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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
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Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
fiscal conservatism
    #2939817 - 07/29/04 09:30 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

does it work? name a country it has worked in. show me some facts.where has it worked in real life, not just on paper?

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Invisiblerogue_pixie
faerydae
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2939852 - 07/29/04 09:43 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Even if it did benefit the citizens more, it would be at the expense of other peoples lives and well being. The rich get richer while the poor keep on getting poorer.

It's about time people woke up and realised we are all floating through space on the same ball of mud and no longer exist in isolation on our individual Islands. Decisions made in one country globally impact upon other countries.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Offlinest0nedphucker
Rogue State
Male
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 1,047
Loc: Wales (yes it is a countr...
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2939866 - 07/29/04 09:46 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Even if it did benefit the citizens more, it would be at the expense of other peoples lives and well being. The rich get richer while the poor keep on getting poorer.




Do you have anything that substantiates this or do you base it on what you have been fed?

I'd like to some see figures showing this or at least you can explain your opinion.

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Invisiblerogue_pixie
faerydae
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2939876 - 07/29/04 09:48 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

It's a well known fact that the western civilisation exploits poor countries, we have stolen all of the wealth from the land - why do you think the world is so out of balance?


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
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Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2939879 - 07/29/04 09:49 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

exactly, differences between classes would be so great that there would be revolution

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Invisiblerogue_pixie
faerydae
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2939880 - 07/29/04 09:49 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

And I don't base it on what I've been "fed", I base it on what I observe, it doesn't take a genius to figure out.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Invisiblerogue_pixie
faerydae
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2939882 - 07/29/04 09:50 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Who said revolution was a bad thing? :smirk:


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2939884 - 07/29/04 09:51 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Economic Freedom of the World

An annual study performed by the Cato Institute of the United States, the Fraser Institute of Canada, and more than 50 other Think Tanks around the world.

Economic freedom is strongly related to prosperity and growth. Countries that are economically free tend to grow faster and be more prosperous. New research in the 2004 report finds that economically free nations attract nearly $11,000 of investment per worker, 12 times more than the $847 investment per worker in unfree economies. Moreover, the productivity of investment is 70 percent greater in economically free nations than in unfree nations.

Nations in the top fifth of economic freedom have an average per capita income of $26,100 compared to $2,800 for nations in the bottom fifth. Economic freedom benefits the lives of all people including the poor. In nations in the top fifth of economic freedom, the average income of the poorest 10 percent of the population was $6,877 compared to just $823 in the least free nations.


Economic Freedom and the Millennium Challenge Account

Economic Freedom and Economic Growth

Many economists have long argued that economic growth and poverty reduction require an economic policy that encourages economic freedom. This report provides plenty of empirical evidence of that.

For example, countries with the highest levels of economic freedom in 2002 had growth rates 1.5 times those of all the others on average in the last decade. Those with the lowest levels of economic freedom actually had negative economic growth ? a shocking statistic during a period in world history of relative calm and prosperity.

Rising Living Standards and Better Policies

Not only does greater economic freedom go hand in hand with economic growth, it benefits people in immediate and tangible ways. Comparing the countries whose economic freedom places them in the top fifth with the countries in the bottom fifth:

- incomes are nine times greater;
- life expectancy is more than 22 years longer;
- adult literacy is almost 17 percentage points higher;
- infant mortality is nine times lower; and
- people are 36 percent more likely to have access to treated water in countries with high economic freedom ratings.

This report also shows real progress in improving economic freedom: There has been an overall increase in mean economic freedom scores over the last twenty years, with specific improvements around the world. For example, there are:

- more stable monetary policies with lower inflation;
- lower marginal tax rates;
- fewer foreign exchange controls;
- fewer capital market and interest rate controls; and
- lower barriers to international trade.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
It has been proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that on average, the more economically free a country is, the more prosperous it will be. I would like to know, what makes you think this trend would reverse as government gets its hands off an economy more and more?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
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Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2939889 - 07/29/04 09:52 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

yes we talk about that in my Cultural Anth class. we are using so many of the world's resources that "delveloping" countries will never be able to "develop" and live at the same level of consumption and comfortability as us. There isnt enough to go around, its just a matter of time before people get sick of our corporations raping their people. paying someone 25 cents a week for 40hours of manufacturing work in not right.

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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
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Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2939893 - 07/29/04 09:54 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Economic Freedom of the World

An annual study performed by the Cato Institute of the United States, the Fraser Institute of Canada, and more than 50 other Think Tanks around the world.

Economic freedom is strongly related to prosperity and growth. Countries that are economically free tend to grow faster and be more prosperous. New research in the 2004 report finds that economically free nations attract nearly $11,000 of investment per worker, 12 times more than the $847 investment per worker in unfree economies. Moreover, the productivity of investment is 70 percent greater in economically free nations than in unfree nations.

Nations in the top fifth of economic freedom have an average per capita income of $26,100 compared to $2,800 for nations in the bottom fifth. Economic freedom benefits the lives of all people including the poor. In nations in the top fifth of economic freedom, the average income of the poorest 10 percent of the population was $6,877 compared to just $823 in the least free nations.


Economic Freedom and the Millennium Challenge Account

Economic Freedom and Economic Growth

Many economists have long argued that economic growth and poverty reduction require an economic policy that encourages economic freedom. This report provides plenty of empirical evidence of that.

For example, countries with the highest levels of economic freedom in 2002 had growth rates 1.5 times those of all the others on average in the last decade. Those with the lowest levels of economic freedom actually had negative economic growth ? a shocking statistic during a period in world history of relative calm and prosperity.

Rising Living Standards and Better Policies

Not only does greater economic freedom go hand in hand with economic growth, it benefits people in immediate and tangible ways. Comparing the countries whose economic freedom places them in the top fifth with the countries in the bottom fifth:

- incomes are nine times greater;
- life expectancy is more than 22 years longer;
- adult literacy is almost 17 percentage points higher;
- infant mortality is nine times lower; and
- people are 36 percent more likely to have access to treated water in countries with high economic freedom ratings.

This report also shows real progress in improving economic freedom: There has been an overall increase in mean economic freedom scores over the last twenty years, with specific improvements around the world. For example, there are:

- more stable monetary policies with lower inflation;
- lower marginal tax rates;
- fewer foreign exchange controls;
- fewer capital market and interest rate controls; and
- lower barriers to international trade.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
It has been proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that on average, the more economically free a country is, the more prosperous it will be. I would like to know, what makes you think this trend would reverse as government gets its hands off an economy more and more?




we have a BALANCE in this country, not total economic freedom...you have no idea what would happen if we did.

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Invisiblerogue_pixie
faerydae
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2939894 - 07/29/04 09:54 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I think ancalagon is missing the main point, in order for a country to prosper it will affect the rest of the world as a whole and send it hurtling into an even more out of balance injust world.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Invisiblerogue_pixie
faerydae
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2939899 - 07/29/04 09:57 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

You've got that right, only it is a fact that there ARE enough resources in the world to go around and give everyone a decent standard of living if the wealth was distributed equally. Unfortunately, as long as capitalism still exists, there will always be deperately poor people and a small minority of filthy stinking rich people.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2939901 - 07/29/04 09:57 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

The links I provided are for the entire world, not for this country alone. They show that economic freedom and prosperity/growth are directly related. You have yet to answer my question: Seeing as the studies I have posted are absolute fact, and as economic freedom increases so does the prosperity of a nation, what leads you to believe this trend would reverse at Point X? What is point X?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
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Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2939902 - 07/29/04 09:57 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

without regulation, corporations would rape the people. look how conditions were in the early 20th century.

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Invisiblerogue_pixie
faerydae
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Posts: 3,977
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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2939906 - 07/29/04 09:58 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Haha, corporations already DO rape and exploit the people.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
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Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2939909 - 07/29/04 09:59 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
The links I provided are for the entire world, not for this country alone. They show that economic freedom and prosperity/growth are directly related. You have yet to answer my question: Seeing as the studies I have posted are absolute fact, and as economic freedom increases so does the prosperity of a nation, what leads you to believe this trend would reverse at Point X? What is point X?




im not exactly sure what point X is. but im telling you its there...people have a breaking point. total economic freedom would divide the classes and cause class warfare.

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Invisiblerogue_pixie
faerydae
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Registered: 07/28/04
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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2939915 - 07/29/04 10:00 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

The classes are already very much divided.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
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Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2939921 - 07/29/04 10:01 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

what does corporate malfeasance have to do with
what Ancalagon is saying?

does 'economically free' imply ZERO market oversight
or legal regulation?

I don't think it does.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Invisiblerogue_pixie
faerydae
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Registered: 07/28/04
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Loc: UK
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: afoaf]
    #2939928 - 07/29/04 10:02 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Corporations have everything to do with the economy, they practically run the world.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
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Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: afoaf]
    #2939929 - 07/29/04 10:02 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

i thought that was part of a totally free economy, free from regulation...let the market decide

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OfflineAncalagon
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Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2939937 - 07/29/04 10:05 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I suppose you would be in favor of all the capitalist-pig corporations being forced to pull their sweatshops out of developing third world countries?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Invisiblerogue_pixie
faerydae
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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2939945 - 07/29/04 10:08 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I don't think any decent, sane human being would not be in favour of such an occurrence.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2939949 - 07/29/04 10:09 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

rogue_pixie said:
Even if it did benefit the citizens more, it would be at the expense of other peoples lives and well being. The rich get richer while the poor keep on getting poorer.




Except in almost all relatively economically free countries where the rich get richer AND the poor get richer.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
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Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2939951 - 07/29/04 10:09 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

do you really think what those corporations are doing is right?? should we exploit people so we can have cheaper products?

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Invisiblerogue_pixie
faerydae
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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2939960 - 07/29/04 10:11 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I don't believe people should be richer than others in the first place, so this is all, really quite irrelevant to me.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
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Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2939966 - 07/29/04 10:12 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

rogue_pixie said:
I don't believe people should be richer than others in the first place, so this is all, really quite irrelevant to me.




thats pretty communist...i believe if u work harder u should achieve more...i think everyone should start with an equal chance to succeed though

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Invisiblerogue_pixie
faerydae
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Registered: 07/28/04
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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2939972 - 07/29/04 10:14 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

The world lacks compassion, which is our major downfall.
Whilst the greedy bastards continue to support such indecent crimes against humanity and continue to support slave labour we are all doomed.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Invisiblerogue_pixie
faerydae
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2939982 - 07/29/04 10:15 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not a dirty commie! :smile: I'm leaning toward anarchy, actually.
I too believe that we should all have an equal chance in life, something that does not exist at the moment.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
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Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2939984 - 07/29/04 10:16 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

yes corporation are insanely greedy, do commit terrible human rights abuses and prevent unions in 3rd world countries thorugh violence. we need reform. however if someone works harder than someone else they shouldnt be paid the same.

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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2939990 - 07/29/04 10:17 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

rogue_pixie said:
I don't think any decent, sane human being would not be in favour of such an occurrence.



Very unfortunate you would say that. I'm afraid a tremendous amount of third world citizens would be absolutely devestated to lose those relatively well-paying and abundant jobs.

Third world sweatshops

"Low-Wage Costa Ricans Make Baseballs for Millionaires."

That was the headline on one of those New York Times "news" stories that continued its recent tradition of disguised editorials. The headline said it all but the story ran on and on anyway, with details and quotes that added nothing to the familiar story that Third World workers don't earn nearly as much money as most Americans, even when they work for rich American companies.

Perhaps the best refutation of the implied message of this "news" story also appeared in the New York Times, in a frankly labeled op-ed piece by the paper's own Nicholas D. Kristof. Writing from Cambodia, Kristof reported: "Here in Cambodia factory jobs are in such demand that workers usually have to bribe a factory insider with a month's salary just to get hired."

The workers in Cambodia receive even lower wages than those in Costa Rica. But the difference is that the report from Cambodia spelled out what the local workers' alternatives were and how anxious they are to get the jobs denounced by intellectuals and politicians in affluent countries.

"Nhep Chanda averages 75 cents a day for her efforts. For her, the idea of being exploited in a garment factory -- working only six days a week, inside instead of in the broiling sun, for up to $2 a day -- is a dream."

By and large, multinational companies pay about double the local wages in Third World countries. As for "exploitation," the vast majority of American investment overseas goes to high-wage countries, not low-wage countries.

Why are these international capitalists passing up supposedly golden opportunities for exploitation? Because they understand economics better than most intellectuals and politicians, who are content to score cheap points, without worrying about the logic or the consequences.

If outsiders succeed in pressuring or forcing multinational companies to pay higher wages, that will make it more economical for those companies to relocate many of their operations to more affluent countries, where the higher productivity of the workers there will cover the higher wage rates.

Net result: Third World workers will be worse off for having lost better jobs than most of them can find locally. Meanwhile, Western intellectuals and politicians will be congratulating themselves for having ended exploitation.

At the heart of all this is a confusion between the vagaries of fate and the sins of man. All of us wish that workers in Costa Rica and Cambodia, not to mention other poor countries, were able to earn higher pay and live better lives. But wishing will not make it so and causing them to lose their jobs will not help.

It is tragic that people in some societies simply have not had the same opportunities to develop more valuable skills and that those societies have not had economic and political systems that promote economic progress comparable to that in most Western countries.

Low pay is one symptom of that fact -- and changing the symptom will not change the underlying problem, which is that the people in such countries got a raw deal from fate, history, geography or culture. But the left attempts to blame Western employers who are providing these workers with better options than they had before.

The left-wing spin is that the poor are poor because the rich are rich. That opens the door for a big power-grab by the left in the name of "fairness" or "social justice" or whatever other rhetoric resonates with the unwary and the ill-informed.

Unfortunately, this theory does not also resonate with the facts. Whether domestically or internationally, investors looking for the highest rates of return usually steer clear of poor areas and put their money where there are people with more advanced skills, living in more prosperous countries, even if they have to pay much higher salaries in such countries.

The United States, for example, has long invested more in Canada than in all of poverty-stricken sub-Saharan Africa, where wage rates are a fraction of Canadian wage rates. If the facts mattered -- and if the poor really mattered to their supposed saviors -- the implications of that would have been understood long ago.

-----------------------------------------------

Economics is not a zero-sum game. It would do you well to learn that.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Invisiblerogue_pixie
faerydae
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2939999 - 07/29/04 10:20 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I can see this turning into a debate about anarchism, I'd better run now....But money is the root of evil, sorry about that clich? but I do believe that is is. Putting value upon things - everything that we do is valued, without money humans die, they die every day from starvation and easily cureable diseases. They die because of the way in which we live. It's because of their suffering that we are able to lead such comfortable lifestyles and that really makes me quite sick.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
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Posts: 27,397
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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2940000 - 07/29/04 10:21 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

i dont think you are well educated in the area of sweatshops...not to insult you...but ive read countless papers, been to lectures and wrote essays on them..if you knew what really went on, you would be very suprised...it would take me awhile to layout the points

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Invisiblerogue_pixie
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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2940022 - 07/29/04 10:25 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Where are you finding all of this bullshit propaganda from?

Of course they are not better off under our thumb, they may even believe that they are because they have been forced to become dependant upon our corporations - that I won't deny. Rightly so, you take them away and they may well be much worse off.

The solution is simple, to give them their land back, give them their wealth back in order for them to build their society. As long as we are in there exploiting them, they will always remain desperately poor and struggling to survive.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


Edited by rogue_pixie (07/29/04 10:25 AM)

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940024 - 07/29/04 10:25 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

But money is the root of evil, sorry about that clich? but I do believe that is is




Money hasn't the ability to be evil, people are the root of all evil. Don't blame the money.


--------------------

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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2940028 - 07/29/04 10:25 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

By all means, grace me with your knowledge. Just note, I never said a sweatshop was a good place to spend a day, nor did I say I would choose to work in a sweatshop given the opportunity. The article merely points out that western corporations provide significantly better employment opportunities for third world denizens then do local employers. What is wrong with that?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2940035 - 07/29/04 10:28 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

People are evil yes, as I said earlier, the problem is that we lack compassion. But I also believe money to be part of the problem.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2940040 - 07/29/04 10:30 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

let me give you a little idea of how these companies work:

- a company lets it be known that they are looking to setup shop in a 3rd world countries

- countries, usually under the control of brutal dictatorships send out brochures with pictures of their native people ...they brag that they have no unions, no regulations, and low taxes

- corporations setup shop, factories are dangerous there are no saftey regulations, workers are routinely maimed and killed. textile and tanning industry workers must retire around age 30 because they are so damaged from inhaling fumes and such.

- the pay is so little that many people cant afford their own homes. corps setup giant warehouse dorms, full of vermin and leaks.

- if anyone dares to attempt to setup a union, they disapear..there are many accounts of people ceasing to exist after they even propose to unite.

- most workers put in 12-14 hour days and are paid below the level of subsistance

those are just a few points...do u really think we should be paying kids 25cents a week to sew nikes?

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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940041 - 07/29/04 10:30 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Money is a tool, a medium of exchange. Getting rid of money would not get rid of envy, greed or power lust.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940046 - 07/29/04 10:31 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Many humans are compassionate, some are not. You have no right to FORCE them to be 'compassionate.' In my mind, all sense of 'compassion' dissipates once force is initiated.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940047 - 07/29/04 10:31 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

the problem is that we lack compassion




Compassion is relative. I have compassion for those that try things and fail.

Quote:

But I also believe money to be part of the problem




explain to me how money has the ability to be part of any problem. Like I said there's nothing wrong with money rather the people who handle it.


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2940049 - 07/29/04 10:31 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Give them their independence back, so that they can build their own corporations and exploit cunts like you. :smirk:


--------------------
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Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940059 - 07/29/04 10:33 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

you're not going to last here long if you continue to call people cunts.


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2940063 - 07/29/04 10:33 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, I wasn't being very clear, I don't blame money literally, it's the capitalist system that I'm against.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940064 - 07/29/04 10:33 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Believe we have a no flaming policy here, buddy... and you desperately need to read up on some non-Marxist economics.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2940066 - 07/29/04 10:34 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Third World Jobs
Companies in the Untied States have been moving factory assembly line jobs outside of the country in search of cheaper labor. Today most jobs in the U.S.A. are in the tertiary or service sector. Multi-National companies are exploiting workers around the world, paying them in one week much less than most Americans make in an hour. Increasingly this third world factory workforce is being made up of young women. These women as a result of their work face not only monetary problems; their own family often times looks them down upon.
Corporations are constantly looking for ways they can produce their products cheaper. They seek to move their manufacturing operations to countries that have no minimum wage, are lax on labor laws and have no unions. Employees at the corporate factories are paid barely what it costs to live in their home country. Many items that we take for granted such as pop, candy or American cigarettes can cost half a days pay. Most workers end up living in slums or company provided dormitories. The dormitories, even though they are built and maintained by the corporations are filthy and over-crowded.
Overwhelmingly the workforce in foreign owned factories all over the third world is made up of women. The multi-national companies look to hire women in their teens and twenties who still have energy to work grueling hours. According to an interview with a factory foreman in the article Life on the Global Assembly Line, men are more likely than women to quit a tedious low paying assembly line job or sabotage their machines. It is also acceptable in most third world countries to pay women less than men. The factory worker women are often laid off in their late twenties because of health problems they have acquired from work or because they have seniority and are making too much money. After being laid off, many women turn to prostitution.
Women not only face terrible conditions at the factory, there are also problems on the home front. Factory worker women, who are independent from their father or other males, are thought of as sluts and whores. The companies provide classes to for the women to learn how to apply make-up. In more conservative cultures, women who wear make-up appear ?loose? to men. This makes it much harder for worker women to find a husband.
The authors of the article Life on the Global Assembly Line refer to the third world countries as pimps and the multi-national corporations as johns. This is because the third world governments try to sell their country?s women to the corporations. The government sends the companies brochures, explaining why their native women workers would best suit the corporation?s needs. The third world governments are running their countries like giant brothels.
As long as the United States and other developed countries keep allowing their corporations to move their factories to un-developed countries, workers will be exploited. It is a shame that governments willingly exploit their people for minor monetary gain. How much longer will we tolerate our companies destroying the lives of people overseas for profit? Unfortunately I believe that because of our county?s greed, there won?t be any public outcry or boycotts to stop these multi-national corporations from exploiting people

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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2940073 - 07/29/04 10:35 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I jest, I jest.

Honest guv.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2940086 - 07/29/04 10:37 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not a Marxist and I don't need to read up on any flawed, biased facts and figures to conclude that the world is unjust.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940090 - 07/29/04 10:38 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Life is unjust, learn how to adapt.


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940095 - 07/29/04 10:39 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

You would have made a good Borg.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2940099 - 07/29/04 10:40 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

some have no option to adapt...should people live like slaves so we can live like kings?

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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2940103 - 07/29/04 10:40 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Life doesn't have to be.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2940106 - 07/29/04 10:41 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

You would have made a good Klingon.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2940117 - 07/29/04 10:43 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

im not suggesting we give money to poor people just because they are poor...we just can't continue down the same path. where is the line drawn?

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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940120 - 07/29/04 10:43 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

the sky doesn't have to be blue, but it is. Denying what life is is akin to hiding your head in the sand and demanding it to change.


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2940123 - 07/29/04 10:44 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

The first thing we need to establish here is whether or not people actually care about the wellbeing of their fellow humanbeings and the state in which humanity is in. If they don't - like some here have clearly shown, it's a waste of precious time and energry.


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Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940129 - 07/29/04 10:45 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

exactly, compassion and an archaic revival are essential to our future on this planet

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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940132 - 07/29/04 10:46 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The first thing we need to establish here is whether or not people actually care about the wellbeing of their fellow humanbeings




most people care about their fellow human beings. It's just there are others who want them to actually contribute instead of sitting on their asses with their hands out.


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2940133 - 07/29/04 10:46 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
the sky doesn't have to be blue, but it is. Denying what life is is akin to hiding your head in the sand and demanding it to change.




That's the kind of defeatist, apathetic attitude that will be the death of us all (but I suppose you don't much care).


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2940140 - 07/29/04 10:47 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Discussion is all part of the process, we need to get those cogs a turnin' first!


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940143 - 07/29/04 10:48 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

That's the kind of defeatist, apathetic attitude that will be the death of us all (but I suppose you don't much care).




On the contrary, I adapt to my environment, I'm a realist. That doesn't mean that I treat my fellow man any worse. A please don't pretend that you know what I care about.


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2940145 - 07/29/04 10:48 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

i dont think people in 3rd world countries working 14hours a day sewing nikes want to sit on their asses with their hands out...they just dont have a chance... can u imagine working an eighty hour week and still not even being able to afford a snickers bar?

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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2940162 - 07/29/04 10:52 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

for every sweat shop that is beating workers and otherwise
treating them poorly, there are probably 5 others filled with
people who are grateful to have a job and some income.

maybe the people in costa rica work for what would appear
to be small change to us in america, but that money buys
a lot of lobster and casado in their country.

if you don't like corporate sweatshop labor and the way they
treat their workers, I'm sure you'll stop buying your abercrombie
pants, your gap shirts and your nice new sneakers.


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2940166 - 07/29/04 10:52 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

i dont think people in 3rd world countries working 14hours a day sewing nikes want to sit on their asses with their hands out




Did I say that? I don't think there should ever be sweat shops. How did you come up withy this analogy? I'm referring to thos that want to sit on their asses and bitch that they aren't making the same amount as the guy who works hard and earns his/her money.


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2940169 - 07/29/04 10:53 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

That's the difference between you and I. Whilst you are happy to settle for your lot and let the people in power fuck you and the world over good and proper, with your so very down to earth "realist" attitude, which you know, that's all fine. But don't knock others who are actually striving to do something about it.


--------------------
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Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2940184 - 07/29/04 10:56 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Quote:

i dont think people in 3rd world countries working 14hours a day sewing nikes want to sit on their asses with their hands out




Did I say that? I don't think there should ever be sweat shops. How did you come up withy this analogy? I'm referring to thos that want to sit on their asses and bitch that they aren't making the same amount as the guy who works hard and earns his/her money.




well i think we both agree that welfare moms popping out babies to make money are a drain on our society. welfare needs to be reformed, for sure.

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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2940193 - 07/29/04 10:59 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Welfare mums aren't the problem. The real drains on the world are the people in power, sucking the Earth and its resources dry.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940195 - 07/29/04 10:59 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

That's the difference between you and I. Whilst you are happy to settle for your lot and let the people in power fuck you and the world over good and proper, with your so very down to earth "realist" attitude, which you know, that's all fine. But don't knock others who are actually striving to do something about it.




So you know me know eh? I never settle and when exactly did I knock someone?

What are YOU doing about it? hmmm? All I see from you so far is that the people in the world that work hard should support those that don't (and I'm not reffering to those that are genuinlly poor). Personally I don't think you are doing anything about the world you live in. When I see someone power fucking someone, I find ways to deal with that asshole by NOT doing that when I get into a position of power. You remind me a lot of Doctor J in the way that when confronted with a challenge it's better to not be challenged then to actually do something about it.

But i'm basing my observations on your posts


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940199 - 07/29/04 11:00 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

uh oh, there's a new liberal on the board.

time for the conservatives to throw one of their famous 'blanket parties'.

fresh fish

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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2940207 - 07/29/04 11:02 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I agree, I DO NOT like people bitching in this country about how shitty life is when they make no effort to better themselves. It kills me when I see someone on welfare because they are honestly having a hard time in life (I am all for helping those people). I am not for free handouts. If this society was like the caveman days that person with his/her hand out would be dead along side of the road.


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2940213 - 07/29/04 11:04 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I don't think he is a Liberal as much as an Anarchist.


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2940215 - 07/29/04 11:05 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
I agree, I DO NOT like people bitching in this country about how shitty live is when they make no effort to beeter themselves.  It kills me when I see someone on welfare because they are honestly having a hard time in life (I am all for helping those people).  I am not for free handouts.  If this society was like the caveman days that person with his/her hand out would be dead along side of the road.




exactly, fiscal conservatives have SOME good ideas..however their views on social issues make me sick. i wish some party had a good balance...fact is, both parties are controlled by the special interests :frown:

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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940218 - 07/29/04 11:06 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

What would a realistically ideal world look like to you? I say realistically because I would consider myself an Anarchist in fantasy-land. If human beings did not have the tendency to initiate force and fraud against one another, there would be absolutely no need for government in my mind. Unfortunately that is not how the world works. Anarchy would not long endure with humans as they are.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2940222 - 07/29/04 11:07 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

There always has to be one, every time, who asks "what are you doing about it?". I don't see how it's relevant to the discussion but I do participate in a lot of activism - for the record.

What I said was based on your post aimed toward me about "burying my head in the sand".


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2940223 - 07/29/04 11:07 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

both parties are controlled by the special interests




Unfortunatly that is true.

Quote:

fiscal conservatives have SOME good ideas..however their views on social issues make me sick




give me a short example if you don't mind


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2940224 - 07/29/04 11:07 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
What would a realistically ideal world look like to you? I say realistically because I would consider myself an Anarchist in fantasy-land. If human beings did not have the tendency to initiate force and fraud against one another, there would be absolutely no need for government in my mind. Unfortunately that is not how the world works. Anarchy would not long endure with humans as they are.




agreed  :thumbup: anarchy is unfortunatly not a realistic option

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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2940227 - 07/29/04 11:08 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:



exactly, fiscal conservatives have SOME good ideas..however their views on social issues make me sick. i wish some party had a good balance...fact is, both parties are controlled by the special interests



Where you wrote 'fiscal conservatives', did you mean Republicans? No social positions are implied when someone is referred to as a fiscal conservative so it is erroneous to say that their social issues make you sick.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2940237 - 07/29/04 11:11 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Who else here is an anarchist?

I'm a girlywhirly.


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940238 - 07/29/04 11:11 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

There always has to be one, every time, who asks "what are you doing about it?".




yet you claim others aren't because they don't participate in your "activism". hmmmph.

I have no problem calling people out on this. Apparantly there are others who have asked you the same thing since you seem to be full of ideas but no solutions. (short of giving all our possesions away)


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2940243 - 07/29/04 11:12 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

give me a short example if you don't mind




social issues conservative republicans promote that make me sick:

- censorship
- abortion
- stem cell research
- drug laws (real liberals want decrim and legalization)
- gay marriage
- religion + gov't (republican party in texas have adopted the statement that we ARe a christian country into theit platform)
- enviroment

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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2940256 - 07/29/04 11:16 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Patience, my dear! I'm busy with a lot of other topics.

If you have any questions about my beliefs feel free to ask and I will answer them as best as I can. :smile:


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2940258 - 07/29/04 11:17 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

You can be fiscally conservative without being socially conservative. An example, The Log Cabin Republicans.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2940267 - 07/29/04 11:20 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

censorship - PMRC (Parent Music Resourse Center) Headed m=by Tipper Gore. Don't be fooled, both sides want censorship

abortion - Abortion is a 50/50 debate with both sides having their points.

stem cell research - This is where I think the republicans are way off base.

drug laws - (real liberals want decrim and legalization) - Where are these "real" Liberals? Real Republicans would be against drug laws as well. Neither side has "real" anything

gay marriage - I'm up in the air with this one but I don't have a prob with Gay people (even though it disgusts me)

religion + gov't (republican party in texas have adopted the statement that we ARe a christian country into their platform) - You also have to include the Leftist push to eliminate Religion from most social activities.

enviroment - (not really a social issue) This is a funny one because I would never consider myself Left leaning and have many friends in the same boat as I. They all love the environment and things to make it cleaner, but what many Liberals lack in this topic is common sense. One only has to look at how California is affecting the Fishing sport within it's state.


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Evolving]
    #2940272 - 07/29/04 11:22 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

im am however not totally fiscally conservative...i believe in a balance, the extreme fiscal left is communism the extreme right is total libretarianism...i think a balance is ideal

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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940278 - 07/29/04 11:23 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

oh please.... :rolleyes:


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2940295 - 07/29/04 11:27 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

What? I thought you were interested.


--------------------
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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940321 - 07/29/04 11:33 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I was referring to your self importance.

I'll bite. What are your beliefs?

Social issues
Private issues
Healthcare issues
Defense issues
Constitutional Issues

actually pick anyone you want. We can discuss it here through a new thread or IM.


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2940338 - 07/29/04 11:37 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

im am however not totally fiscally conservative...i believe in a balance, the extreme fiscal left is communism the extreme right is total libretarianism...i think a balance is ideal



Completely balanced? A very compelling case can be made for much more of an inclination to the right than to the left on fiscal issues, as the initial study I posted showed.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2940447 - 07/29/04 12:06 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

im am however not totally fiscally conservative...i believe in a balance, the extreme fiscal left is communism the extreme right is total libretarianism...i think a balance is ideal



Completely balanced? A very compelling case can be made for much more of an inclination to the right than to the left on fiscal issues, as the initial study I posted showed.




I think that both communism and capitalism are too idealistic to work out in real life in their pure forms. The success of our current society is a testament to the value of balance, as I dont believe we have ever been 100% capitalist or 100% communist. Though the pendulum does tend to swing to and fro in the course of time.

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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2940572 - 07/29/04 12:43 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Self Importance? Why? I am important, like everyone else.

Anyhow, I was referring more to any specific questions you had in mind.


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"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2940578 - 07/29/04 12:46 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:gay marriage - I'm up in the air with this one but I don't have a prob with Gay people (even though it disgusts me)




Why does it disgust you?

Bet you wouldn't say no to seeing a bit of girl on girl action.  :wink:


--------------------
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Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940627 - 07/29/04 12:59 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Why does it disgust you?




Because I like women

Quote:

Bet you wouldn't say no to seeing a bit of girl on girl action.




2 women make me twice as happy.


--------------------

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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2940640 - 07/29/04 01:02 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

So would it be okay for lesbians to marry but not gay men?


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940674 - 07/29/04 01:10 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I don't care what they do really. Even the gay men. The fact still remains how I feel about the act of being gay (men). What's your point?


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2940678 - 07/29/04 01:11 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

all men should be gay...then i could s3xxx0r all the bitches

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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2940680 - 07/29/04 01:12 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I think it's incredibly hypocritical.


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940685 - 07/29/04 01:14 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

What's hypocritical?


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2940690 - 07/29/04 01:15 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

all men should be gay...then i could s3xxx0r all the bitches




wouldn't that make you gay then?


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2940694 - 07/29/04 01:15 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

The fact that you think gay sex is disgusting but not lesbian sex, it just doesn't add up. There's nothing digusting about any of it, it's part of life, deal with it like a proper realist.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940727 - 07/29/04 01:22 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The fact that you think gay sex is disgusting but not lesbian sex, it just doesn't add up




I find sex with women when they're on their period discusting as well. Does that make me a hypocrite because I still want to have sex with them? Try again ace.

Quote:

There's nothing digusting about any of it, it's part of life, deal with it like a proper realist.




that's your opinion and you're entitled to it, just like a realist. It is part of life but then again so is sweatshps, rape, murder, pedaphilia, and beastility. You see in the real world we have the right to accept things even though we don't agree with it. I have no problem with people being gay, just don't expect me to support or understand it.


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2940741 - 07/29/04 01:25 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it...

Just remember, gay people have just as much rights as anyone else.


--------------------
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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940744 - 07/29/04 01:27 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Just remember, gay people have just as much rights as anyone else.




no shit.  WHO ever said that they don't?  I think you're looking for a fights that aren't there. :rolleyes:


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2940767 - 07/29/04 01:32 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Then for that I apologise, it was just your comment about being "up in the air" about gay marriage.


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940790 - 07/29/04 01:36 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Marriage is a religious thing for a lot of couples so I see their point but then again I figure if two *shivers* guys are in love they should be able get married. The problem is is that many feel this tramples on their religious beliefs that they have a right to have.


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2941617 - 07/29/04 05:25 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I still have no idea how you could call yourself an anarchist. You believe that everyone should have the same ammount of money and that everyone should be compassionate and treat every nicely.

That really isn't anarchy at all, its either socialism or utopianism which is a fairly tale regardless.

As Invet brought up, human nature is predominantly un-changing. Like the sky being blue you will just have to live with it. This as Invert pointed out is realism not defeatism. When are people with views such as yours going to wake up from the dream world they've trapped themselves in.


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: d33p]
    #2941717 - 07/29/04 06:04 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

It sounds to me like you are trying to tell me what I believe in now. How strange. Typical you should passively label me as a "dreamer" like the rest of the flock because I have a radical viewpoint. You're being very ignorant.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2941817 - 07/29/04 06:38 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I'd have to agree with him, at least in part, until you explain otherwise. You claim to be an anarchist(that is a believer in anarchy, the absence of government, correct?), yet you would see everyone be equal(as far as opportunity goes, at the very least). HOW would everyone have equal opportunity without some central power(which would have to be called 'government') forcing it upon people? The nature of humans is NOT to find a middle ground for the whole species so that everyone has the same as everyone else. On the contrary, the nature of humans is to attempt to get ahead, sometimes at the expense of others. I ask again, what would your realistic ideal world look like?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2941992 - 07/29/04 07:33 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

LOL.

I picture society like in a role playing game such as final fantasy or zelda 64. villages, of course.


--------------------
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Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2942034 - 07/29/04 07:48 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

There you have it folks!

And you can't just lump all the Final Fantasy's together...there are some Sci-Fi FFs too.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2942055 - 07/29/04 07:58 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

It's 3:00am in the morning for christs sakes.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2942073 - 07/29/04 08:05 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Not here, and here is what counts!


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2943584 - 07/30/04 05:09 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I don't think I can take you seriously. Which is probably for the best.

What are your political or unpolitical beliefs? if any.


--------------------

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Edited by Innvertigo (07/30/04 06:27 AM)

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