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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists
#2944680 - 07/30/04 12:39 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Blunkett told: treat animal rights extremists as terrorists One of Britain's leading research scientists yesterday urged David Blunkett to treat extremist animal rights protesters "like the terrorists they are". Speaking before the Home Secretary announces legislation today to protect scientists from militant activists Tipu Aziz, a neurosurgeon at Oxford University, said it would be a national disaster if a laboratory for scientific research there was not built because of demonstrations. "This is a statement of the faith of British people and the British Government in the scientific community," he said. "If it doesn't get built it will be proof that an extremist handful of people can disrupt everything." Since the proposed primate research laboratory in Cambridge was shelved due to activist threats, the Oxford site has become the rallying point for sustained anti-vivisection marches and demonstrators. Work on the laboratory, which is due to be finished in 2005, has ground to a halt because of the protests. Yesterday the cranes stood idle at the half-finished building after the Montpellier Group pulled out of the ?18 million project last week. Directors of the building contractor had been targeted and threatened, while shareholders were told to sell their stock in the group or face exposure on the internet. Subsequently, RMC, the concrete supplier to the site, also pulled out after vehicles' brakes were sabotaged and equipment destroyed. The only signs of activity yesterday were 20 protesters standing outside the building, watched by two policemen. They held banners urging passers-by to help "stop the Oxford animal lab now". Several passing cars sounded their horns in support. Carol Hart, one of the activists, said she often took time off work to protest outside the laboratory. "It's something I feel very strongly about. I care about animals, but I care about people too." She said she was not worried by the new laws that Mr Blunkett was due to announce. "The Government is just trying to attract attention away from the real issue," she said. "They aren't really worried about medical research, they are worried about lack of investment. We're not terrorists. The Government is just worried that the public will support us. It doesn't want a public debate on the matter." Mr Aziz divides his time between operating on patients with Parkinson's disease and conducting research with primates into new cures for neurodegenerative disorders. He said: "I can understand people being against animal testing, but most people do not resort to violence. I would have the Government label extremists as the terrorists they are. I don't see any difference between them and political terrorists. They should deal with them in the same way as the IRA or al-Qa'eda." A researcher into animal welfare, who did not want to be named, said it was difficult to see how new legislation would help. "Tightening it up is great, but when you're dealing with terrorists they will still go ahead and then if they are arrested they will become martyrs to the cause." She said that the answer to the problem lay in educating the public about the research that went into the drugs they took for granted. She suggested that drug companies wrote 'this product was tested on animals' on pill boxes to ram the point home. David Holmes, the registrar of Oxford University, said yesterday that it was determined that the laboratory would be built, despite the set-backs. "We fully intend to complete on schedule," he said. "Though we respect the rights of individuals to engage in peaceful protest we cannot condone any unlawful acts such as intimidation, harassment or violence." ------------------------------------------------------------- Personally, I'm fuming about this. Blunkett is a twat. What are your views on animals testing? A necessary evil or pointless brutality?
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
Edited by rogue_pixie (07/30/04 12:39 PM)
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Tao
Village Genius

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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2944740 - 07/30/04 12:46 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well just watch 28 days later--we're one animal activist attack away from armageddon.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2944966 - 07/30/04 01:34 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Ecoterrorism is a real problem. I consider myself an environmentalist, and I think most environmentalists are rational, decent people, but there are extremists out there who will put other people's lives at risk to save an acre of forest. I've heard of one group putting pieces of metal inside trees so that when the loggers use the chainsaw on it, it bounces back and hits them. I would consider this terrorism.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: silversoul7]
#2944993 - 07/30/04 01:42 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think we should use scientists who carry out these vile experiements and politicians as test subjects.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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barfightlard
tales of theinexpressible



Registered: 01/29/03
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945034 - 07/30/04 01:52 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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agreed
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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks
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Aneglakya
mephiticconjurator

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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: barfightlard]
#2945053 - 07/30/04 01:56 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945069 - 07/30/04 02:00 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
rogue_pixie said: I think we should use scientists who carry out these vile experiements and politicians as test subjects.
How about those that are opposed to animal research that is working to save human lives volunteer to be the first test subjects?
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!


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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945074 - 07/30/04 02:02 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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so you support death threats and mechanical sabotage as a way of protesting?
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America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Evolving]
#2945110 - 07/30/04 02:09 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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The fact is animal research is pointless and cruel. Animals are completely different, with different psychology and physiology. There have been many cases where products tested on animals that have been regarded as safe have gone on to cause devastating affects on human babies, causing all kinds of horrific mutations. It is not a reliable method of research and it is holding science back whilst causing mass unnecessary suffering.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Innvertigo]
#2945119 - 07/30/04 02:11 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I support peaceful protesting but even that is being restricted now i.e. it's being made illegal to protest outside scientists houses etc.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945126 - 07/30/04 02:12 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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So would you prefer they just not test products at all, and let potentially dangerous products go on the market without knowing what they do?
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: silversoul7]
#2945139 - 07/30/04 02:15 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Products tested on animals are potentially dangerous anyway. Fact is - they aren't reliable because they are completely different.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!


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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945147 - 07/30/04 02:16 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I support peaceful protesting but even that is being restricted now
that doesn't sound like a peaceful protest nor an attempt to even try. I'd say they were vandals and if someone died/hurt from their actions they should be considered murderers and/or urban terrorists.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945162 - 07/30/04 02:19 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Products tested on animals are potentially dangerous anyway. Fact is - they aren't reliable because they are completely different.
I realize you think money is the root of all evil and everything, so I don't suppose you'll mind giving a shitload of it up. I'd be willing to lay any amount of money down that I can find at least five instances of testing on animals preventing dangerous products from reaching the human marketplace. Sound good?
-------------------- ?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.? -Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Innvertigo]
#2945167 - 07/30/04 02:20 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Haha, I wouldn't mind if the odd scientist got caught in the blaze. 
Seriously, I said that I support peaceful protesting i.e. standing with banners and going on marches.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!


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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945176 - 07/30/04 02:22 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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do you support those protesters in that article then?
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America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Ancalagon]
#2945181 - 07/30/04 02:23 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't have any money to give up anyway!
I realise there are instances where we have been lucky but there are countless instances where animal testing has proved of absolute no use when used on human beings.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Innvertigo]
#2945197 - 07/30/04 02:27 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm a pacifist, which means I don't believe in using violence no matter what the circumstance, so no I don't support them. But I can see why some activists do it. Animals testing sickens me.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!


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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945214 - 07/30/04 02:30 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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fair enough.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Tao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945448 - 07/30/04 03:29 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
The fact is animal research is pointless and cruel. Animals are completely different, with different psychology and physiology.
I'm sorry, but that's the biggest line of bullshit i've read in a while on these boards.
Simple fact: why would these 'evil corporations' whose only goal is to earn money, waste money on animal research if it served no purpose?
I'm going to take a wild shot in the dark and guess that you don't have a large background in biological sciences. Don't make outrageous claims about which you obviously know very little.
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945453 - 07/30/04 03:30 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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If animal research is pointless, I'm sure that greedy producers of medicines and medical procedures wouldn't waste their time on such research. Contrary to your knee jerk emotional reaction, much animal research is beneficial and has helped save countless human lives.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Zahid
Stranger
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945456 - 07/30/04 03:31 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Has anyone seen 28 Days Later?
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Tao]
#2945472 - 07/30/04 03:32 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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First, the methodical use of animals in biomedical research has been going on for over 100 years, and it has dramatically increased since the late 1940s. If, in fact, animal research were the all-important ray of hope that defenders say it is, shouldn't we be seeing more evidence of this today? Literally billions of animals have suffered and died, allegedly to save the lives of humans and to make those lives more livable, yet the majority of deadly diseases are still going strong, wreaking havoc all around us. Cancers, heart and lung diseases, diabetes, cystic fibrosis, multiple sclerosis, muscular dystrophy, etc. How can a method that has failed so miserably be considered such a vital link to success?
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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Tao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945487 - 07/30/04 03:36 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
rogue_pixie said: First, the methodical use of animals in biomedical research has been going on for over 100 years, and it has dramatically increased since the late 1940s. If, in fact, animal research were the all-important ray of hope that defenders say it is, shouldn't we be seeing more evidence of this today? Literally billions of animals have suffered and died, allegedly to save the lives of humans and to make those lives more livable, yet the majority of deadly diseases are still going strong, wreaking havoc all around us. Cancers, heart and lung diseases, diabetes, cystic fibrosis, multiple sclerosis, muscular dystrophy, etc. How can a method that has failed so miserably be considered such a vital link to success?
Of course! Life expectancy is at an all time low in human history I believe. I've never heard of a vaccination preventing a disease or a medicine helping cure one.
/sarcasm
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Tao]
#2945500 - 07/30/04 03:40 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit y'know.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Tao]
#2945505 - 07/30/04 03:41 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Damn, you beat me to it.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Tao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Evolving]
#2945508 - 07/30/04 03:42 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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And I beat Zahid
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Tao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945512 - 07/30/04 03:44 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
yet the majority of deadly diseases are still going strong
???? What the hell are you talking about?
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Evolving]
#2945525 - 07/30/04 03:48 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Animal research is inherently unethical, inevitably wasteful, and wholly unreliable. The U.S. alone squanders billions per year on animal experiments, much of which is funded by taxpayers, even though alternatives are less expensive and can be used repeatedly. And what do we get for our money? Too much suffering for too little knowledge.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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Tao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945539 - 07/30/04 03:52 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
rogue_pixie said: Animal research is inherently unethical, inevitably wasteful, and wholly unreliable. The U.S. alone squanders billions per year on animal experiments, much of which is funded by taxpayers, even though alternatives are less expensive and can be used repeatedly. And what do we get for our money? Too much suffering for too little knowledge.
Please try to follow this rule at least once:
Quote:
Political Forum Rules:
2) Although not always possible, when quoting a source please provide a link.
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945544 - 07/30/04 03:54 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
rogue_pixie said: Animal research is inherently unethical,
Not if your ethics involve saving human lives.
Quote:
... inevitably wasteful, and wholly unreliable.
Then WHY do greedy people 'waste' their money on it?
Quote:
... even though alternatives are less expensive and can be used repeatedly.
If you're so smart, why don't you start a pharmaceutical company or a medical device company that can do it cheaper and better without animals. Again, why don't theses 'greedy' people do it your way if it's better? Your unfounded assertions are getting tiresome. What is your background in biology and medical technology?
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
Edited by Evolving (07/30/04 03:56 PM)
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Tao]
#2945547 - 07/30/04 03:55 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't follow rules, I'm an anarchist
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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Tao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Evolving]
#2945548 - 07/30/04 03:55 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
You unfounded assertions are getting tiresome. What is your background in biology and medical technology?
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Tao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945551 - 07/30/04 03:57 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
rogue_pixie said: I don't follow rules, I'm an anarchist
Clearly not even the basic rules of logic...
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Evolving]
#2945555 - 07/30/04 03:58 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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My background is absolutely irrelevant.
I'd like to see people like you used as test subjects though
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Tao]
#2945561 - 07/30/04 03:58 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Logic is over rated.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945575 - 07/30/04 04:02 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Go to your room
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945578 - 07/30/04 04:02 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
rogue_pixie said: My background is absolutely irrelevant.
It's quite relevant seeing as you are making assertions with nothing to back them up.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Evolving]
#2945588 - 07/30/04 04:04 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Go and stuff your face with dead cow.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945591 - 07/30/04 04:04 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
rogue_pixie said: Logic is over rated.
A rationalization from one who is unable to master it. AKA: 'sour grapes.'
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945596 - 07/30/04 04:06 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
rogue_pixie said: Go and stuff your face with dead cow.
I already did this morning. I plan on eating dead pig for dinner.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Evolving]
#2945612 - 07/30/04 04:09 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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"Logic: and instrument used for bolshering and prejudice"
Rings true.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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DeepDish2
journeyman
Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 55
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945614 - 07/30/04 04:10 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Animal research is inherently unethical, inevitably wasteful, and wholly unreliable. The U.S. alone squanders billions per year on animal experiments, much of which is funded by taxpayers, even though alternatives are less expensive and can be used repeatedly. And what do we get for our money? Too much suffering for too little knowledge.
99% of the animals killed in the United States do not die in research, rather they are slaughtered to provide food. The meat industry, however, presents a difficult target for activists do to their large budgets and strong political ties. This causes most animal rights activists to go after "cruel" animal researchers as they generally have less security and less money for legal battles. As someone who has researched on animals before (European Starlings) I can tell you it is a difficult process to get research permits for any animal more developed than a rat. To say we get little knowledge from animal experiments is both uneducated and unsubstantiated. A great amount of knowledge can be garnered from animal experiments. Don't take my word on it, PM me and I can link you to hundreds of papers involving animal research, from prefection of surgical techniques, to gaining a better understanding of how the endocrine system works. So if you want to be a real animal activist, first make sure you are vegan, then get out and convince others to be vegetarian, and finally lobby the meat industry for more sanitary conditions.
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Evolving]
#2945616 - 07/30/04 04:10 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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No wonder you're all pro - animal slaughtering.
Murderer.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: DeepDish2]
#2945624 - 07/30/04 04:13 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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How dare you try telling me what to do. I know all about the meat industry thanks. PM me and I shall link you to many papers proving that animals research is POINTLESS and potentially DANGEROUS. I don't care if you've been in the industry - as far as I'm concerened that makes you even more blind.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945633 - 07/30/04 04:17 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
rogue_pixie said: "Logic: and instrument used for bolshering and prejudice"
Rings true.
It seems you don't even know the meaning of the word, no wonder why your are so hostile to it's usage. Here, this should help alleviate your ignorance.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945644 - 07/30/04 04:20 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
rogue_pixie said: No wonder you're all pro - animal slaughtering. Murderer.
I like my steaks just a little charred on the outside. When I slice into the flesh with a sharp knife, I love to see the blood fill the bottom of my plate. Then I soak it up with bread, put the dripping bread in my mouth and suck the blood out with delight.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Evolving]
#2945645 - 07/30/04 04:21 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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So you think I'm ignorant just because I don't agree with you. Right. Bye.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Evolving]
#2945652 - 07/30/04 04:23 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Har har, how did I guess that was coming. You're just showing yourself up to be even more childish and immature.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945663 - 07/30/04 04:27 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I, for one, think you're ignorant because of the things you write.
How do anarchists resolve conflicts among themselves?
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: zappaisgod]
#2945668 - 07/30/04 04:29 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I've answered in the other topic.
Yes, brandish me ignorant because you don't agree with me.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945671 - 07/30/04 04:31 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Once again, that's not why. For instance I disagree often with Evolving, but I don't think he is ignorant. "Brandish" is not the right word here. That didn't help.
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: zappaisgod]
#2945681 - 07/30/04 04:35 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't give a hoot what YOU think.
Go suck an egg.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945687 - 07/30/04 04:36 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
rogue_pixie said: So you think I'm ignorant just because I don't agree with you.
No, you display ignorance by being unable to back up your assertions and showing a disdain for rational thought. I am quite willing to consider that animal research is replaceable with other techniques should you be able to present facts and discuss the matter rationally.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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DeepDish2
journeyman
Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 55
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945690 - 07/30/04 04:37 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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How dare you try telling me what to do.
Telling you what to do? I was only pointing out that most animal rights activists are misguided when they focus all their attention on researchers.
I don't care if you've been in the industry - as far as I'm concerened that makes you even more blind.
The industry? What industry are you talking about here, and how does my experiance with animal research make me more blind? It seems the only way to "not be blind" is to agree with your uninformed assertations. Yes I think I have a good understanding of how the use of animals has benifited the scientific community. Just because you have links from an activist website that says animal research is unessecary hardly negates the fact that significant progress has been made due to animals.
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945691 - 07/30/04 04:37 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
rogue_pixie said: Go suck an egg.
A fertilized, viable egg?
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: DeepDish2]
#2945704 - 07/30/04 04:41 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I was referring to you saying I should be vegan then go preach to others trying to convert them into being vegetarian. *laughs*
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Evolving]
#2945708 - 07/30/04 04:42 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Those eggs are lumpy. Yeccchhh.
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Evolving]
#2945710 - 07/30/04 04:42 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Being unable to conform to YOUR idea of rational thought you mean.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945714 - 07/30/04 04:43 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well then, please tell us yours.
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: zappaisgod]
#2945745 - 07/30/04 04:53 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Careful, I think were dealing with some sort of lunar related cycles here.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2945816 - 07/30/04 05:13 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I would like to point out that property destruction is non violent, and that the "animal rights extremists" you are probably talking about like the Animal Liberation Front are explicitly non-violent. The term terrorist is thrown around in the most ludicrous of ways. Essentially, the way it is used, it means that anyone who actually directly takes thier ethics into thier own hands and steps outside of the status quo in order to protect something that is sacred to them is a terrorist.
The state and the media are calling people like these terrorists because they are a direct and real threat to the powers that continue to reap rewards for brutalizing and tormenting any number of other living beings (be they human or otherwise.)
Someone mentioned the tactic of tree spiking. For me, that is a pretty serious tactic that has to be thoroughly considered, and yes there are occasions and methods of doing it which will hrut the logger but most responsible eco-saboteurs will use methods that are intended to damage the saw-mill machinery as opposed to hurting the logger. Also something like treespiking is usually a tactic that is done when other tactics have failed. It's generally not a first step. Sabotage is not violent, since as far as I'm concerned my definition of violence is harming a living thing. Unless you consider a piece of machinery more valuable than real lives, you've gotta understand that point.
I really urge people to actually do thier research and try to understand where these so called "terrorists" are coming from before writing them off as crazy motherfuckers. A lot of radicals have tried and given up on indirect approaches because they fail so many damn times. If anyone wants to be hooked up with some real information on this subject please feel free to ask me for some links. I don't expect people to suddenly become anarchists or radicals because my logic is sound, but it would be nice if people were more willing to actually look into and attempt to understand how us radicals got to the conclusions we got to and not jump to the terrorist card because you're afraid of being associated with a reviled group.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: NiamhNyx]
#2945832 - 07/30/04 05:18 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Property destruction is most certainly violent. "Safe in our homes and persons." Do not fuck with me or mine. Trust me you will be much the worse for it.
You're right, "terrorist" is most certainly tossed around a bit too lightly. Mostly, they are common criminals.
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: zappaisgod]
#2945837 - 07/30/04 05:20 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Agreed. You seriously don't consider me turning your house into an inferno 'violent'?
-------------------- ?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.? -Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: NiamhNyx]
#2945881 - 07/30/04 05:31 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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A friend of mine was riding his motorcycle through a desert wash with his father-in-law and a friend of his father-in-law. The friend was in the lead, my friend was in the back. Some asshole(s) strung a metal wire across the wash about neck high. The front rider was decapitated, the second rider tried to lay his bike down and had his shoulder sliced open by the wire, fortunately my friend had time to avoid the wire totally. Fuck the environmental extremists, if they dislike humanity so much they should all off themselves. I'll provide the ammo.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Evolving]
#2946013 - 07/30/04 06:16 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Evolving, what makes you think it was eco-radicals that but a wire across the road? I can't think of too many reasons anyone would do that.
Also, if eco-sabotage is "violent" what about the police state we live in, what about vivsection, what about strip mining and clearcutting? What about the National Guard who were ready to snipe anyone who jumped the fence into the "hard zone" at the democratic national convention, Terror is being surrounded by city, state, federal, riot cops, military personnel, the national guard, horse cops, motorcycle cops and helicopters when you are having a bazzar in a park at which there are musicians playing, people fixing bikes and people trading stuff like zines and patches, for the afternoon, as an expression of the fact that we don't have to spend life in the death sentence of capitalism. This just happed in Boston. This is happening everywhere. It isn't being changed by petitions and chants, it isn't being changed by legal challenges to the constitution or anything of that nature.
What will change it? I'm more inclined to believe that actively dismantling things that are extremely disgraceful, violent and terrifying is more likely to have an effect than asking, then pleading, then giving up when those tactics prove themselves to be innefectual. (While at the same time building the kind of communities we really feel drawn towards based on egalitarian relationships, mutual aid, love and consideration for all other lives.)
Ancalagon, what would be the aim of burning my house to the ground, as opposed to blockading a clearcut site and deflagging it, as opposed to breaking into Huntingdon Life Sciences and liberating animals who are having thier vocal cords slit so they can't scream as they are tortured? Sabotage isn't something anyone takes lightly. It has a very specific and very direct purpose. It is rarely ever intended to be a risk to the personal safety of any life, although it is often intended to cause economic damage to the monsters who use that money to fund genocide.
That isn't to say that all saboteurs plan things out flawlessly. Sometimes people make mistakes, but I can say for a fact that neither the ALF nor the ELF has ever hurt a human being. Ever. They have however inflicted economic damage on companies that commit atrocities every single day. People that chose this form of action are not stupid, or impulsive. They are generally intelligent and extremely well informed. They are generally compassionate, loving and passionate human beings that are simply incapable of ignoring reality and medicating the world away. They are people that can't sit down anymore and feel an ethical imperative to act in the most effective way despite the personal risk.
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: NiamhNyx]
#2946042 - 07/30/04 06:29 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said: Evolving, what makes you think it was eco-radicals that but a wire across the road? I can't think of too many reasons anyone would do that.
It wasn't a road, it was a desert wash. There is only one reason anyone would do that, to harm people riding mortorcycles in the wash. The forest service told them the only plausible explanation was enviro-nuts who don't want people riding their motorcycles in the desert. The same asshole mentality that consumes people who drive spikes into trees to harm people using chain saws.
Quote:
Also, if eco-sabotage is "violent" what about the police state we live in...
Ah, the old two wrongs make a right rationalization. Sorry, that's bullshit.
I also like how these dummies vandalized a mink farm, freeing a bunch of minks. Then the minks went and devasted the local waterfowl population. Brilliant!
Or how about the moronic actions in San Diego, torching a bunch of autos at a dealership? The heat from the flames melted windows on nearby homes, the pollution generated was more than the autos would have created in their lifetimes of driving. Another brilliant move...
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Evolving]
#2946343 - 07/30/04 08:35 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm not talking about two wrongs making a right. I'm talking about am individual or group of individuals figuring out what is going on in the world and directly responding to it in a manner that they feel will have some direct results and actually make some amount of difference in the world. Perhaps not every action is as fully successful as is intended... but how about the many times sabotaging logging machinery deflagging a future logging site, and setting up a road block has threatened the operation sufficiently enough that the block of land is abandoned, and left to the wilds?
What about the difference liberating a bunch of caged factory farmed chickens and bringing them to a country side location - in which they are free to roam and eat bugs and weeds and basically be chickens- makes on the lives of those creatures.
Chosing to do any sort of action defintly should require a whole lot of consideration of what the methods and goals are, and what the possible outcomes could be, and I'm not saying that every single action is going to be a sweeping success, but to say that the tactic is wrong, that only crazy terrorists or raging idiots would chose such methods is absolutely ludicrous.
I just noticed the quote you have as your signature, Evolving, and totally agree with it. The radicals we're discussing generally realize the same damn thing and are therefore stepping outside of the same old tactics of the mainstream political game and actually accomplish some real differences in some very real lives. The radical community is definitly up for some criticism, and there is definitly a lot of self-criticism happening. Figuring out how to fight this monster of a system and it's many symptoms of pathology is daunting, and there are many directions which may be taken, but to immediately write off an entire tactical option in such a complete way is really fucking ridiculous as far as I'm concerned.
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: NiamhNyx]
#2946849 - 07/30/04 11:35 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said: ... how about the many times sabotaging logging machinery
The actions of assholes, destroying jobs and property.
Quote:
What about the difference liberating a bunch of caged factory farmed chickens and bringing them to a country side location...
The actions of assholes stealing property and destroying jobs.
Quote:
... but to say that the tactic is wrong, that only crazy terrorists or raging idiots would chose such methods is absolutely ludicrous.
Only ludicrous to people who are moral relativists, who have lost all perspective and have no consideration for their fellow humans.
Quote:
... to immediately write off an entire tactical option in such a complete way is really fucking ridiculous as far as I'm concerned.
Sorry if it disturbs you that some people have a sense of right and wrong and put the well being of those of their own species above that of other animals - but guess what, that is the way of nature. Maybe in your perverted fantasy world, destroying people's livelihoods is the answer to the ills of society, but you are wrong - dead wrong. People like those that you champion should be locked up in cages with the Unabomber and others of their psychotic ilk. If a victim or a cop shoots one of those sons of a bitches in their acts of criminality, I will rejoice in the justice of the act.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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st0nedphucker
Rogue State

Registered: 04/17/03
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2947583 - 07/31/04 06:11 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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"The great kidney transplant pioneer Dr. Thomas E. Starzl was once asked why he used dogs in his work. He explained that, in his first series of operations, he had transplanted kidneys into a number of subjects, and that the majority of them died. After figuring out what had enabled a few to survive, he revised his techniques and operated on a similar group of subjects; a majority of them survived. In his third group of subjects, only one or two died, and in his fourth group, all survived. The important point, said Starzl, was that the first three groups of subjects were dogs; the fourth group consisted of human babies. Had Starzl begun his series of experimental operations on people, he would have killed at least 15 people. Yet there are activists who believe, in the name of animal rights, that that is what Starzl should have done."
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: st0nedphucker]
#2947599 - 07/31/04 06:34 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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But would the right-wingers support animal experimentation if they knew it was being used to save people on welfare and single moms?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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retread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2947991 - 07/31/04 09:47 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
rogue_pixie said: The fact is animal research is pointless and cruel. Animals are completely different, with different psychology and physiology. There have been many cases where products tested on animals that have been regarded as safe have gone on to cause devastating affects on human babies, causing all kinds of horrific mutations. It is not a reliable method of research and it is holding science back whilst causing mass unnecessary suffering.
People who don't know what they are talking about always seem to have the most extreme views, and the loudest voices. If you'd like, I could compile a list of medical procedures that were tested on animals first and have now gone on to save thousands of human lives, or new medicines, vaccines, etc.
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Xlea321]
#2948004 - 07/31/04 09:53 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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LMAO
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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retread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: NiamhNyx]
#2948005 - 07/31/04 09:54 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm proud of NiamhNyx for her response. She is the only one that is actually addressing the issue of the term terrorist being applied to these demonstrators. I think that the more intellectual of us realize that rogue_pixie is just operating on a "But I wuv de cute wittle fuzzy bunnie" level, rather than a level of educated, mature discussion, so I'd say that we all just ignore him/her until they can mature enough to be a part of the discussion.
If these people are using threats of violence or actual violence to further their political goals, they are terrorists.
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: retread]
#2948045 - 07/31/04 10:17 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I refuse to address someone who has already disregarded me as an idiot "who doesn't know what she's talking about". You are clearly, far more intellectual than I, considering you can look on the internet to find cases where testing on animals has proved effective. Honestly.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?



Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2948114 - 07/31/04 10:43 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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PM me and I shall link you to many papers proving that animals research is POINTLESS and potentially DANGEROUS.
From what I've seen, providing a link is something you are either unwilling or incapable of doing.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: NiamhNyx]
#2948232 - 07/31/04 11:22 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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NiamhNyx said: Evolving, what makes you think it was eco-radicals that but a wire across the road? I can't think of too many reasons anyone would do that.
I have heard of "eco-radicals" doing this to prevent off-roading before. However, without evidence that this was the case, I can't totally believe that they did this either.
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Also, if eco-sabotage is "violent" what about the police state we live in, what about vivsection, what about strip mining and clearcutting?
As bad as I believe strip mining and clearcutting to be, they certainly aren't violent actions against living humans. Do you think that someone who kills 100 pot plants in their set up by harvesting them are commiting acts of violence against nature that is the equivalent of murder?
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What about the National Guard who were ready to snipe anyone who jumped the fence into the "hard zone" at the democratic national convention,
The Catch 22 of fighting terrorism is that they terrorists, in a way, win no matter what you do. The real purpose of terrorism is to cause the government to become more oppressive to their people to prevent attacks thus causing the people to dislike the government. If their had been an attack at the DNC, which was quite unlikely, these guards would have been the first line of defense. If they were not posted and an attack had gone down, the people would be asking why their wasn't enough security. Either way, the Administration looks "bad" to some people.
I snipped a great deal here that dealt with percieved slights that the government was perpetrating among you that somehow seemed to justify the actions of the eco-terrorists. Two wrongs don't make a right.
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-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2948233 - 07/31/04 11:23 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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rogue_pixie said: I refuse to address someone who has already disregarded me as an idiot "who doesn't know what she's talking about". You are clearly, far more intellectual than I, considering you can look on the internet to find cases where testing on animals has proved effective. Honestly.
What?
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-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: NiamhNyx]
#2948259 - 07/31/04 11:31 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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NiamhNyx said: What about the difference liberating a bunch of caged factory farmed chickens and bringing them to a country side location - in which they are free to roam and eat bugs and weeds and basically be chickens- makes on the lives of those creatures.
What about the impact it has on the owner of the poultry farm and his children? What is more important, chickens or people?
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Chosing to do any sort of action defintly should require a whole lot of consideration of what the methods and goals are, and what the possible outcomes could be, and I'm not saying that every single action is going to be a sweeping success, but to say that the tactic is wrong, that only crazy terrorists or raging idiots would chose such methods is absolutely ludicrous.
Sabotaging machinery isn't "terrorism"?
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Figuring out how to fight this monster of a system and it's many symptoms of pathology is daunting, and there are many directions which may be taken, but to immediately write off an entire tactical option in such a complete way is really fucking ridiculous as far as I'm concerned.
Do you think that the way to fight the system is to use the process of informing people and planning a change through legislature and elections, or go against the will of the majority of the people and simply attack what you know to be bad? Thats where my main problem with this whole thing comes in. You can't FORCE the majority of the population to live in a way that you "know" to be good if it is against their will.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: retread]
#2948394 - 07/31/04 12:13 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Clearcutting, strip mining, factory farming.... and any other of these brutal practices we could come up with are violent against HUMANS as well as against animals, plants, ecosystems. You seem to forget that we aren't separate, that when a significant portion of land is decimated it has hazardous effects on the health and function of the entire planet. Take the example of the clearcut in Oregon that caused an entire mountain to slide into a little rural community, destroying houses and killing the parents of several young children.
Strip mining has caused, in countless occassions, water supplies to be totally contaminated. Factory farmed meat is full of horomones that are very bad for our bodies.
I have no desire to negatively impact the livelihood of the working class, far from it. The working class and us damn radicals are not enemies. Take the example of Judi Bari who was both doing environmental direct action AND organizing loggers to fight for better labour conditions, so that when environmentalists blocked them from going to work they'd still get paid. The FBI set off a bomb in her car.
The original union organizers, the ones who attained the 8 hour day, were anarchists and 8 of them were killed after police attacked a dispersing meeting in haymarket square, beating people and then framed the 8 anarchists for throwing a bomb. This is the history of May day. This is the history of the working class. Labour movements arose from workers refusing to submit to the bosses and demanding what they wanted. They did not do this passively, if they had attempted to be pacifists they would have failed utterly. Of course at this point in history most unions have been coopted by the bourgeois union buerocrats who consistantly sell out struggles in order to protect thier own privlege.
We don't need the vast majority of the shit we produce with the resources we rape from the earth. The entire system of labour we've constructed is based upon an abstraction. Most "jobs" are usurious and useless but they exist because hey, jobs are jobs and we have to do something to earn money right? So I guess that also means we have to convince people to desire shit they don't need and probably wouldn't want unless they were conditioned to desire triviality and the temporary distraction from the meaninglessness of the existance we've been conditioned to lead.
This system is a monstrosity of epic proportions. It only survives by taking the labour of the working class and applying it to useless and usurious tasks. This process exploits humans beings, it destroys ecosystems and it's foundation is pathology.
Opposing this in whatever way is most effective, with utter respect, consideration and love for what is truly of value (all living beings, human or otherwise) is immensely important. A bulldozer is a real threat to places that are sacred, to many millions of lives. It is one object responsible for the propgation of continuation of utter insanity. Monkey wrenching it to cause economic damage to a mega corporation and waste the time of a logging operation is hardly fucking terrorism.
I have never attempted to say that two wrongs make a right because monkeywrenching and sabotage are NOT WRONG when they are a useful means of defending life against the machinery of abstraction and exploitation.
As far as I'm concerned terrorism is threatening to injure innocent living beings for political ideology. Threatening the very machinery that is oppressing YOU and all you hold sacred is SELF DEFENCE.
Tactics like sabotage are necessary because not everyone will be swayed by words and those that continue to oppress and murder for power have to be stopped. Is it wrong for a woman who's being raped to punch the rapist in the face?
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-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: NiamhNyx]
#2948652 - 07/31/04 01:15 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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NiamhNyx said: Clearcutting, strip mining, factory farming.... and any other of these brutal practices we could come up with are violent against HUMANS as well as against animals, plants, ecosystems.
Cutting down trees isn't the same as shooting people. What was your answer to my question about harvesting marijuana plants? Thats the same as murder to you, right?
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Take the example of the clearcut in Oregon that caused an entire mountain to slide into a little rural community, destroying houses and killing the parents of several young children.
In that situation, it is entirely possible that other laws or regulations were overlooked.
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Strip mining has caused, in countless occassions, water supplies to be totally contaminated. Factory farmed meat is full of horomones that are very bad for our bodies.
You sound like a politican ranting about drugs. People should be educated about the meat they purchase and then be given a right to choose, not have th "right" decision forced on them by guerilla tactics.
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I have no desire to negatively impact the livelihood of the working class, far from it. The working class and us damn radicals are not enemies. Take the example of Judi Bari who was both doing environmental direct action AND organizing loggers to fight for better labour conditions, so that when environmentalists blocked them from going to work they'd still get paid.
I can't do anything but shake my head.
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The FBI set off a bomb in her car.
I'd like to see some evidence of this, I've never heard of it before.
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I have never attempted to say that two wrongs make a right because monkeywrenching and sabotage are NOT WRONG when they are a useful means of defending life against the machinery of abstraction and exploitation.
How about gassing people? It's "not wrong" to kill executives when it's for a cause that you are totally sure is right, right?
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As far as I'm concerned terrorism is threatening to injure innocent living beings for political ideology. Threatening the very machinery that is oppressing YOU and all you hold sacred is SELF DEFENCE.
Uh-huh.
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Tactics like sabotage are necessary because not everyone will be swayed by words and those that continue to oppress and murder for power have to be stopped. Is it wrong for a woman who's being raped to punch the rapist in the face?
Arguing with you would be like arguing with a KKK member, an Al-queda member, a Weatherman, or any member of any other organization that has convinced themselves that they are always totally right, and that the best way is to use violence. Extremists are pathetic sheep.
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Vvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: retread]
#2948690 - 07/31/04 01:22 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'd like to see some evidence of this, I've never heard of it before.
Yes, the FBI cooperated with many bombings and assassinations of activists. Judi Bari is just one example:
http://www.judibari.org/jury's_message.html#continue
http://www.judibari.org/%60bari_writings_index.html
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-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Vvellum]
#2948726 - 07/31/04 01:30 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I can't find anything about her being murdered by the FBI. Maybe I'm missing something...
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Vvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: retread]
#2948748 - 07/31/04 01:34 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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she wasnt murdered by the FBI (although she almost was). keep reading.
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: retread]
#2948811 - 07/31/04 01:50 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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"Extremists are pathetic sheep."
*laughs out loud*
That's one of the dumbest statements I ever heard.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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Vvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2948830 - 07/31/04 01:54 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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The English Crown considered those pesky revolutionaries extremists and they certainly used violence.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: NiamhNyx]
#2948906 - 07/31/04 02:13 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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NiamhNyx said " so that when environmentalists blocked them from going to work they'd still get paid."
You should be paying rent for a house that was never built.
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-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: zappaisgod]
#2948984 - 07/31/04 02:32 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: NiamhNyx said " so that when environmentalists blocked them from going to work they'd still get paid."
You should be paying rent for a house that was never built.
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist



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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2950342 - 07/31/04 10:39 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I wonder how these eco-terrorists feel about the vivisection of unborn human fetuses.
-------------------- This space for rent
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#2950352 - 07/31/04 10:43 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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They're cool with it.
pinky
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: retread]
#2950369 - 07/31/04 10:48 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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First of all harvesting a crop of pot is not the same as cutting down a forest because its a fucking monoculture crop, you can grow it in your basement and just plant more once you harvest it. An old growth ecosystem is a whole lot more complex, being the unique home for thousands of species. YOu can't just replant a unique ecosystem, it will never be as diverse and as developed as it was before it was destroyed. Do you realize that every day 20 species go extinct? Only a couple decades ago it was 1 species a day and not much early than that it wasn't even 1 a month.... The rate at which ecosystems are being destroyed is, according to a very wide range of scientists and other people who study this shit, leading to a very likely ecological collapse that would probably happen within this century.
Protecting ecosystems is about protecting all life. We are literally killing ourselves off. We are overusing our planet to such a degree that we won't be able to sustain ourselves for more than a few decades longer at best.
You tell me who's the extremist. The people that are attempting to prevent or at least slow down this headlong rush into self destruction, or the people that are perpretrating and increasing the rate of this collapse.
By the way, thanks for bakcing me up on Judi Bari. I'd also like to site the example of Anna Mae Aquash who recieved death threats by FBI members and then was killed a year later. They are now framing John Graham for the murder. We also conclusively know that the FBI framed Leonard Peltier for murder as well. I can defintly dig up a lot of information on the murder or framing of radicals by state agencies if you really need me too but all you really need to do is read up on COINTELPRO.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: zappaisgod]
#2950373 - 07/31/04 10:48 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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zappaisgod said: You're right, "terrorist" is most certainly tossed around a bit too lightly. Mostly, they are common criminals.
kill a man because he is black and it's a hate crime, why is it no longer just murder... the crime is the same the motive is different, is a terrorist not just a killer with a fancy name.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
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Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: NiamhNyx]
#2950381 - 07/31/04 10:52 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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NiamhNyx said:
By the way, thanks for bakcing me up on Judi Bari. I'd also like to site the example of Anna Mae Aquash who recieved death threats by FBI members and then was killed a year later. COINTELPRO.
do a little reading on 'extremist' groups like the branch davidians... you will soon learn that this is a more frequent event than you ever immagined...when the crime is well known the criminals are still not punished... read Lon Horiutchi
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pB0t

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 2,556
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists *DELETED* [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2950565 - 07/31/04 11:59 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Post deleted by pB0tReason for deletion: .
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: pB0t]
#2950664 - 08/01/04 12:28 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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pB0t said: No one is going to listen to a bunch of violent nutjobs.
that explains why people dont listen to americans...
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#2950786 - 08/01/04 01:18 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I wonder how these eco-terrorists feel about the vivisection of unborn human fetuses.
The research is sure as hell going to be a lot more valuable carried out on humans than animals.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Phred]
#2950793 - 08/01/04 01:21 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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They're cool with it. Source? Incidentally, why shouldn't human beings have the "choice" of whether or not to sell themselves for experimentation? You are wholeheartedly behind giving people the "choice" to work in sweatshops under conditions that will rapidly kill them, what's the big deal about human vivisection? If a mother wants to sell her fetus (or herself) for experimentation to provide her other children a better life who are you to deny her that "choice"?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist



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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Xlea321]
#2951130 - 08/01/04 06:48 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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To be pro-animal rights, and pro choice is hypocracy.
-------------------- This space for rent
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retread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: NiamhNyx]
#2951218 - 08/01/04 08:50 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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NiamhNyx said: First of all harvesting a crop of pot is not the same as cutting down a forest because its a fucking monoculture crop, you can grow it in your basement and just plant more once you harvest it.
So killing a tree and killing a human are the same, but killing pot plants isn't. Do you have a system for this logic, or is it just "go with whatever sounds good at the time"?
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An old growth ecosystem is a whole lot more complex, being the unique home for thousands of species. YOu can't just replant a unique ecosystem, it will never be as diverse and as developed as it was before it was destroyed.
Sometimes I don't know who is more arrogant, the people who are pillaging our land, or the people who see Mother Nature as this fragile system that humans can so easily destroy. Nature will always find a way to come back. The parks at Yellowstone are more beautiful now than they once were. You use the word "never" and it shows your ignorance of these matters. In 500 years, that clear cut forest, even if totally left alone by humans, will be a thriving ecosystem again. I'm not trying to defend such practises, I'm just showing you that each side is a little bit wrong.
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Do you realize that every day 20 species go extinct? Only a couple decades ago it was 1 species a day and not much early than that it wasn't even 1 a month.... The rate at which ecosystems are being destroyed is, according to a very wide range of scientists and other people who study this shit, leading to a very likely ecological collapse that would probably happen within this century.
I think that the number of species going extinct / day is something thats honestly just impossible to calculate. I could say that a trillion species are being made extinct every day, but usually these scientists say that it's "unknown" species, so they don't realy have any evidence to support their claims
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Protecting ecosystems is about protecting all life. We are literally killing ourselves off. We are overusing our planet to such a degree that we won't be able to sustain ourselves for more than a few decades longer at best.
"A few decades"? I hope we are both around then so I can show you how wrong you are on that prediction. Also, lets say that you are right, and that humans through pollution and raping mother earth will kill ourselves off. Don't you think that Nature will then reclaim the earth? Look at houses that have been abandoned for 10 years, vines growing all over them, termites eating them away. A thousand years after the last human dies, most traces of us will be deteroriated. Earth will survive, the question is, will we?
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You tell me who's the extremist. The people that are attempting to prevent or at least slow down this headlong rush into self destruction, or the people that are perpretrating and increasing the rate of this collapse.
I don't think that the collapse is as imminent as you seem to believe.
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By the way, thanks for bakcing me up on Judi Bari.
I think that you said that the FBi bombed her car, but you still haven't shown me any evidence of this. The only link that bio showed talked about the settlement that was awarded against the FBI, nothing about her murder at their hands.
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I'd also like to site the example of Anna Mae Aquash who recieved death threats by FBI members and then was killed a year later. They are now framing John Graham for the murder. We also conclusively know that the FBI framed Leonard Peltier for murder as well. I can defintly dig up a lot of information on the murder or framing of radicals by state agencies if you really need me too but all you really need to do is read up on COINTELPRO.
I'd like you to, yes.
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: pB0t]
#2951233 - 08/01/04 09:08 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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pB0t said: People who use violence, destruction and intimidation to further their agendas make me sick.
What, like your government you mean?
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

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Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#2951307 - 08/01/04 10:06 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Baby_Hitler said: To be pro-animal rights, and pro choice is hypocracy.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#2951466 - 08/01/04 10:57 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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To be pro-animal rights, and pro choice is hypocracy Is this where I'm supposed to ask "Why"..? Right wingers are desperate for people to have the choice to "work" in conditions that may well kill them or face death through starvation, why shouldn't people have the "choice" to sell themselves for human experimentation? And if selling a fetus can make life better for your other kids why not?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: pB0t]
#2951493 - 08/01/04 11:09 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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There are millions of animals suffering in laboratories as subjects in experiments (some of which could save human lives, but many of which are totally unnecessary) and living in terrible conditions
At the end of the day there are thousands of people dying in agony from starvation every day. No-one in power really gives a fuck about that. Why should animals be experimented on when I'm sure there'd be thousands of people willing to sacrifice themselves? If a starving mother could save her children by being experimented on, why not at least give the kid a chance instead of leaving them both to certain death?
A human experiment is always going to be far, far more valuable than an animal.
Just an idea..
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Xlea321]
#2951497 - 08/01/04 11:13 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Alex123 said: Is this where I'm supposed to ask "Why"..?
Claiming that a monkey has a "right to life", but that an unborn fetus doesn't seems a bit hypocritical, no?
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Right wingers are desperate for people to have the choice to "work" in conditions that may well kill them or face death through starvation, why shouldn't people have the "choice" to sell themselves for human experimentation?
Abortions aren't human experimentation, it's a specific procedure. You don't get "paid" to have an abortion done, so they aren't "selling" themselves either. The two statements you just made are as far from describing abortion as can possibly be, are you sure that is what you are talking about?
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And if selling a fetus can make life better for your other kids why not?
What are you talking about when you refer to "selling a fetus"?
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: retread]
#2951514 - 08/01/04 11:20 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Claiming that a monkey has a "right to life", but that an unborn fetus doesn't seems a bit hypocritical, no? It's not really about "right to life" is it? We live in a world where thousands upon thousands of people die in agony of starvation every day. It's about finding cures and experimenting on human beings is a damn sight more valuable than opening up a marsupials skull. You don't get "paid" to have an abortion done, so they aren't "selling" themselves either. No, I'm talking about selling your fetus for experimentation. What are you talking about when you refer to "selling a fetus"? The world is a desperate place. If someone can save their own life and the life of their children by selling themselves or a fetus for human experimentation why experiment on animals? If you really want to find cures we need human experimentation right? At the moment we seem to be torturing animals AND leaving thousands of people to die in agony every day. Why not leave the animals out and go directly to the humans? They're going to die anyway arn't they?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist



Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,660
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 7 hours, 51 minutes
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Xlea321]
#2951523 - 08/01/04 11:23 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Fetuses can't enter into legally binding contracts untill they are 18. 
How is a fetus going to make a "choice" about what to do with their bodies?
-------------------- This space for rent
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Xlea321]
#2951526 - 08/01/04 11:25 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex123 said: No, I'm talking about selling your fetus for experimentation.
Do you support this barbaric concept or are you just being a troll?
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#2951528 - 08/01/04 11:26 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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And are you in favour of someone over the age of 18 being able to sell themselves for experiments?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Xlea321]
#2951542 - 08/01/04 11:30 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Alex: you say we should experiment on poor people who are dying anyway, which ones do you mean? Humans in third world countries dying of starvartiong and CUREABLE diseases?
That's an absoultely obscene suggestion.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist



Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,660
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 7 hours, 51 minutes
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Xlea321]
#2951552 - 08/01/04 11:32 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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It happens all the time actually. None of them ever get their brains cut out though.
I'd have to say that I would be against legalized voluntary human experimentation that has a 100% chance of death.
-------------------- This space for rent
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2951572 - 08/01/04 11:39 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Alex: you say we should experiment on poor people who are dying anyway, which ones do you mean? Humans in third world countries dying of starvartiong and CUREABLE diseases? No, I'm just pointing out how strange it is that the same right-wingers who are so blase about the fate of countless thousands of butchered Iraqis, or the starving, or helping Africa, or saving people from horrendous deaths in lousy conditions in sweatshops..become so animated about the "value of human life" when it comes to animal rights. They'll defend to the hilt economic policies that condemn millions of people to slow, agonising deaths, so why the big deal over animal rights?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Xlea321]
#2951587 - 08/01/04 11:44 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't think any of them here ARE supporting animals rights. But yeah, I follow you now. Although we can't really expect them to give a hoot about animals (even though their life is just as valid as anything else) when they don't about their fellow human beings.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
Edited by rogue_pixie (08/01/04 11:48 AM)
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2951601 - 08/01/04 11:48 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I mean in the sense that they're suddenly referring to the "value of human life"...while thousands of people starve to death every day as they live in luxury and hysterically refuse the idea of sharing wealth.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Xlea321]
#2951606 - 08/01/04 11:50 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yes, now THAT is hypocrisy.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Xlea321]
#2951627 - 08/01/04 11:56 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I mean in the sense that they're suddenly referring to the "value of human life"...while thousands of people starve to death every day as they live in luxury and hysterically refuse the idea of sharing wealth.
When are you going to learn? When you were in pre-school and the little girl asked if she could play with your blocks, THAT was sharing. When the bully came over and TOOK your blocks, THAT was NOT sharing. Comprende?
-------------------- ?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.? -Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Xlea321]
#2951635 - 08/01/04 11:57 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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You're pointing out nothing of coherence. Butchering anyone is wrong. It is good to help out starving people. It is moral cowardice to force third parties via the coercive mechanism of the state to do your bidding. There is nothing morally wrong with two parties agreeing on an employment situation. Those with the ability to reason and not blinded by the emotionalism of self loathing recognize that humans are a seperate species and there is nothing wrong with putting the welfare of your own species above that of other animals, it is the way of nature. As usual, your clouded mind brings together a jumbled mishmash of disparate concepts and attempts to sell them as one. They are not.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
Edited by Evolving (08/01/04 12:28 PM)
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Evolving]
#2951776 - 08/01/04 12:31 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Evolving said: Those with the ability to reason and not blinded by the emotionalism of self loathing recognize that humans are a seperate species and there is nothing wrong with putting the welfare of your own species above that of other animals, it is the way of nature.
People are always looking for an excuse for their actions, no one wants to take responsibility for the injustices of the world so we blame NATURE, every single fucking time. I'm sick of hearing it. Things can't change, it's just nature. WRONG we are nature. "hey I'm not a bad person for happily seeing these animals get tortured to death, it's just the way of nature after all, nothing to do with me" It's the biggest fucking cop out going. It's about time people woke up and started taking responsibility for their actions. It's too easy to sit back and be apathetic and say oh things will never change, it's not out fault, it's natures fault. Alex is right - people that freely support a system that thrives on inequality and human suffering whilst preaching about how important it is that we find new cures for humans by testing on animals. Hello, get your priorities straight here. Humans die every day because they don't even have basic health care and FOOD. These are the real important issues. Not torturing several thousand guinea pigs in the hope it might help us learn more about cures for US.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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retread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Xlea321]
#2951831 - 08/01/04 12:41 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex123 said: It's not really about "right to life" is it?
Subjective. I'd say "yes".
Quote:
We live in a world where thousands upon thousands of people die in agony of starvation every day. It's about finding cures and experimenting on human beings is a damn sight more valuable than opening up a marsupials skull.
If companies were allowed to purchase these living people to experiment on, and the people concented to it knowing that the money would be extremely beneficial to their families, I'd say go for it. Not my job to choose things for people, if the subject concents.
Quote:
No, I'm talking about selling your fetus for experimentation.
Sorry about that, I was misunderstanding what the topic at hand was. The fetus doesn't have the ability to make informed concent, so it can't be sold. If you want to sell your g randfather, however, and he concents, so be it.
Quote:
The world is a desperate place. If someone can save their own life and the life of their children by selling themselves or a fetus for human experimentation why experiment on animals? If you really want to find cures we need human experimentation right?
The fetus can't make the decision to be sacrifised, therefore he is being forced into something. That is my only grief with it.
Quote:
At the moment we seem to be torturing animals AND leaving thousands of people to die in agony every day. Why not leave the animals out and go directly to the humans? They're going to die anyway arn't they?
So we can get the people that voluntarily concent to having experiments done on them in order to provide a better life for their family. It still sound cheaper to just do animals, but fetus's are definatly off of the list.
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retread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2951852 - 08/01/04 12:45 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
rogue_pixie said: Alex is right - people that freely support a system that thrives on inequality and human suffering whilst preaching about how important it is that we find new cures for humans by testing on animals. Hello, get your priorities straight here. Humans die every day because they don't even have basic health care and FOOD. These are the real important issues. Not torturing several thousand guinea pigs in the hope it might help us learn more about cures for US.
I'm going to wager that you don't know anything about the smallpox epidemics that plagued the world, the research that cured them, and the millions of people in third world nations that were saved by the industrialized nations who promoted the smallpox eradication movement. Why bother learning anything that doesn't support your position?
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2951862 - 08/01/04 12:47 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
rogue_pixie said: People are always looking for an excuse for their actions, no one wants to take responsibility for the injustices of the world so we blame NATURE, every single fucking time.
Huh? There is no need for an excuse to support actions which help humans at the expense of other species. It is not blaming nature, it is recognizing facts of nature.
Quote:
It's about time people woke up and started taking responsibility for their actions.
I have constantly maintained this as well. It is the responsible thing to do to support research which will help our fellow humans overcome disease and disability. It is the responsible thing to do to help our fellow humans WITHOUT farming it out to the state (having it use force or the threat of force to get third parties to support it), instead of standing smugly in our voting booths thinking how superior we are that we punched a card for an 'enlightened' candidate or party. Thanks for seeing things my way.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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pB0t

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 2,556
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists *DELETED* [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2952024 - 08/01/04 01:38 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Post deleted by pB0tReason for deletion: .
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: pB0t]
#2952108 - 08/01/04 02:05 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Good on you, ditto.
I'm a pacifist ..which means violence is a no from me too.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#2952994 - 08/01/04 05:14 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Baby_Hitler said: Fetuses can't enter into legally binding contracts untill they are 18.  How is a fetus going to make a "choice" about what to do with their bodies?
this gives me hope that there is still a chance for Post-Birth abortions
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: retread]
#2956004 - 08/02/04 11:30 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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The whole argument you're making about killing pot is ridiculous, and I already explained why. It's a crop you can grow inside your damn house, it certainly isn't a unique and complex ecosystem that has taken hundreds of years to mature and become the entity it is. You can plant more pot and get the same thing you had before within less than a year. It isn't wrong to kill a living being, the issue at hand is the context, the consequences, the scale and the purpose. There's a difference between cutting down one tree and razing acre upon acre and leaving a desolate wasteland in your wake. If you really don't understand that then we have a problem. You are trying to shove ridiculous moralities at me, which I don't subscribe to. There is a difference between snaring a rabbit, eating its flesh and making its fur into clothing... and slitting it's vocal cords and pouring corrosive chemicals down it's throat to discover what happens when you drink drano.
Here is some of the information I offered. I just grabbed the first few sites I could find and could probably be more extensive but I'll have too look harder later.
This link is about COINTELPRO, a secret FBI organization which was exposed in the 70's intended to "neutralize" political dissidents. Targets included the Black Panther Party, the American Indian Movement, the Communist Party of the USA and many others. http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointelpro/cointel.htm
Judi Bari info http://www.judibari.org/default.html
Leonard Peltier http://www.freepeltier.org/
John Graham http://www.grahamdefense.org/
There is a bit of a start.
Back to the argument at hand. Yeah, I do realize that ecosystems will tend to rebuild after several hundred years, but is it worth losing diverse and spectacular ecosystems for that long so that we can have toothpicks and coffee stir sticks? There is also the fact that many species require a large and intact habitat in order to survive and many of them will not be able to wait 500 years for things to stabilize. Extinct is forever, and although some species are resiliant many are not. We are losing major species right now, not just endiscovered bacteria or insects, we're talking large predators who simply can't sit dormant and wait 500 years for thier forest to come back to life.
The earth will most likely continue to live after the human species goes extinct (which will be sooner rather than later at this rate.) Personally I'd like to see the human species thrive. I'd like to see us remember that we are part of the earth and not some alien creature placed here to dominate it. It's this pathological desire for domination that's getting us to a point where the necessities for survival are getting more and more difficult to maintain. If we all die off there would probably be a period of turmoil but yeah, the earth would probably restore biodiversity after time and then thrive without our destructive habits preventing that. I'd not only prefer if we didn't have a human extinction, I'd also like to see as many other species survive into the future as possible. If we've got an ecological catastrophe on the way I'd like to protect what I can now so there's a better chance of there being *something* other than cockroaches and mosquitos to begin again with.
The recognition that ecological collapse is iminent is not some wierdo extremist idea that we pulled out of our asses to justify radicalism. A whole lot of mainstream scientists are figuring this stuff out and attempting to wake people up to the fact that we are on a suicide mission. Give it 20 years or give it 200, we are close enough to a collapse to warrant doing whatever we can to prevent it, or soften the impact.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: NiamhNyx]
#2956050 - 08/02/04 11:43 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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As a secondary note, what is even worse than right wing bastards demonizing those of us that take radical direct action is the fucking mainstream "environmentalists" "animal rights activists" and similar groups that play the dissociation game to appeal to the mainstream right. You are playing thier game by agreeing that ALF or ELF types are terrorists and that you'd never stoop to their level. No, you'd rather write up petitions and carry signs begging the right to please listen and please stop doing bad things. It's bullshit, and it makes me sick to my stomache that people who claim to have similar goals are so desperate to appeal to and beg thier enemies for recognition that they would alienate themselves from thier real allies.
What about respect for tactical diversity? What about recognizing who actually shares your goals and respecting that thier analysis and life experience has brought them into a different sphere of strategy than yours has brought you? Pacifism is an excuse to cling to class, gender and race privilege and attempt to associate yourself with the mainstream rather than actually recognizing who is a real ally and respecting people's diversity of tactical choices.
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: NiamhNyx]
#2956090 - 08/02/04 11:55 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said: As a secondary note, what is even worse than right wing bastards demonizing those of us that take radical direct action is the fucking mainstream "environmentalists" "animal rights activists" and similar groups that play the dissociation game to appeal to the mainstream right. You are playing thier game by agreeing that ALF or ELF types are terrorists and that you'd never stoop to their level. No, you'd rather write up petitions and carry signs begging the right to please listen and please stop doing bad things. It's bullshit, and it makes me sick to my stomache that people who claim to have similar goals are so desperate to appeal to and beg thier enemies for recognition that they would alienate themselves from thier real allies.
What about respect for tactical diversity? What about recognizing who actually shares your goals and respecting that thier analysis and life experience has brought them into a different sphere of strategy than yours has brought you? Pacifism is an excuse to cling to class, gender and race privilege and attempt to associate yourself with the mainstream rather than actually recognizing who is a real ally and respecting people's diversity of tactical choices.
I certainly wasn't condemning your actions, I admire you. I simply do not believe that violence will achieve peace. Pacifism isn't an excuse for anything, it is a personal belief, I openly acknowledge who the enemies in this world are and believe me, I'm on the same side as you are. "Peace force" - what is wrong with that phrase? I really don't believe that we'll ever achieve a peaceful society by using force and violence, how can you even begin to imagine such a society will exist if you try to achieve it through violence? I think you and I are very similiar and want the same things ... we just don't agree with the same tactics for achieving it.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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Meat_Log_Smurf
FumbDuck

Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 1,144
Loc: BFE
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: silversoul7]
#2958330 - 08/02/04 10:38 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Wow Silver have you been taking meds lately? I find myself agreeing with about 80% of what you have been saying lately. Scary.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2969575 - 08/05/04 07:33 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Rogue Pixie, I totally get where you're coming from, but I've come to disagree wholeheartedly with it over the past couple of years. The state and ruling elite are the greatest perpetrators of violence to ever exist, it is not violent to use whatever means are most effective at combating thier use of oppressive force. A non-pacifist anarchist is not using violence because they think its fun or glorious, but because they have analysed the hell out of a set of circumstances and come to realize that a certain course of action is the most useful for the particular situation at hand. I am not jumping to assasinate George Bush because I don't believe it will achieve the results I would hope for, someone would merely fill his space and the kind of backlash that would occur would be insane. However, that isn't ruling out that perhaps a similar course of action is appropriate under other circumstances. I don't desire to hurt any living being, but when I'm threatened I reserve the right to use whatever means I'm capable of to defend myself (and I extend myself to include my wider community. As well as extending self defence beyond reactionism.) If you get to close to a momma bears cubs she'll warn you, then threaten you, then rip your face off if you still insist on threatening her cubs. The same goes for pretty much every other creature on the planet. To deny ourselves the room to chose our means of action based on the situation at hand, due to some abstract morality, is a bad idea.
I really highly recommend reading Pacifism as Pathology by Ward Churchil. I'm not expecting that you'll agree with it, but perhaps it will clarify why non-pacifists are non-pacifists. It's a really compelling book. I don't know anyone who was still a pacifist after reading it.
Oh, I also didn't necessarily mean that you specifically were the kind of pacifist that condemns nonpacifists but there are a lot of them out there. We like to call them the "peace police", and they're worse than real cops coz you never know who's gonna be one. In Seattle there were instances in which the peace police would punch members of the black bloc in the face for smashing corporate windows, and attempt to coerce them into a fist fight. Seriously now, that is absolutely ludicrous. Hurting a real human being because that person damaged a piece of property owned by the common enemy?
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