hair straighteners.

Was just looking to see if I could take some of the risk out of using the uncle Ben's tek without doing pk tek cakes.

Bags would be preferable for me over fruiting chambers or tubs which is why I wanted to use grain instead of pk tek cakes.

Is there a preference for brf picks with vermiculite over paste made with just water for this purpose?

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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: desultoryendeavour] * 2
    #29642152 -

desultoryendeavour said:
I was planning on inoculating microwave rice bags as I can't produce sterilized grain.

I wanted to go with grain over cakes as I've had success mixing with coir and fruiting in mushroom bags before. Sealed using aluminium foil and hair straighteners.

Was just looking to see if I could take some of the risk out of using the uncle Ben's tek without doing pk tek cakes.

Bags would be preferable for me over fruiting chambers or tubs which is why I wanted to use grain instead of pk tek cakes.

Is there a preference for brf picks with vermiculite over paste made with just water for this purpose?



UB is very frowned upon here for good reason.

If you don't have a PC, definitely go with PF Tek. Not sure what you're asking about paste; just STTFT (stick to the fucking tek). It was developed after much trial and error by someone who knows (knew?) their shit inside out, and our Ziran has provided a step-by-step updated version here.

You can fruit cakes in bags, not exactly like AIO bags but master Fahtster shows the way here. You can also grate/crumble cakes and spawn mixed with coir but if innoculating with spores don't, only do it if you know your inoculation source is clean.


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Edited by bluescreen (08/07/26 03:05 AM)

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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: bluescreen] * 1
    #29642384 -

:whathesaid:
Not sure about the paste question either.

BRF cakes can grow mush even if there is some bacteria. Rice bags cannot. If you cannot ensure that your grain (rice) is sterilized and inoculant is bacteria and  mold free (requires agar) then you are just rolling the dice and hoping for snake eyes. It will work sometimes but isn't advocated here where the aim is to teach reliable methods. If it goes wrong there is nothing to troubleshoot other than keep trying until you get lucky.

Also a great suggestion from bluescreen to use bags as a fruiting chamber for pf tek. I have top fruited loads of jars with just a Ziploc over the top. Fahtster's bag tek is even better. Just toss the pf cake rolled in verm or coir into a ziploc with some needle holes and you are set.

Lots of ways to win, but some are more likely to work than others. Without a PC, pf tek is going to take the prize more often than not.


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: ReverendMyc]
    #29643289 -

Thanks for the help. I went and got myself a pressure cooker and going to try the pf tek and fruit with a bag over the jar.

The pressure cooker says 1 bar which is just under 15 psi so I need leave the jars on there a little longer?

So with the pressure cooker, I can't do grain just liquids and pf?

As pf is designed for spores is it worth the extra steps to make Agar and LC for inoculation? Can brf cakes be inoculated with agar?

Microwave rice bags aren't sterile enough for inoculation with agar.

Sorry for all the questions and going away from the original post.

Edited by desultoryendeavour (08/08/26 04:55 PM)

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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: desultoryendeavour] * 1
    #29643317 -

1 bar is equivalent to ~14.5 psi, and that should be enough to reach the 121°C required. You can always add another 15–30 minutes for the grain. For PF-Tek, you have more than enough.

As for using agar, regardless of what you're planning to do with it, it's a basic practice if you want to clean, select, clone, or preserve genetics.

And yes, it is possible to inoculate BRF cakes with agar. From agar, you can prepare LC or LI to inoculate the cakes. Is it worth it? That's something only you can decide.

Hugs :heart:


--------------------
"Little shark in da bathtub"

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Re: Agar without a pressure cooker. Tyndallization using a microwave? [Re: desultoryendeavour] * 2
    #29644521 -

:whathesaid:

desultoryendeavour said:
Thanks for the help. I went and got myself a pressure cooker and going to try the pf tek and fruit with a bag over the jar.

The pressure cooker says 1 bar which is just under 15 psi so I need leave the jars on there a little longer?


Ya, 1 bar is good at sea level, just add a little extra time for grains. If you are at high elevation, add some more time, too.

Quote:
So with the pressure cooker, I can't do grain just liquids and pf?


Grains are fine with a PC, just tack on an additional 15 to 30 minutes to be certain.

Quote:
As pf is designed for spores is it worth the extra steps to make Agar and LC for inoculation? Can brf cakes be inoculated with agar?


With pf you can skip the agar because it was designed around using spores directly. It does pretty well even if you have some bacterial in the spores. It doesn't do anything to help against molds, though. That is where agar shines. You can use agar to inoculate brf by making a Li/LC or using a modified lid instead of the verm layer, but then you are getting away from the original tek which may lead to more difficulty troubleshooting problems.


Quote:
Microwave rice bags aren't sterile enough for inoculation with agar.


No way to be sure. Back to rolling dice.


Quote:
Sorry for all the questions and going away from the original post.


I don't think anyone around here will get upset with sincere questions from someone trying to learn. You will probably see some animosity toward folks who post questions and then argue against every response intended to help. But that doesn't seem to describe you at all. We are all rooting for you, I know I am.


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Cultivation
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