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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Tell us what WMD have been found [Re: Xlea321]
    #2953089 - 08/01/04 05:43 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

they have found several disposal sited with spent or obsolite artillary rounds but as of yet there has been no evidence of the materials to build nuclear arms or other devices that were thrown up in press confrences and throughout the media...

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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Tell us what WMD have been found [Re: Xlea321]
    #2953190 - 08/01/04 06:30 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Whether they find WMDs now has little bearing on the original justification of the war. It looks like they were wrong, but depending on what side you subscribe to you will see the decision to invade the same: correct or incorrect. I believe it was the correct decision based on the information available. Just because they find no weapons is not proof that the US government knew all along they were never there and lied to the public. These are unsupported claims with an illogical premise, and lack any relationship with whether or not weapons have been found.

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Tell us what WMD have been found [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2953608 - 08/01/04 07:55 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

It was the best information at the time, yet so many people opposed going in, and a shitload of people (including myself) believed that Bush and the government was making most or all of it up, that there were no WMDs. However, the protests were ignored, millions of people were ignored, the UN, European countries, etc etc were all ignored, so therefore it was not the correct choice to go to war with Iraq. Even many foreign countries who believed there were WMDs opposed the war, because it just wasn't necessary and they had experienced firsthand the effects of war on their land, and knew that one should not decide to go to war lightly. Yet nobody remembers these people very much at all, and even if we HAD had much more reliable information that Iraq had WMDs, it's still not good rationale for the war because it's obvious that Iraq is not at all a threat to us and war should be the last possible option, not first pre-emptive choice with shady intelligence


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Tell us what WMD have been found [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2953623 - 08/01/04 07:59 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
Whether they find WMDs now has little bearing on the original justification of the war. It looks like they were wrong




wrong is an incorrect answer... Lied out their asses is the correct answer.


Quote:

but depending on what side you subscribe to you will see the decision to invade the same: correct or incorrect. I believe it was the correct decision based on the information available.




coupld you explain this with a little more depth, my understanding is that we went to was with Afganistan due to 'terrorist' acts comitted by people that were not a part of the Taliban but instead private citizens that were a militant force, we over throw the taliban, the ones that slowed the opium trade to a near halt and our efforts has opened it back up.

We moved in on Iraq because of WMDs that were known not to exist because the UN inspectors have been there for 10 years and have never found evidence, the US Govt has manufactured evidence to justify going to war (police action) with Iraq. When the publick started questioning the existance of these weapons Iraq has no gained the same honor that afganistan has held, 'harboring terrorists' even though we have thousands of troops there to keep the peace by killing and torturing many inocent people


Quote:

Just because they find no weapons is not proof that the US government knew all along they were never there and lied to the public. These are unsupported claims with an illogical premise, and lack any relationship with whether or not weapons have been found.




Iraq has violated 16? UN resolution regarding the WMDs, according to the Bush administration since, since 1991. The US has violated over 400 of them in the same length of time, the US still posesses the largest quantity of Nuclear Arms and is burying them on our soil to 'get rid' of them

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Tell us what WMD have been found [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2954449 - 08/01/04 11:49 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Whether they find WMDs now has little bearing on the original justification of the war

:confused:

WMD's WERE the justification for the war. Invasion for no other reason than regime change is illegal.

Just because they find no weapons is not proof that the US government knew all along they were never there and lied to the public.

But you accept they'd decided to invade and just put any old bullshit propaganda they could about WMD regardless of how accurate it may or may not have been to try and bullshit the UN?


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Tell us what WMD have been found [Re: Xlea321]
    #2954618 - 08/02/04 12:22 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:

:confused:

WMD's WERE the justification for the war. Invasion for no other reason than regime change is illegal.[/qoute]


Once again that is hindsight. I see no reason to believe that many people with access to proper information, with the exception of Scott Ritter, knew Iraq had no weapons.

[qoute]Alex123 said:

But you accept they'd decided to invade and just put any old bullshit propaganda they could about WMD regardless of how accurate it may or may not have been to try and bullshit the UN?





I am not in a position to evaluate all of their intelligence, but given the coroboration of several countries intelligence agencies, the fact that the 'yellowcake claim' turns out to have been accurate, Iraq's past behavior, the tens of thousands of weapons that Iraq never reported destroying, and Iraq's deliberate deception of UN inspectors  indicate that there was substantive evidence that Iraq was armed and that it wasn't bullshit. Taken as a whole the individual claims seem a lot more accurate, but when the main premise is false also those claims seem alot weeker.

I have said this many times before, although the US had many other reasons besides WMDs to depose Saddam Hussein, it does not make any sense to me that they would invade Iraq without complete faith he had WMDs. This is political suicide. It has been obvious that as a result the reconstruction effort in Iraq is in serious jeopardy and people around the world don't trust the US. Top that off, Bush very well may not be re-elected. If he could have foreseen such embarassing and heavy consequences, would he really have opted to attack Iraq? Again, this indicates that the case against Iraq was not weak, delliberately, embellished or falsified. There is no motive to make a lie you know will blow back in your face and make you look like an asshole to everyone.

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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Tell us what WMD have been found [Re: Ravus]
    #2954658 - 08/02/04 12:37 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
It was the best information at the time, yet so many people opposed going in, and a shitload of people (including myself) believed that Bush and the government was making most or all of it up, that there were no WMDs. However, the protests were ignored, millions of people were ignored, the UN, European countries, etc etc were all ignored, so therefore it was not the correct choice to go to war with Iraq. Even many foreign countries who believed there were WMDs opposed the war, because it just wasn't necessary and they had experienced firsthand the effects of war on their land, and knew that one should not decide to go to war lightly. Yet nobody remembers these people very much at all, and even if we HAD had much more reliable information that Iraq had WMDs, it's still not good rationale for the war because it's obvious that Iraq is not at all a threat to us and war should be the last possible option, not first pre-emptive choice with shady intelligence




I think this fact definately shapes the current perception of the whole situation. Because so many people believed it was all a fairy tail to begin with the facts only reinforced that belief. However, from my experience the people that believed all of that were not being very realistic, and the ones supporting the war actually had access to real evidence. Most of the anti-war people I read, saw or encountered were not rational and had no substantive evidence to back their claims. It was the same 'Free Mumia' crap all over again. To contrast Bush and Co. had the CIA and pretty much all of world intelligence giving them information, as opposed to the protestor who only read the Communist Party newspaper and Gore Vidal's baseless speculation. BEing that so many believed that contrary to all economic realities the US wanted to steal Iraq's oil, and that it was a diabolical scheme for Halliburton, I did not take them seriously, and in my opinion rightly so. I still think those people (no offense) were wrong and did not know what they were talking about, succumbing to a trendy and paranoid leftist typology with little regards to the facts. It just so happens that they were right, Iraq had no weapons, but to me that is nothing but chance.

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Tell us what WMD have been found [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2955220 - 08/02/04 05:46 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Because so many people believed it was all a fairy tail to begin with the facts only reinforced that belief. However, from my experience the people that believed all of that were not being very realistic, and the ones supporting the war actually had access to real evidence.




What planet do you live on?? Why did people beleive that Iraq did not have a substantial WMD capability?

A) Because Powell and Rice told us so in 2002
B) Because weapons inspectors claimed Iraq had complied with 95% of requests made of them during the 90s.
C) Because the country had been crippled by sanctions and there was no evidence of any other countries supplying the neccessary ingredients for WMD so how were they making them anyway?
D) Because the British government had resorted to doctoring 10 year old PHd studies to try and justify the existence of WMDS.
E) Because a member of the British government, privy to the inteligence reports, resigned as he felt the intel did not justify the war.
F) Because the Iraqi's repeatedly claimed they had destroyed their WMDs
G) Because the weapons inspectors found absolutely nothing prior to the war.
H) Because there were reports from numerous source within the intelligence community complaining of government spin and dismissal of unfavourable evidence.


Quote:

To contrast Bush and Co. had the CIA and pretty much all of world intelligence giving them information,




It has been shown that Bush used intel which had already been discarded by the intelligence community in his statement of the union address. It has been shown that Cheney repeatedly claimed a link between Iraq and Al-qaeda a full YEAR after the FBI had dismissed the intel as suspect. In other words, they knowingly lied.

Quote:

BEing that so many believed that contrary to all economic realities the US wanted to steal Iraq's oil




Contrary to what economic realities exactly? Besides, if bombing a country unnecessarily and then forcing them to pay US companies for rebuilding with the proceeds isnt theft I dont know what is.
Regardless of that, the important thing is that the oil is now under the control of a US friendly government.

Quote:

did not take them seriously, and in my opinion rightly so. I still think those people (no offense) were wrong and did not know what they were talking about, succumbing to a trendy and paranoid leftist typology with little regards to the facts.




Perhaps instead of just saying "I think they were wrong" you might like to outline some of these so called facts that you base your beliefs on?

Quote:

It just so happens that they were right, Iraq had no weapons, but to me that is nothing but chance.




lol! unbelievable.

Edited by GazzBut (08/02/04 05:49 AM)

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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Tell us what WMD have been found [Re: Xlea321]
    #2955311 - 08/02/04 07:10 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

"We expected, I expected to find actual usable, chemical or biological weapons after we entered Iraq. But I have to accept, as the months have passed, it seems increasingly clear that at the time of invasion, Saddam did not have stockpiles of chemical or biological weapons ready to deploy."
(Tony Blair 14/07/04)

"They put exclamation marks where there had been question marks and I think that is hyping, a spin, that leads the public to the wrong conclusions." (Hans Blix - speaking on the case of the warmongers)

Does he have WMD?
He does have WMD!

Bit different ain't it?

oh and:

"U.S. officials should give up the "delusional hope" that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction so they can move forward with reform, David Kay, who once led the U.S. hunt for banned weapons, said on Wednesday.

"I think it's most important that the president of the United States recognizes that in fact the weapons are not there," Kay told reporters after speaking at The Government Security Expo and Conference.

"It's because until you do that you will not take this fundamental reorganization of the intel community on board," he said. Officials such as acting CIA Director John McLaughlin "hold out the delusional hope that eventually you'll find weapons," Kay said.

Kay stepped down from the CIA-appointed position of chief U.S. weapons hunter in January, and said he did not believe Iraq had banned weapons when the United States invaded."

thanks to squatting mermot for finding that - see his link in the 'A year in the WMD-ometer' thread)

Edited by CJay (08/02/04 07:51 AM)

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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Tell us what WMD have been found [Re: GazzBut]
    #2955412 - 08/02/04 08:31 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

It has been shown that Bush used intel which had already been discarded by the intelligence community in his statement of the union address.

I assume your speaking of the Niger claim,and no such thing has been shown. Though he may have quoted a forged (not faked) document, the claim that Niger was illicitly trading yellow cake with Iraq (as well as Libya, China, North Korea, and Iran) has been recently buttressed. http://cshink.com/iraq_had_talks_on_uranium.htm

See your point C above.

It has been shown that Cheney repeatedly claimed a link between Iraq and Al-qaeda a full YEAR after the FBI had dismissed the intel as suspect. In other words, they knowingly lied.

Yes, we all know that their "is no credible evidence" to support that Iraq and al Qaida cooperated. What exactly were they doing then in the meetings that have been shown to be credible? What of Putin's claim that Iraq planned attacks on the US?

I've seen you write several times about the weapons inspectors who said Iraq complied with 95% of their requests. When it comes to what we are talking about, this 5% isn't satisfactory. In fact, before the lead up to war, I remember them being highly critical of the Iraqi's noncooperation. This also only applies to requests made of them, not what they hid and didn't get challenged on.

It's undeniable that Iraq was in violation. There's proof they were working on building or aquiring weapons and the components they needed.

I admit that this appears to have been misjudged and in hindsight unnecessary (at least at the time it was done), but I don't think that it was an irrational or illogical decision on the part of the Bush admin.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Tell us what WMD have been found [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2955627 - 08/02/04 09:54 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

That is a very weak link and definitely does not offer any conclusive proof that Iraq were trying to purchase uranium. Im not saying they definitely didnt but that article does little to convince me.

"But European intelligence officials have confirmed that information provided by human intelligence sources during an operation in Europe and Africa produced sufficient evidence for them to believe that Niger was the centre of a clandestine international trade in uranium."

So somebody told them enough to make them believe. Wow, great stuff.

Quote:

What exactly were they doing then in the meetings that have been shown to be credible?




first of all, which meetings have been shown to be true? Lets make sure you are not making the same mistake as Cheney!

Anyway, perhaps Al qaeda approached Iraq thinking they might be able to persuade Iraq to offer help and Iraq listened to them and turned them down. Note im not saying this is what happened just offering plausible alternatives to your rather narrow minded assumption that if any meeting took place it must mean Iraq and Al qaeda cooperated on 9/11.

Quote:

It's undeniable that Iraq was in violation. There's proof they were working on building or aquiring weapons and the components they needed.





If its undeniable you will be able to tell me exactly what they were working on, what they were seeking and when all this took place. Please do.

Quote:

but I don't think that it was an irrational or illogical decision on the part of the Bush admin.




Of course not because your ego would find that rather distasteful. You see you have invested a rather large part of yourself in Bush being right. Let it go, To paraphrase Gandhi "The truly wise man is one who can change his mind easily"


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Tell us what WMD have been found [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2955771 - 08/02/04 10:28 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

If meetings constitute alliance - what then of the US Government's meetings with the Taliban? They had those nice folk over for dinner at the White House with all the trimmings.

If your argument is that meeting = alliance - well then it looks like the Taliban and the US government have an undeniable and credible link. These meetings are credible - what exactly were they doing in the meetings? According to you it could only have been one thing.

The US government is in league with the Taliban and should have been destroyed along with the Taliban.

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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Tell us what WMD have been found [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2955801 - 08/02/04 10:34 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

"There's proof they were working on building or aquiring weapons and the components they needed. "

Get it out then for God's sake - or is this a delusion?


-----------------------------------------------------

"I think it's most important that the president of the United States recognizes that in fact the weapons are not there" Kay

"I have to accept, as the months have passed, it seems increasingly clear that at the time of invasion, Saddam did not have stockpiles of chemical or biological weapons ready to deploy."
(Tony Blair 14/07/04)

"They put exclamation marks where there had been question marks and I think that is hyping, a spin, that leads the public to the wrong conclusions." (Hans Blix - speaking on the case of the warmongers)

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Tell us what WMD have been found [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2956726 - 08/02/04 02:28 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Though he may have quoted a forged (not faked) document, the claim that Niger was illicitly trading yellow cake with Iraq (as well as Libya, China, North Korea, and Iran) has been recently buttressed.

It's been even more recently demolished. Yesterday there was an interview in the Sunday Times with the guy who made it up.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Tell us what WMD have been found [Re: GazzBut]
    #2957430 - 08/02/04 05:35 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

That is a very weak link and definitely does not offer any conclusive proof that Iraq were trying to purchase uranium. Im not saying they definitely didnt but that article does little to convince me.

"But European intelligence officials have confirmed that information provided by human intelligence sources during an operation in Europe and Africa produced sufficient evidence for them to believe that Niger was the centre of a clandestine international trade in uranium."

So somebody told them enough to make them believe. Wow, great stuff.


Did you actually read the article?  I only ask because you call me narrow minded and egomaniacal, but then make statements such as these that lead me to believe either you didn't read it or you didn't understand it.  I've recently begun to try being more polite so the former seemed like the correct question though the rest of your post makes me suspect the latter.

Do you understand how the intelligence game works?  I've lost count of how many times this has been covered but once again, proof is very rare.  Evidence, in a variety of forms, is gathered to piece together what happened/happening.  The more independant sources and types that can be collected, the more likely that correct scenario will manifest itself. 


Quote:

The FT has now learnt that three European intelligence services were aware of possible illicit trade in uranium from Niger between 1999 and 2001. Human intelligence gathered in Italy and Africa more than three years before the Iraq war had shown Niger officials referring to possible illicit uranium deals with at least five countries, including Iraq.

This intelligence provided clues about plans by Libya and Iran to develop their undeclared nuclear programmes. Niger officials were also discussing sales to North Korea and China of uranium ore or the "yellow cake" refined from it: the raw materials that can be progressively enriched to make nuclear bombs.

The raw intelligence on the negotiations included indications that Libya was investing in Niger's uranium industry to prop it up at a time when demand had fallen, and that sales to Iraq were just a part of the clandestine export plan. These secret exports would allow countries with undeclared nuclear programmes to build up uranium stockpiles.




Quote:

This may have been the method being used by Libya before it agreed last December to abandon its secret nuclear programme. According to the IAEA, there are 2,600 tonnes of refined uranium ore - "yellow cake" - in Libya. However, less than 1,500 tonnes of it is accounted for in Niger records, even though Niger was Libya's main supplier.




Quote:

The Italians, looking for corroboration but lacking the global reach of the CIA or the UK intelligence service MI6, passed information to the US in 2001 and to the UK in 2002.

The UK eavesdropping centre GCHQ had intercepted communications suggesting Iraq was seeking clandestine uranium supplies, as had the French intelligence service.

The Italian intelligence was not incorporated in detail into the assessments of the CIA, which seeks to use such information only when it is gathered from its own sources rather than as a result of liaison with foreign intelligence services. But five months after receiving it, the US sent former ambassador Joseph Wilson to Niger to assess the credibility of separate US intelligence information that suggested Iraq had approached Niger. 




And even with all the bad mouthing he's done about the admin,

Quote:

But Mr Wilson also stated in his account of the visit that Mohamed Sayeed al-Sahaf, Iraq's former information minister, was identified to him by a Niger official as having sought to discuss trade with Niger.




Conclusive proof?  No.  A "very weak link"?  Also no.


first of all, which meetings have been shown to be true? Lets make sure you are not making the same mistake as Cheney!

Anyway, perhaps Al qaeda approached Iraq thinking they might be able to persuade Iraq to offer help and Iraq listened to them and turned them down. Note im not saying this is what happened just offering plausible alternatives to your rather narrow minded assumption that if any meeting took place it must mean Iraq and Al qaeda cooperated on 9/11.


For someone who acts so convinced about their understanding of the situation that they insult those who disagree, I'd expect them to be better read.  These have been posted numerous times and you can't always expect to be spoon fed.  If it was new or obscure I could understand but this stuff has been covered ad nauseum.  But I'll give you one interesting read just to humor you.

Also, why don't you quote exactly what I said that stated I believed any meeting between the two could only have been in reference to 9/11.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/152lndzv.asp


If its undeniable you will be able to tell me exactly what they were working on, what they were seeking and when all this took place. Please do.

Good God!  Read!  Try David Kay's initial report or my previous posts. 

Of course not because your ego would find that rather distasteful. You see you have invested a rather large part of yourself in Bush being right. Let it go, To paraphrase Gandhi "The truly wise man is one who can change his mind easily"

Thanks couselor!

I lay out an adequately in depth post detailing my reasoning for believing what I did and do, then you come in, act superior, and play counselor. Your attempt to disprove my position amounted to; 1.  Discounting a source. 2. A couple of insults. 3.  Questions discounting what I had said, not reasons.  and 4. A bit about my ego and the ability to change my mind seemingly meant to discredit my idea, again without actual reason.

Physician heal thyself. 

"A  truly wise man would have never had the wrong idea in the first place." - Me  :laugh:


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Tell us what WMD have been found [Re: CJay]
    #2957460 - 08/02/04 05:44 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

CJay said:
If meetings constitute alliance - what then of the US Government's meetings with the Taliban? They had those nice folk over for dinner at the White House with all the trimmings.

If your argument is that meeting = alliance - well then it looks like the Taliban and the US government have an undeniable and credible link. These meetings are credible - what exactly were they doing in the meetings? According to you it could only have been one thing.

The US government is in league with the Taliban and should have been destroyed along with the Taliban.




This place is teeming with comedians.  :laugh:

I'm inclined to think this a joke, but it's absurdity convinces me otherwise.

US = government.  Taliban = government (or did).  Governments have a variety of legitimate reasons for dealing with each other.  al Qaida's sole purpose is as a terrorist organization. 

Meeting between US & Taliban = legitimate.  Meeting between Taliban & al Qaida = illicit.  I'll go on if you'd like.


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Invisiblefearfect
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Re: Tell us what WMD have been found [Re: Xlea321]
    #2957475 - 08/02/04 05:48 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

apparently they have found some plans for WMD in children's classrooms. and a few very small quantities of left over improperly stored mustard gas from the gulf war which had no effect because they were not sealed right or something... they had missle launchers to test long range missles... lets see, what else. oh yea, they had the ability to aquire WMD, AND they hated the U.S.

grounds enough for me eh? I mean its not like the U.S. actually has weapons and tests missles! And I find it hard to believe, we have destroyed all plans for nuclear weapons...

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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Tell us what WMD have been found [Re: fearfect]
    #2957505 - 08/02/04 05:54 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

The US didn't sign an agreement promising that would do any of those things.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Invisiblefearfect
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Re: Tell us what WMD have been found [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2957538 - 08/02/04 06:04 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

then what grounds do we have to destroy another country who has no more WMD or ability to create WMD then we do?

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Re: Tell us what WMD have been found [Re: fearfect]
    #2957548 - 08/02/04 06:07 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Try rephrasing. In the context of what we're talking about I'm not sure what your asking.


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