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Offlinecybrbeast
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Politics are
    #2944620 - 07/30/04 02:28 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

bad


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futuretribe.space


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Politics are [Re: cybrbeast]
    #2944629 - 07/30/04 02:30 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

+1


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Politics are [Re: cybrbeast]
    #2945071 - 07/30/04 04:00 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Well, I suppose that's a nice shortcut to thinking.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Onlinerogue_pixie
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Re: Politics are [Re: cybrbeast]
    #2945132 - 07/30/04 04:13 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

"If you're tired of religion you can be the anti-chriiist
If you're tired of politics you can be an anarchiiiist"


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'It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.' ~ J. Krishnamurti


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OfflineAncalagon
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Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: Politics are [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2945145 - 07/30/04 04:16 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Speaking of which, you never got back to me on what exactly you mean by Anarchy, how you would go about achieving said Anarchy, what your ideal, but realistic(that is, working around the fact that human nature is a constant) nation would look like, and how the principles of literal anarchy(that is, the absence of government) are consistent with your desire for everyone to have equal opportunity in life(when such is directly contrary TO human nature).


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Politics are [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2945217 - 07/30/04 04:31 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I want to know as well.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Onlinerogue_pixie
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Re: Politics are [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2945301 - 07/30/04 04:51 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Speaking of which, you never got back to me on what exactly you mean by Anarchy, how you would go about achieving said Anarchy, what your ideal, but realistic(that is, working around the fact that human nature is a constant) nation would look like, and how the principles of literal anarchy(that is, the absence of government) are consistent with your desire for everyone to have equal opportunity in life(when such is directly contrary TO human nature).




Achieving anarchy is unlikely in my time, it must be a decision of the people, enough people have to want it before it could ever be feasible. Spreading awareness about the worlds current affairs via activism, subversion, protests etc is all useful.

I don't believe that the world as it stands today is entirely a result of human nature, it is a result of people allowing the small minority of tyrants to exploit the us. Remember, we don't run the world, it's the multi millionaires that rule the roost. It's time people realised that we are the ones keeping them in power and they are nothing without us.

I don't believe that famine, poverty, unnecessary suffering are part of human nature at all, just because it is happening now doesn't mean that we cannot change it. People talk about human nature all of the time but no one really knows what it is because we are so diverse and unique. People are far too hasty to generalise and make assumptions instead of treating everyone as an individual. Everyone is an individual and in my opinion we should all be free to make our own decisions and live the way that we wish to.


--------------------
'It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.' ~ J. Krishnamurti


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
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Re: Politics are [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2945399 - 07/30/04 05:17 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

i think we already live in anarchy.

but we've been tricked into thinking there are laws.
and people who enforce them equally.

this isnt true.

law is obviously above the law.

so what we actually have is a powerfull gang, holding power over us through force.

its still anarchy.
we could choose to stop participating.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineAncalagon
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Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: Politics are [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2945411 - 07/30/04 05:20 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Achieving anarchy is unlikely in my time, it must be a decision of the people, enough people have to want it before it could ever be feasible.



I disagree with you. ALL people would have to want it before it could ever be feasible. So long as their are some humans who seek to achieve ends(whether it be for material possession, power, etc) via the initiation of force, Anarchy cannot endure. These individuals seeking power with an iron fist will in short time become as ruthless and oppressive a government as you can imagine, and thus ends anarchy.

Quote:

I don't believe that the world as it stands today is entirely a result of human nature, it is a result of people allowing the small minority of tyrants to exploit the us.



People seeking to further their existance IS human nature, you must see that. Would you have us return to hunting and gathering? Not so many millionaires then but quite a bit more human suffering. Very puzzling.

Quote:

Remember, we don't run the world, it's the multi millionaires that rule the roost.



In almost all cases, via governments.

Quote:

It's time people realised that we are the ones keeping them in power and they are nothing without us.




You can ruin a CEO by showing him for what he is(whatever that may be) and thereby destroying his ability to sell products. The problem is the politicians and the buearucrats who you truly cannot exert control over once in power.

Quote:

I don't believe that famine, poverty, unnecessary suffering are part of human nature at all, just because it is happening now doesn't mean that we cannot change it.



Those things have always been a part of human society though. Poverty and Famine on a relative scale are NOTHING compared to what they were in neolithic and paleolithic times, yet humans lived in very small tribes, there were no 'millionaires', and government consisted of an alpha-male or tribal leader at best who could probably be challenged for his spot at any time. I ask again, HOW are 'we' going to change it on our own. How would the elimination of government(and that's what Anarchy requires in case you didn't know) going to lead to the elimination of people who have more than others(see: people who have acquired more wealth than others || also see: millionaires), without a dramatic and unforseen shift in human conscience? This is really the crux of the issue.

Quote:

Everyone is an individual and in my opinion we should all be free to make our own decisions and live the way that we wish to.



You either forget or ignore the fact that humans have the tendency to initiate force against each other. Anarchy could not lead to anything but more oppression and more hopelessness as there would be nothing to stop the man with the biggest army from utterly enslaving everyone else. I say again, Anarchy is dream-talk with human nature as it is. You may say I generalize, I would ask you to view history and show me any instance of man not initiating force against man in society.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
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Re: Politics are [Re: BleaK]
    #2945418 - 07/30/04 05:23 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

what ppl might not realize about anarchy
is that nothing is given.
you must claim and hold all that u desire.

which the "government(mafia)" is doing.

we just let them.

we see them as the "leaders" because they are the strongest, they weild the most force.

that could change very quickly.

the idea of descentralized force. (no more than 1 person acting on 1 other.)
and the idea that in some utopian "anarchist" state, that there would be no power struggle.
is crazy.

these smart "govt officials" have just convinced us that, we cant handle ourselves or anyone else. so they must do it.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Onlinerogue_pixie
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Re: Politics are [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2945437 - 07/30/04 05:28 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

My words are wasted on most people and I really don't give a hoot anymore. I'm fed up of discussing it.


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'It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.' ~ J. Krishnamurti


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OfflineAncalagon
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Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: Politics are [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2945466 - 07/30/04 05:32 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I guess I'm 'most people' then...

...that hurts.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
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Re: Politics are [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2945475 - 07/30/04 05:33 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Perhaps the problem isn't your audience, perhaps it's your "all we need is love" political philosophy that has no basis in reality.


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Onlinerogue_pixie
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Re: Politics are [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2945489 - 07/30/04 05:36 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Yes - judging from your previous posts you're a waste of time, you know it's obvious when people are only interested in waiting for their turn to speak to try to prove the other person wrong than actually wholeheartedly wanting a discussion.


--------------------
'It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.' ~ J. Krishnamurti


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
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Re: Politics are [Re: Tao]
    #2945491 - 07/30/04 05:37 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

id just like to throw this in;

if u havent read "Operating Manuel for Spaceship Earth"

the author has a nice description of "wealth"


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineTao
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Registered: 09/19/03
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Re: Politics are [Re: BleaK]
    #2945498 - 07/30/04 05:39 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


the author has a nice description of "wealth"




Seeing as the chances of me driving to the library, checking out this book and combing it over for this random person's perspective on what wealth is, why don't you just give me the gist?


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OfflineTao
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Re: Politics are [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2945504 - 07/30/04 05:41 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

rogue_pixie said:
Yes - judging from your previous posts you're a waste of time, you know it's obvious when people are only interested in waiting for their turn to speak to try to prove the other person wrong than actually wholeheartedly wanting a discussion.




What are you talking about? Ancalagon just addressed your post point by point. In fact, I don't believe he even mentioned his own philosophy of natural rights, but rather was discussing just your own philosophy. that's discussion, not 'waiting for their turn to speak'


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Onlinerogue_pixie
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Re: Politics are [Re: Tao]
    #2945531 - 07/30/04 05:50 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

What the hell am I talking about? Something that's clearly above your comprehension.


--------------------
'It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.' ~ J. Krishnamurti


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Politics are [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2945557 - 07/30/04 05:58 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

My poli sci professor told us that politics were 100% about resolving conflicts, whether by force or reason or bargaining. As long as there are two people on the planet there will be conflict between them. How do the anarchists propose to resolve conflicts? Do not even bother telling me that anarchists don't have conflicts with each other.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Politics are [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2945560 - 07/30/04 05:58 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

rogue_pixie said:
What the hell am I talking about? Something that's clearly above your comprehension.



You have to communicate ideas before someone can be expected to comprehend them.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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