PuffM4gicDr4gon said:

No this one is

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I can see why

PuffM4gicDr4gon said:

No this one is

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callmehippie said:

catgirl117 said:

Word, thank you for the encouragement! If I could ask one more question about the PF Tek. I read that, when I add water to the verm at the beginning, I should squeeze some in my fist and, if more than a few drops come out, I've added too much water. Should I be squeezing lightly or should I be squeezing hard? I can imagine that, with a given amount of moisture in the verm, a light squeeze would result in a few drops while a hard squeeze might result in a lot of water coming out.

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Honestly that part of the tek is really confusing. You should just ignore it. Stick to the recipe as long as you you do that you'll be good.

(I wish they would just take that part out of the tek. It's an issue that comes up and is covered frequently with noobs)

Put the verm in the bowl add the water mix it up it should feel damp.

Tilt your bowl up like you're going to pour the mixture out and scoop all the verm up to the top of the bowl if you get any water dripping out to the bottom of the bowl then that's too much. You don't want to see any water on the bottom of the bowl collecting.

Then start adding your brown rice flour a little bit at a time and mix it all together. When that is done put some of it in your hand and squeeze it. When you open your hand you should be left with what looks like a little compact nugget of barley damp sand.

Before you squeeze it though. It will  almost likely appear to be too dry and fluffy.. that's okay. Thats perfect.  As long as when you give it that squeeze you see that it's now can pack together you'll see that the moisture content is there. 

Typically if you go for what Field capacity is supposed to be. in that mixture. it's going to come out too wet and every time you PC or steam them you're going to have moisture issues.

So yeah just follow the recipe to a T. Your end result should be light and fluffy sand. That  packs together like a little egg in the palm of your hand.



Ps. For all other applications like preparing bulk substrate then you're going to want to be giving the Field capacity squeeze test and that means grabbing a handful and giving it a real hard squeeze. And you would only want a few drops to come out.

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tultedspoon said:

Good tips about the mound of verm or coir for the cakes to sit on. I kind of did this with one of my failed cakes from a failed water tub, gave up on this cake completely so we'll see how it turns out.

Right now I am just fruiting from jars because the species I have seems to have a mind of its own, but I may try this technique properly in the future.

Do you find that you get less top fruits when you put the mound on top of the cake? In some of the pictures I can see there wasn't shrooms there, but in the other pictures it's hard to tell if you put a mound on top or not.

Also, if you did put a mound on top just for the purposes of extra hydration, what is the benefit of that versus just spraying the top of the cake? Maybe some grow, maybe you get some aborts? But couldn't you possibly get more fruits if some survived the watering? (versus none growing in some of those top coir mound photos?). Or do the shrooms eventually make it through that top mound?

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Heres where I got the info from.  Its a fahtster write up. 

fahtster said:

I got the idea from PF himself off his old site.  He was the first vendor I ordered from.  It's the inner rez tek... I used it because I didn't dunk prior to first flush, I watered slowly over the course of few days... Actually, here is an explanation of what I did with the cakes... It's in my tek index over at 'topia but I should have it here also.

I wrote it a long time ago and I don't have time to reread it, so I'm just going to quote the entire thing so some of it may be a little outdated or some of you may not agree with it, but it worked for me...

Quote:

CAKE WATERING TIPS

The idea is a simple one... if you want more mushrooms, you need more water... if you add more water, you need more FAE . There is a certain point of water retention in a cake that is most beneficial to the cakes production of pins and the maturation of those pins into full fruit-bodies. I call it the "Arc of Excellence", others call it the "Point of Diminishing Returns".

Picture an Arc and at the pinnacle of this arc is a point... this point is where the retention of water is at it's most beneficial to pin formation/development and then the maturation of those pins, hopefully 100% of the pins formed or at least most of them while safely resisting contams or drying out. To the left of that point is less water and to the right is too much water. Going too much to the right can result in contamination due to the water content being too high and the cake cannot cycle all the water has available to it. This over-saturation can also lead to poor pin formation and/or pin abortion. Not enough water can also cause poor pin formation/maturation. adjustments on either side of the point are easy to make... simply add more water if the cake is too dry or allow the cake to dry out a bit if it's too wet.

The inner reservoir  is a great way to increase water distribution evenly throughout your cakes. even tho it's a small column (about the diameter of a nickel), it has no nutes and therefore is not completely colonized; only partially which keeps the reservoir intact and allows for absorption all along its length. This also acts as an extension of your top and bottom casing  layers providing water to all parts of the fruiting  surface. it's true that cakes have more surface area, but without proper water hydration, that extra area is unused. I highly recommend the inner reservoir  and that it's made when the cakes are made... this allows the cake to slightly colonize it which, again, keeps it intact and stops water from just draining out the other end and also allows the cake to absorb water from it thru the myc that thinly colonizes it.

It's quite easy to know when to add water to the cake if we follow the processes and environment that the cake is subject to. Adding water to the cake right after birth is the best way to achieve that "point". This is because the cake is sterile right after birth, which helps with the contamination risk. The cake also doesn't have to struggle and reserve water; resulting is a healthy, unstressed cake right from the get-go. This is why dunked cakes or cakes that water has been fractionally added typically do better than undunked cakes on their first flush.

If you Dunk  your cakes after birth, I would Dunk the cakes up 24 hours; do it in a fridge if possible... if doing it in the fridge isn’t possible, I’d change the water every 4-6 hours, especially if you’re dunking in a hot environment. Then apply a moist to wet casing  layer and leave be unwatered until about mid pinning.. of course doing your FAE's at least twice a day. I've done both, but lately I've chosen fractionally adding water after Birthing  over dunking . This is how I do that:

You can (highly recommended, def. during the summer months) pasteurize  your casing  material before application and boil the water you plan on using for the soaking of the casing  via bottle sprayer

1. I put down a piece of tin foil on the Perlite  and put a small pile of verm  on the foil and soak with water.

2. open the jars and poor off any uncolonized verm  air barrier... I don't scrape off the verm  that is attached to the cake... why? this is sterilized casing  material.. no reason to remove it if you're just going to put verm  on there anyhow (unless of course you are using a verm/coir  mixture or something similar). But regular verm  by itself works great.

3. then I birth the cake and hold it under water for about a minute with verm  barrier and all... this hydrates that verm  in the inner reservoir  and the air barrier.

4. I then apply a thick casing  layer, about that size is good (1.5 inches), to the top of the cake and soak it with water... to the point that there is water draining off the cake when it's tilted a little bit and place it on top of the pile of wet verm  on the foil. the cake will suck up this water in the next couple days... basically, this is a slow Dunk  but with lots of air available during the absorption.

5. Now you can do what I like to do and stack another cake on top of that one... this is a great space saver and utilizes the space you are already using. To stack the cakes, you need to put another piece of foil between them or water will get pulled down from the top cake via gravity; this will water log the bottom cake and dry out the top cake. You'll probably get a nice flush  from the bottom one but that cake will probably contam the next time around due to being water logged... putting a piece of foil between them stops this action of forcing the water down or at least slows it considerably. Now just repeat the steps for the top cake and put a small pile of soaked verm  on the foil and so on.

6. Now once you have your single verm  soaked cake, you give it a couple days to absorb that soaking... I come back on the third day of birth and soak the top casing  layer again to the point of pooling... This gets the cake about to the that "point" on the arc...

**note** -if you are doing the two cake "towers" only soak the top cakes top verm  casing  layer... the bottom cake just doesn't need a second soaking... it doesn't lose much water due to it being in close proximity of the Perlite  and being "capped" off by the top cake which allows for less evaporation. some of the water from the top cakes does find it's way to the bottom cake too, so that second soaking will most likely water log the cake.

7. Now I let the cakes go without another watering until mid fruiting  where the cakes need lots of water to extend their fruits. Watering here can replace the need for a Dunk  between flushes one and two.

There are is a large amount of factors that also play a role in when you should add water to the cake (which I do so by watering the center of the top casing  layer directly over where the inner reservoir  is located). The stages in which the growth of the myc. is in is a big one.. which is also entwined with when you birthed the cakes. If you birth the cake before Pinning  starts invitro , longer periods of evaporation need to be taken into consideration before the cake starts Pinning , which can be upwards of a week or more. But then entwined with that is the RH  of the air that you are exchanging when doing your FAE's. So lets say you are in a climate where in the winter the RH  is very low and the air is dry... when you do your FAE's in that climate, more evaporation is going to take place from your cakes and Perlite ; whereas, if you are doing your FAE's in a climate where the RH  is high (the summer months anywhere), then less evaporation after exchanging your new air is going to occur and that balance on that "point" will remain steady with little fluctuation so less water will need to be replaced. Even if you are in a low RH  environment, a small amount of water will need to be replaced as there is little growth in the way of pins which results in little need for the cake to tap into it's reserve within it's structure. Even during the Pinning  stage, small amounts of water are used in pin formation (more than before pin formation but not much). This can be seen in how dense the pins are.

Myc. is going to produce its pins at a point on the cake where four factors come together in the best ratio for optimal fruit development through spore dispersal: nutrients, air, water, and structure. This is why Pinning  on the edges are a preferred place for myc. in a overlayed casing  or normal casing  or on a cake, where the DEC  and myc. meet. (thanks Golly ). This is why you want to keep your DEC  nice and moist during the pinnig stage... this signals the cake that this is a good spot to grow a whole shit load of mushies.. and if the cake is nice and healthy and not struggling in any way, it'll put out a nice pinset and see all, if not most of those pins to maturation. But in order to see all those pins mature, another step should be taken.

This is where larger amounts of water can be added safely to the cakes' casing.. Right after pin maturity (right before the caps starts breaking away from the stem), the cake is getting ready to use A LOT of it's water reserve. This is because it is using this water to inflate and elongate the cells in it's fruitbodies... not to say that tissue gain in the fruits is completely stopped but certainly slowed as water inflates the mushrooms. This is (ime) why the growth of mushrooms happens so rapidly after pin maturation. So it's during mid fruiting  that water should or can be added to the casing  layer so that the cake can easily use this new water through absorption by gravity and inner reservoir . This will permit more of those mature pins to go on to mature sporulating fruit-bodies. This watering can also keep the water retained in the cake high in volume if it's replaced as the cake used it during pin maturation. once the cake is fully mature.. the cake will still be heavy and therefore all that is needed is a bleach  dip  and a new pasteurized casing  layer to be added and once again soaked (minus the third day of flush  soak, it's unneeded and possibly harmful to your cakes--- but should be taken into consideration by how hydrated your cakes are if it should be done or not) to bring the cake back to that "point". But a Dunk  is never a bad idea... just other ways to go at it. And some strains prefer dryer conditions than others so you really should play around with it... find your own way of doing things.. keep track of what you do and your results... And if you do decide to experiment, don't put all your eggs in one basket, so to speak.

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Examples from fahts gallery.







Head over to his gallery for many more.

.........................................

*As far as will the mushrooms ever make it through the mound on top. It just depends on if they feel like it or not. they definitely can.

*It's just the same as a top layer on a bulk substrate In a tub.



*There are mounds on all of those cakes you see in my pictures.

*However it is pretty common for PF cakes to grow out the sides just as much as the top.. it depends on the micro environment and where the mushrooms are best suited to grow.. faht goes over this in the write up above.

*The main difference between just misting your cakes on top and having the mound is the mound acts as a reservoir. Same as a bulk substrate.

*You'll mist  less because it holds the water and the cake draws from it from both ends as needed until there's none left.

Scemilope said:

Some MS Apollo (albino cube) cakes soaked and cased in mounds of coir/verm. The water tub has air stones and a fogger.
I have a good feeling about this batch.

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neuroshaman said:

This has been a very helpful read through. I'm on my first grow ever and just put my first 5 bluey Vuitton cakes into the water tub yesterday after a 24 hour dunk. I let them consolidate for 8 days after the half pint jars were fully colonized

The cakes were rolled in dry verm (not coir) before being put into the water tub. I am leaving the tub lid just lightly cracked for FAE although I know there are many conflicting opinions on FAE.


I have a 12/12 light cycle going and gave the cakes a light mist from above the open tub around the 12 and 24 hour mark (not sure if this was overkill so early on). It is winter and dry so I was a little concerned about the cakes drying out but am also cognizant that maybe I should just leave it the fuck alone for a bit here now.

Slightly blurry pic of of the cakes from above the water tub:



Obviously there is no one size fits all but anything in particular you all think I should keep in mind over this next day or 2?

I have 7 GT cakes that will be ready to birth later this week so I'm trying to learn as much as I can from any mistakes I make this first go around.

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Sounds like you're on the right track. If your cakes went through a 24-hour dunk and haven't fruited yet..

they should be good and hydrated.. I wouldn't worry about misting.

Wait till the mycelium starts to colonize more of the cake and gets nice and fluffy.. then you can start giving some fine Mist as needed.

You'll be able to see whether it's got a bunch of small little droplets on it or not at that point.

And if it doesn't then you'll want to go ahead and give it some.

neuroshaman said:

This has been a very helpful read through. I'm on my first grow ever and just put my first 5 bluey Vuitton cakes into the water tub yesterday after a 24 hour dunk. I let them consolidate for 8 days after the half pint jars were fully colonized

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It's good practice. I also wait about a week after full colonization before taking the cakes out of the jars.

Quote:

The cakes were rolled in dry verm (not coir) before being put into the water tub. I am leaving the tub lid just lightly cracked for FAE although I know there are many conflicting opinions on FAE.

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FAE once/twice a day is simply good practice and maybe even a bit of a ritual to check that everything is okay For my experience, verm is good for rolling. I do the same.

Quote:

I have a 12/12 light cycle going and gave the cakes a light mist from above the open tub around the 12 and 24 hour mark (not sure if this was overkill so early on). It is winter and dry so I was a little concerned about the cakes drying out but am also cognizant that maybe I should just leave it the fuck alone for a bit here now.

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With misting it is often the case that you don't need to do it at all, although it is good to have a mister to use when needed: at the beginning, if any parts of the substrate are dry (in this case, the vermiculite is dry, so you can spray a little at the beginning), and when you see that there is no or very little condensation on the walls of the container or box (for me, this is a sign that there is poor condensation and you can help a little). Once a day is enough. And observe - if you see that there is already a lot of condensation on the walls, or that the cakes are simply moist enough, then spraying does not make much sense. And once it starts pinning, only spray the walls, not the cakes.

Quote:

I have 7 GT cakes that will be ready to birth later this week so I'm trying to learn as much as I can from any mistakes I make this first go around.

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Good practice

flapping_bird said:

Hey neuro - I like that tray that's in your water tub...did you buy that separate or as a set with the tub. Gotta keep my eye out for one like that. Perfect! Good luck with your grow!

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It's actually the bottom of a vegetable crisper that I found in a drawer that I never use but it is serving well for my grow

Here are two pics from this morning. I think I see some initial pins on top coming through? Or at the very least some individual clumps of myc on top of the cakes that weren't visible when I checked ~18 hours ago. Also doesn't look like too much condensation in the tub. Think a little mist would be good at this stage?




Thanks so much to everyone for your feedback! I'm excited but also trying not to overthink it

flapping_bird said:

oh - and for misting, if you don't have an ultrafine mist spray bottle, those are a good thing to purchase. About $6; the mist is gentle enough to not blow chunks of verm off your cakes. So if you have a "regular" old-style spray bottle, just try to mist indirectly/gently so you're not hitting it with too powerful a blast of water. Think gentle fog in a forest vs firehose.

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flapping_bird said:

oh - and for misting, if you don't have an ultrafine mist spray bottle, those are a good thing to purchase. About $6; the mist is gentle enough to not blow chunks of verm off your cakes. So if you have a "regular" old-style spray bottle, just try to mist indirectly/gently so you're not hitting it with too powerful a blast of water. Think gentle fog in a forest vs firehose.

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I use these barber bottles instead of the common ones you see. 



The barber bottles is the short one with black top.    And is ultra fine mist as well.

And my experience they seem to be made better.. Meaning the pump mechanism doesn't fail and break on you As quick.

I've had some of those bottles only last like a week before they break. But these little Barber bottles have already lasted more than a month without any issues.

flapping_bird said:

If you're near a walmart, they've always got 'em in stock.

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neuroshaman said:

Checked on the cakes and feel like maybe I'm seeing the beginning of primordia forming through the verm? Or maybe just wishful thinking but either way definitely more myc showing than when I checked yesterday.



Been about 72 hours since I put them in the water tub now

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Looking good neuro!

My Apollo are peeking through as well.

neuroshaman said:

Trying my best to be patient and temper expectations because I know it can take a while for pinning to start.

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Peleus said:

Could we also add Rev's pristine brf tek to the OP? Feels like it belongs there.

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In fact I thought I already did. Thanks for the reminder. Give me a sec and it'll be there.

Blizzloo said:

What you all think about additives to the standard BRF mixture? I read that people add coffee grounds. I used to add blended straw myself, but that was years ago and I don't really remember if there was much difference.

Also once, while preparing the PFTek I noticed that I had almost no rice left, but I did have dried peas, so I ground them into flour and made GreenPeasFluor Mix, and I must admit that the result was very good, comparable to rice.

The only thing that was unpleasant about the peas was the smell—when mixing and pasteurizing them

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I feel like I remember reading someone saying that adding coffee grounds is more likely to produce contamination than to actually help a grow...but as most things with this hobby I'm sure you will get other people vehemently saying the opposite

tultedspoon said:

Yes please keep us updated. The waiting part really sucks. I think I didn't consolidate long enough when I originally tried my water tub, but also my chamber was very big. Waiting for pins is the worst and most boring part about mushrooms. Hopefully with more experience I can do everything possible to shorten this time.

Right now I am just trying to fruit from jars trying to figure out surface conditions and humidity, GE and FAE, before trying any more water tub setups. I figure it should give me some cushion by keeping the cakes in the jars. If things go well I may stick with keeping things in jars because so far it has been so much less of a hassle and more tidy.

I'm trying to stick with "on the dry side rather than too wet" but the delitray that made my biggest shroom was pretty wet and shitty, so I don't know if it wasn't as wet would I have gotten more? Or was it because it was that wet that I was able to get a shroom (and because it was so shitty, I only got 1 instead of more). More time needed to tell unfortunately.

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Still no pinning on my 5 BV cakes that I birthed 9 days ago. It's dry here and I think I may have been cracking my tub too much. So I've reverted to just misting once in the morning and closing the lid. However, I'm not latching the lid so I think they are still getting some FAE and the tub seems to be staying much more humid this way.

Here are my cakes this morning:

Anything you all think I should be doing differently? Or do I just need to stay the course and be patient?

My 7 GT cakes are on day 3 in the water tub and I am trying to take a similar course of action with them but didn't take a pic this morning. They're still mostly covered in verm but starting to see some myc poking through

Agar Wedge said:

Stay the course friend they're looking good, sounds like you are doing everything right.

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flapping_bird said:

As Tom Petty sings it, “oh the way-aye-ting is the hardest parrrrt….”

Doing fine, @neuroshaman - this part of the growing sucks for me, because I want to basically will the pins into existence, but they take their own sweet time showing up. Best of luck as it moves slowly along!

A good time to line  up a dehydrator and maybe a mason jar for storage for use once the fruits finally show up!

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I appreciate it!

And I am all set with a dehydrator, quart mason jars, desiccants, a mason jar vacuum sealer and even a neat harvesting knife I found online (that could also be used for foraging). I am trying to manifest this thing as much as possible Plus I plan to stick with this hobby so may as well have the tools of the trade