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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#2951307 - 08/01/04 10:06 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Baby_Hitler said: To be pro-animal rights, and pro choice is hypocracy.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#2951466 - 08/01/04 10:57 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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To be pro-animal rights, and pro choice is hypocracy Is this where I'm supposed to ask "Why"..? Right wingers are desperate for people to have the choice to "work" in conditions that may well kill them or face death through starvation, why shouldn't people have the "choice" to sell themselves for human experimentation? And if selling a fetus can make life better for your other kids why not?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: pB0t]
#2951493 - 08/01/04 11:09 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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There are millions of animals suffering in laboratories as subjects in experiments (some of which could save human lives, but many of which are totally unnecessary) and living in terrible conditions
At the end of the day there are thousands of people dying in agony from starvation every day. No-one in power really gives a fuck about that. Why should animals be experimented on when I'm sure there'd be thousands of people willing to sacrifice themselves? If a starving mother could save her children by being experimented on, why not at least give the kid a chance instead of leaving them both to certain death?
A human experiment is always going to be far, far more valuable than an animal.
Just an idea..
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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retread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Xlea321]
#2951497 - 08/01/04 11:13 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Alex123 said: Is this where I'm supposed to ask "Why"..?
Claiming that a monkey has a "right to life", but that an unborn fetus doesn't seems a bit hypocritical, no?
Quote:
Right wingers are desperate for people to have the choice to "work" in conditions that may well kill them or face death through starvation, why shouldn't people have the "choice" to sell themselves for human experimentation?
Abortions aren't human experimentation, it's a specific procedure. You don't get "paid" to have an abortion done, so they aren't "selling" themselves either. The two statements you just made are as far from describing abortion as can possibly be, are you sure that is what you are talking about?
Quote:
And if selling a fetus can make life better for your other kids why not?
What are you talking about when you refer to "selling a fetus"?
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: retread]
#2951514 - 08/01/04 11:20 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Claiming that a monkey has a "right to life", but that an unborn fetus doesn't seems a bit hypocritical, no? It's not really about "right to life" is it? We live in a world where thousands upon thousands of people die in agony of starvation every day. It's about finding cures and experimenting on human beings is a damn sight more valuable than opening up a marsupials skull. You don't get "paid" to have an abortion done, so they aren't "selling" themselves either. No, I'm talking about selling your fetus for experimentation. What are you talking about when you refer to "selling a fetus"? The world is a desperate place. If someone can save their own life and the life of their children by selling themselves or a fetus for human experimentation why experiment on animals? If you really want to find cures we need human experimentation right? At the moment we seem to be torturing animals AND leaving thousands of people to die in agony every day. Why not leave the animals out and go directly to the humans? They're going to die anyway arn't they?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist



Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,660
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 7 hours, 51 minutes
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Xlea321]
#2951523 - 08/01/04 11:23 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Fetuses can't enter into legally binding contracts untill they are 18. 
How is a fetus going to make a "choice" about what to do with their bodies?
-------------------- This space for rent
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Xlea321]
#2951526 - 08/01/04 11:25 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex123 said: No, I'm talking about selling your fetus for experimentation.
Do you support this barbaric concept or are you just being a troll?
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#2951528 - 08/01/04 11:26 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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And are you in favour of someone over the age of 18 being able to sell themselves for experiments?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Xlea321]
#2951542 - 08/01/04 11:30 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Alex: you say we should experiment on poor people who are dying anyway, which ones do you mean? Humans in third world countries dying of starvartiong and CUREABLE diseases?
That's an absoultely obscene suggestion.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist



Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,660
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 7 hours, 51 minutes
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Xlea321]
#2951552 - 08/01/04 11:32 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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It happens all the time actually. None of them ever get their brains cut out though.
I'd have to say that I would be against legalized voluntary human experimentation that has a 100% chance of death.
-------------------- This space for rent
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2951572 - 08/01/04 11:39 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Alex: you say we should experiment on poor people who are dying anyway, which ones do you mean? Humans in third world countries dying of starvartiong and CUREABLE diseases? No, I'm just pointing out how strange it is that the same right-wingers who are so blase about the fate of countless thousands of butchered Iraqis, or the starving, or helping Africa, or saving people from horrendous deaths in lousy conditions in sweatshops..become so animated about the "value of human life" when it comes to animal rights. They'll defend to the hilt economic policies that condemn millions of people to slow, agonising deaths, so why the big deal over animal rights?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Xlea321]
#2951587 - 08/01/04 11:44 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't think any of them here ARE supporting animals rights. But yeah, I follow you now. Although we can't really expect them to give a hoot about animals (even though their life is just as valid as anything else) when they don't about their fellow human beings.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
Edited by rogue_pixie (08/01/04 11:48 AM)
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Posts: 9,134
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2951601 - 08/01/04 11:48 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I mean in the sense that they're suddenly referring to the "value of human life"...while thousands of people starve to death every day as they live in luxury and hysterically refuse the idea of sharing wealth.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Xlea321]
#2951606 - 08/01/04 11:50 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yes, now THAT is hypocrisy.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Xlea321]
#2951627 - 08/01/04 11:56 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I mean in the sense that they're suddenly referring to the "value of human life"...while thousands of people starve to death every day as they live in luxury and hysterically refuse the idea of sharing wealth.
When are you going to learn? When you were in pre-school and the little girl asked if she could play with your blocks, THAT was sharing. When the bully came over and TOOK your blocks, THAT was NOT sharing. Comprende?
-------------------- ?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.? -Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Xlea321]
#2951635 - 08/01/04 11:57 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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You're pointing out nothing of coherence. Butchering anyone is wrong. It is good to help out starving people. It is moral cowardice to force third parties via the coercive mechanism of the state to do your bidding. There is nothing morally wrong with two parties agreeing on an employment situation. Those with the ability to reason and not blinded by the emotionalism of self loathing recognize that humans are a seperate species and there is nothing wrong with putting the welfare of your own species above that of other animals, it is the way of nature. As usual, your clouded mind brings together a jumbled mishmash of disparate concepts and attempts to sell them as one. They are not.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
Edited by Evolving (08/01/04 12:28 PM)
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rogue_pixie
faerydae


Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Evolving]
#2951776 - 08/01/04 12:31 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Evolving said: Those with the ability to reason and not blinded by the emotionalism of self loathing recognize that humans are a seperate species and there is nothing wrong with putting the welfare of your own species above that of other animals, it is the way of nature.
People are always looking for an excuse for their actions, no one wants to take responsibility for the injustices of the world so we blame NATURE, every single fucking time. I'm sick of hearing it. Things can't change, it's just nature. WRONG we are nature. "hey I'm not a bad person for happily seeing these animals get tortured to death, it's just the way of nature after all, nothing to do with me" It's the biggest fucking cop out going. It's about time people woke up and started taking responsibility for their actions. It's too easy to sit back and be apathetic and say oh things will never change, it's not out fault, it's natures fault. Alex is right - people that freely support a system that thrives on inequality and human suffering whilst preaching about how important it is that we find new cures for humans by testing on animals. Hello, get your priorities straight here. Humans die every day because they don't even have basic health care and FOOD. These are the real important issues. Not torturing several thousand guinea pigs in the hope it might help us learn more about cures for US.
-------------------- "Whatever you do, you need to keep moving. Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally). Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP
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retread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: Xlea321]
#2951831 - 08/01/04 12:41 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Alex123 said: It's not really about "right to life" is it?
Subjective. I'd say "yes".
Quote:
We live in a world where thousands upon thousands of people die in agony of starvation every day. It's about finding cures and experimenting on human beings is a damn sight more valuable than opening up a marsupials skull.
If companies were allowed to purchase these living people to experiment on, and the people concented to it knowing that the money would be extremely beneficial to their families, I'd say go for it. Not my job to choose things for people, if the subject concents.
Quote:
No, I'm talking about selling your fetus for experimentation.
Sorry about that, I was misunderstanding what the topic at hand was. The fetus doesn't have the ability to make informed concent, so it can't be sold. If you want to sell your g randfather, however, and he concents, so be it.
Quote:
The world is a desperate place. If someone can save their own life and the life of their children by selling themselves or a fetus for human experimentation why experiment on animals? If you really want to find cures we need human experimentation right?
The fetus can't make the decision to be sacrifised, therefore he is being forced into something. That is my only grief with it.
Quote:
At the moment we seem to be torturing animals AND leaving thousands of people to die in agony every day. Why not leave the animals out and go directly to the humans? They're going to die anyway arn't they?
So we can get the people that voluntarily concent to having experiments done on them in order to provide a better life for their family. It still sound cheaper to just do animals, but fetus's are definatly off of the list.
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retread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2951852 - 08/01/04 12:45 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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rogue_pixie said: Alex is right - people that freely support a system that thrives on inequality and human suffering whilst preaching about how important it is that we find new cures for humans by testing on animals. Hello, get your priorities straight here. Humans die every day because they don't even have basic health care and FOOD. These are the real important issues. Not torturing several thousand guinea pigs in the hope it might help us learn more about cures for US.
I'm going to wager that you don't know anything about the smallpox epidemics that plagued the world, the research that cured them, and the millions of people in third world nations that were saved by the industrialized nations who promoted the smallpox eradication movement. Why bother learning anything that doesn't support your position?
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: New Laws Against Animal Rights Activists [Re: rogue_pixie]
#2951862 - 08/01/04 12:47 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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rogue_pixie said: People are always looking for an excuse for their actions, no one wants to take responsibility for the injustices of the world so we blame NATURE, every single fucking time.
Huh? There is no need for an excuse to support actions which help humans at the expense of other species. It is not blaming nature, it is recognizing facts of nature.
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It's about time people woke up and started taking responsibility for their actions.
I have constantly maintained this as well. It is the responsible thing to do to support research which will help our fellow humans overcome disease and disability. It is the responsible thing to do to help our fellow humans WITHOUT farming it out to the state (having it use force or the threat of force to get third parties to support it), instead of standing smugly in our voting booths thinking how superior we are that we punched a card for an 'enlightened' candidate or party. Thanks for seeing things my way.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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