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Anonymous

which political party do you most agree with?
    #2960718 - 08/03/04 05:15 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

not for whom you would vote, but who you agree with most. (it's a shame i even have to say that).
?
You may choose only one
democrat
green
libertarian
republican


Votes accepted from (08/03/04 02:00 AM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: which political party do you most agree with? [Re: ]
    #2960736 - 08/03/04 05:19 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

none


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Anonymous

Re: which political party do you most agree with? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2960745 - 08/03/04 05:20 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

which one do you most agree with? and what is it that you don't like about their positions?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


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Re: which political party do you most agree with? [Re: ]
    #2960838 - 08/03/04 05:34 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Since there is no-one as smart as him, and he has all the answers, how could he even remotely agree with any party?










pssttt.... Dr. J.....  :wink:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: which political party do you most agree with? [Re: ]
    #2960944 - 08/03/04 05:58 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
which one do you most agree with? and what is it that you don't like about their positions?




well, I dont agree with any party in the purist sense. I believe that all positions of the political spectrum have situational applicability, and any party that claims to have all the answers contained within one band of that spectrum is full of shit.

thats like asking someone what their favorite mode of transportation is. You could choose one particular mode, or you could realize that travelling short distances is more practical in a car, whereas traveling long distances is more practical in an airplane. Different things work in different situations. Why limit oneself to one particular modus operandi?

too many people get moral superiority all tangled up in politics. Politics shouldnt be about what is 'right'; it should be about what works.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: which political party do you most agree with? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2961065 - 08/03/04 06:37 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
Politics shouldnt be about what is 'right'; it should be about what works.



Do you mean like Nazi Germany and 'the final solution'? That worked. Do you mean like the Soviet Union and it's Gulags. That worked. Do you mean like the U.S. genocide of the American Indians? That worked. Many political situations work.

Some questions:

  • Who benefits at the expense of whom via the coercive mechanism of the state?

  • Why should some people be granted dominion (either partial or complete) over the lives of others?

  • Who decides?

  • What should be the extent of the state's power?

  • If individuals cannot be trusted to make decisions over their own lives and property, by what logic can we give some individuals the power over multiple people's lives and property?

  • Do the failings which afflict men disappear when they command the power of the state over other men?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisiblefearfect
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Re: which political party do you most agree with? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2961085 - 08/03/04 06:42 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

"Politics shouldnt be about what is 'right'; it should be about what works."

so the ends justify the means? I hate when governments follow this line of reasoning. you know, like fascism? I think the government should focus on the freedom of the individual and in no way breach it unless it causes harm to others or hinders someone else's rights. also, g overnment should have nothing to do with religions. period.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: which political party do you most agree with? [Re: Evolving]
    #2961133 - 08/03/04 06:55 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Do you mean like Nazi Germany and 'the final solution'? That worked. Do you mean like the Soviet Union and it's Gulags. That worked. Do you mean like the U.S. genocide of the American Indians? That worked. Many political situations work.





your attempt to put words in my mouth is a testament to your argumentative incapacity. I find it hard to believe that you are 20 years older than me. Would you really think that I would consider situations in which masses of people uneccessarily suffer and die to be 'working'? I think you need to learn how to check your predjudices at the door before entering what is supposed to be an honest political discussion.

Quote:

Who benefits at the expense of whom via the coercive mechanism of the state?





Which state? Some acrhetypical state in the sky? specifics, man, specifics. Why are you asking me to set general rules when I have told you the entire basis of my political philosophy is the abscence of generalized rules?

Quote:

Why should some people be granted dominion (either partial or complete) over the lives of others?





why should children be kept away from explosives?

Quote:

Who decides?





circumstances

Quote:

What should be the extent of the state's power?





in this respect you could consider me a minarchist, though I tend to have disagreements with most minarchists as to the exact definition of 'as little power as necessary.' Also, i think this definition is always changing, whereas most minarchists tend to be very rigid in their own definition.

Quote:

If individuals cannot be trusted to make decisions over their own lives and property, by what logic can we give some individuals the power over multiple people's lives and property?





by the logic that sometimes one system works better than the other.

Quote:


Do the failings which afflict men disappear when they command the power of the state over other men?





sometimes.


I dont even know why I answered these questions, considering that none of them had anything to do with the spirit of my original post, which didnt mention a single one of these topics. What is this, 'badger the non-libertarian with endless pop quizzes' day? It seems to me you didnt understand my original post at all and have colored its meaning with your own perception.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: which political party do you most agree with? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2961152 - 08/03/04 07:02 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


your attempt to put words in my mouth is a testament to your argumentative incapacity. I find it hard to believe that you are 20 years older than me. Would you really think that I would consider situations in which masses of people uneccessarily suffer and die to be 'working'? I think you need to learn how to check your predjudices at the door before entering what is supposed to be an honest political discussion.




It's not putting words in your mouth, it's showing the hole in your argument. You made a statement, and examples were given of that statement. If you don't agree with the historical examples, perhaps the statement is flawed, wich I would agree it is. It doesn't matter if it works, a lot of things work. The war on drugs would work if put cameras in every household, chips on every person and drug tested the entire population weekly, shooting all of those who turn out positive. The path should be taken that guarantees the most liberties to the individual people and the least damage to the environment


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: which political party do you most agree with? [Re: Ravus]
    #2961167 - 08/03/04 07:09 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

It's not putting words in your mouth, it's showing the hole in your argument. You made a statement, and examples were given of that statement. If you don't agree with the historical examples, perhaps the statement is flawed, wich I would agree it is.




I really dont see how that statement was construed to advocate fascism. All I see is a bunch of libertarians chomping at the bit to talk shit to anyone who thinks differently than them. How tolerant and open-minded. The whole point of my post was that I dont agree with any particular political ideology 100%, including both fascism and libertarianism. I dont see how that is so hard to understand.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Invisiblefearfect
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Re: which political party do you most agree with? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2961255 - 08/03/04 07:47 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

its a two sided street. you have your opinions, others have theirs. don't expect everyone to grasp your opinions with open arms.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: which political party do you most agree with? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2961274 - 08/03/04 07:55 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
your attempt to put words in my mouth is a testament to your argumentative incapacity.



Where did I attempt to put words in your mouth?  They were questions.  Your statements are a testament to your lack of comprehension.

Quote:

Would you really think that I would consider situations in which masses of people uneccessarily suffer and die to be 'working'?



I don't know what you consider to be 'working.'  It seems from many of your earlier posts that you suffer from a superiority complex and come across as deluding yourself into thinking that you know better than everyone else.  So, one wonders what would satisfy your criteria of government that 'works.'

Quote:

Quote:

Who benefits at the expense of whom via the coercive mechanism of the state?





Which state?



In implementing any policy, this is a question that should be asked for any state.

Quote:

Why are you asking me to set general rules when I have told you the entire basis of my political philosophy is the abscence of generalized rules?



If you have no rules, how do you decide on a policy?  Are whims all that guide you?  If you think about a specific policy, you can apply the question.

Quote:

Quote:

Why should some people be granted dominion (either partial or complete) over the lives of others?





why should children be kept away from explosives?



What are you saying?  That all people should be treated as children by states?  (Notice that I am not putting words in your mouth, I am trying to understand what you are avoiding to say directly.)

Quote:

Quote:

Who decides?




circumstances



Reading comprehension problem?

Quote:

Quote:

If individuals cannot be trusted to make decisions over their own lives and property, by what logic can we give some individuals the power over multiple people's lives and property?





by the logic that sometimes one system works better than the other.



Really, what if opinions differs as to which works better?  Who decides?  What criteria is used in determining 'better'?

Quote:

Quote:


Do the failings which afflict men disappear when they command the power of the state over other men?





sometimes.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Quote:

It seems to me you didnt understand my original post at all  and have colored its meaning with your own perception.



I understand your original post quite well, I have not colored it at all.  Questions are sometimes posed to prode people to consider ideas from various perspectives.  I am amazed that you didn't pick up on that... (sarcasm - I didn't expect you to pick up on that)


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Anonymous

Re: which political party do you most agree with? [Re: ]
    #2961490 - 08/03/04 08:59 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

hmm. a republican in our midst. jesuschrist? zappaisgod?

i'm curious... whoever it is... why the republican party?


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: which political party do you most agree with? [Re: Evolving]
    #2961595 - 08/03/04 09:33 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Where did I attempt to put words in your mouth? They were questions. Your statements are a testament to your lack of comprehension.





whatever, dont play dumb with me.  Either you have the most cynical mind in the world or there was an ulterior motive to your 'questions'.  The only thing I advocated was openmindedness in political science.  You just took the ball and ran with it in a totally different direction, then blamed me for where you ended up.  Take a little responsibility for your perceptions of what people say before accusing them of things like being a fascist. 

Quote:

I don't know what you consider to be 'working.' It seems from many of your earlier posts that you suffer from a superiority complex and come across as deluding yourself into thinking that you know better than everyone else. So, one wonders what would satisfy your criteria of government that 'works.'





could we please discuss ideas and not personalities?  I'm getting really sick of all this well-poisoning from you. 

the definition of a government that works would be the same as the definition for a car that works, ie we can say that it works when we can see that it is fulfilling its intended purpose.  Government is just a facet of society and the purpose of society is the survival and prosperity of the human race. 

Quote:

If you have no rules, how do you decide on a policy? 




systematic observation leads to untold gigabytes of data.  In creating new policies we must examine this data to see what has failed and what has worked in the past.  We must be sure to account for the unique variables of each new situation.  I think its important to approach politics with a scientific mentality.  Like I said, its not about what you believe, or what you want to be true, its about methods which have proven themselves effective. 

Quote:

What are you saying? That all people should be treated as children by states?




all I'm saying is that there are some instances where the individual does not have the best judgement and must be restricted for his own good.  believe me, you have no idea how much it pains me to admit that.  Its not something I'm gloating about, its something I have come to painfully accept.  For I too was once a libertarian. 

Quote:

Really, what if opinions differs as to which works better? Who decides? What criteria is used in determining 'better'? 




opinions are always going to differ, and thats my point.  We need an objective criteria, and in my opinion the closest thing we have is science. 

Quote:

Do the failings which afflict men disappear when they command the power of the state over other men?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



sometimes.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:




so you are saying that this could never happen?  'Never' and 'always' are dirty words to scientists.  Excuse me for being offended. 

Quote:

I understand your original post quite well, I have not colored it at all. Questions are sometimes posed to prode people to consider ideas from various perspectives.




questions are also sometimes used to imply that someone thought or said something he didn't.  Why are you treating this discussion like a televised political debate?  This discussion is supposed to be for you and me, not the audience. 

excessive questioning is also a tactic to wear someone down.  dont you find it funny how all this started from a post I made which contained but a single word?  excuse me for expressing my non-libertarian opinion.  I'll try to stay out of you guys' territory' from now on :rolleyes:


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: which political party do you most agree with? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2961707 - 08/03/04 10:11 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

There needs to be some framework for government besides, "whatever works." If the question is how can the government build the most efficient highway possible, the answer under the "whatever works" code could be that the best means of getting from point A to point B is by bulldozing a couple of privately owned houses that happen to be in the way. Not saying you are in favor of eminent domain, but the philosophy of 'whatever works' is to me, even regardless of my own moral principles, too loose an axiom.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: which political party do you most agree with? [Re: ]
    #2961765 - 08/03/04 10:28 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
hmm. a republican in our midst. jesuschrist? zappaisgod?

i'm curious... whoever it is... why the republican party?




Not me, I voted libertarian in this poll. I blame that choice on Ancalagon. I am a conservative no doubt, and I will probably vote for Bush in the election if Ohio is close. I am not a member of the republican party. I have thought about joining just to try to voice my discontent that the party is not living up to conservative values.

I think that true conservative republicans are much like libertarians. The conservative revolution has happened for a reason. Republicans dominate the Governorships and state legislatures. They own the House, Senate, White House and Supreme Court. They have no excuse now to not get results. The need to start pushing the conservative agenda that they sold to people on their way into power. I believe the reason that they are in power is because people believed in their ideas. They got voted in for a reason.

I think that the conservative party is the party of the great ideas. Think tanks like the Cato Institute, The Heritage Foundation, and The Freidman Foundation have studied the issues and put forth credible proposals for a new public policy. Those are just some of the groups that have spear headed the conservative movement. Personally, I think that Milton Friedman has done more for conservative philosophy than any man in the last 100 years. 50 years from now, I honestly believe that we will be able to trace our best public policies back to his roots.

I think that this country is ready for change, and I think that it is time for our conservative leaders to lead. Ideas like rehauling the tax system, abolishing the IRS and the Department of Education, Instituting Private School Vouchers, free and unencumbered trade, ending governent subsidies and privatizing social security are all revolutionary conservative ideas that could fundamentally change this country for the better.

The Great Society is dead. It has failed us as a nation. The evidence has long since mounted. The War on Poverty was to last 4 years, not 40. Democrats have no coherent fiscal macroeconomic policy. They have no coherent policy at all, be it foreign affairs or domestic. They don't have a unifiying core set of values other than the punch-ticket, knee jerk responses of a few select issues such as abortion, guns and affirmative action.

The governement footprint is so massive it touches every part of our lives. It is time to give freedom back to the people. The Republican Party is in the best position to do just that. I hope and pray that they can stay true to the ideals that moved the people to elect them in the first place. Ronald Reagan told us that Government is the problem and he was right. Bill Clinton announced that the era of big government is over. Somebody needs to tell that to Congress.

The Republican party could be a great party, they just have to get back to the great ideas that are at the core of conservative politics.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: which political party do you most agree with? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2961793 - 08/03/04 10:38 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Personally, I think that Milton Friedman has done more for conservative philosophy than any man in the last 100 years. 50 years from now, I honestly believe that we will be able to trace our best public policies back to his roots.



Off-topic but I'd just like to wish Mr. Friedman a very happy 90th birthday. The man is right up there with Mises and Rothbard as one of the great liberty proponents of the 20th century. If only more would read his works.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflinePuZuZu
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Re: which political party do you most agree with? [Re: ]
    #2963893 - 08/04/04 01:20 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Green party.


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Anonymous

Re: which political party do you most agree with? [Re: PuZuZu]
    #2965678 - 08/04/04 09:40 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

i can't agree with the green party because half of their platform is unconstitutional and their economic plans are in extremely poor judgement.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: which political party do you most agree with? [Re: ]
    #2966034 - 08/04/04 11:14 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

you don't have a none choice on there :sad:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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